Sniper Training - A Flawed Concept and How to Improve It

[Arcanimus]

one literally forces you to energy cap for a period of time, and the other forces brew usage on the GCD when you likely don't even need it. Again, the problem are those talents, not that Monks are especially burdened by them.

Energy capping is NOT a DPS loss, as all chi spenders have higher DPET than builders. In the case of BRM, you use it as a defensive cooldown and it does it gloriously: you stack up craptons of Shuffle and/or toss out Breath of Fires/Spam Purify for heavy damage. In the case of MW, you can literally use it to regen mana and burst heal.

As for Bear, I don't see any legitimate downside to any of the lv100 talents. Each of them is suited for different situations. I do have to say though, that Bristling Fur is incredibly weak, especially compared to Pulverize.

[Libertarian]

Is there any other class in the game where mastery is literally good or useless depending on a situation? And I'm not talking about some use. I am talking about zero.

[Delekii]

Energy capping is NOT a DPS loss, as all chi spenders have higher DPET than builders. In the case of BRM, you use it as a defensive cooldown and it does it gloriously: you stack up craptons of Shuffle and/or toss out Breath of Fires/Spam Purify for heavy damage. In the case of MW, you can literally use it to regen mana and burst heal.

As for Bear, I don't see any legitimate downside to any of the lv100 talents. Each of them is suited for different situations. I do have to say though, that Bristling Fur is incredibly weak, especially compared to Pulverize.

DPET only means something if you are choosing between two abilities with equal availability of execution. The only time you would compare the DPET of a chi builder and a chi spender is if using the builder would cause you to use less spenders over the course of the fight. This is only the case if the builder would not build extra useable chi (ie: at the very end of a fight, or if you are going to chi cap as a result).

Basically, if you use a chi spender and spend time energy capped as a result, that is costing you potential chi spenders where you will instead sit at low energy without chi to spend.

[Verain]

Is there any other class in the game where mastery is literally good or useless depending on a situation? And I'm not talking about some use. I am talking about zero.

Against an enemy immune to magic, mutilate has no mastery (many pvp enemies become immune to magic temporarily).
Outside of eclipse, balance mastery is without meaning.

I'm sure there's plenty.

The bigger thing is, you can't break combat down into "parts where I'm holding still", "parts where I just moved but still have my mastery buff" and "parts where my mastery buff fell off", and then say MY MASTERY IS USELESS while gesturing to the third part. Sure, but it's fully active at all the OTHER times.




The hyperbole in this thread is pretty silly. Mastery turning on only some of the time is not at all unusual or rare. A mastery being a buff is rare, but definitely not unique.



The purpose of this is to punish one of the hunter specs by turning off one of their five offensive stats if they are unable to remain stationary to aim at least some fraction of the time, to reward them for being able to remain stationary. Traditionally this is done with whole buttons you can't use, such as frostbolt (unable to be used while moving), or eviscerate (unable to be used out of melee).

[Nakauri]

Here's the distance you can travel with Sniper Training before you have to stop in order to maintain 100% uptime. The long line is without aspect, the short line is how much you gain stance dancing with aspect.



edit; oh, I should note though, that you don't actually have to maintain 100% uptime. You can move farther than this depending on what you're going to cast. For example, instant casts, Focusing Shot and Aimed Shot can be shot at 0.5s and still get the benefit (depending on your haste at the time, of course). So the only time you'd actually be screwed is if you NEVER stopped to get the buff again, or if you misaligned a cast to fire right after it dropped (ie, using Aimed Shot @ 2.3s when there's 1.5s left on ST).

It's not really too annoying*, and some good PvP bonuses would involve lowering the time it takes for it to activate (from 3.0 to 1.5, for example) or extending how long it lasts (8~ from 6).

*it kind of is

[DeicideUH]

Against an enemy immune to magic, mutilate has no mastery (many pvp enemies become immune to magic temporarily).

That's a very bad example. How often does an enemy becomes immune to Mastery? A few seconds every minute for a DK? Or over 5 minutes for a Paladin? Besides, that's an enemy defensive ability, not really some condition forced on you. You can target another enemy and it will work just fine. Or you can take the time to do something else besides attacking.

Outside of eclipse, balance mastery is without meaning.

I don't understand a lot about druids, never got interested in playing one. How often is eclipse out? And how hard is to achieve it? How long it endures? I don't know, but I'd like to have that info.

The bigger thing is, you can't break combat down into "parts where I'm holding still", "parts where I just moved but still have my mastery buff" and "parts where my mastery buff fell off", and then say MY MASTERY IS USELESS while gesturing to the third part. Sure, but it's fully active at all the OTHER times.

You are right in that. But how often we will be able to sit still while the enemy is hacking our face? When the target is hugging a pillar? When the enemy team decides you are the most squishy target and two or three enemies decide to pound on you? If it's anything like in MoP, not very often. I literally move all the time in MoP. Since this Mastery has been released, I've been trying to move less, but once I'm targetted, it's pretty hard to hold still.

Traditionally this is done with whole buttons you can't use, such as frostbolt (unable to be used while moving), or eviscerate (unable to be used out of melee).

The melee example is bad, again. If you are a melee class and you are not in melee, you are not just wasting your Mastery, you are playing it wrong.

The mage example is also not quite the same. Yes, you can't cast Frostbolt, but your Elemental has a permanent bonus, and the Icicles endure for 30s, so you won't lose them soon after moving. Also, in the case that you are going to lose the Icicles, you can cast Ice Lance on the move and use all the stored damage, not making it go to waste.

Now imagine if those icicles' duration was just 8s or 10s, instead of 30s.

[Arcanimus]

DPET only means something if you are choosing between two abilities with equal availability of execution. The only time you would compare the DPET of a chi builder and a chi spender is if using the builder would cause you to use less spenders over the course of the fight. This is only the case if the builder would not build extra useable chi (ie: at the very end of a fight, or if you are going to chi cap as a result).

Basically, if you use a chi spender and spend time energy capped as a result, that is costing you potential chi spenders where you will instead sit at low energy without chi to spend.

You misunderstand the concept of the ability. It makes all chi spenders refund their full cost, meaning if you go into it with full Chi, you'll come out with full chi.
Being energy capped as a result of Serenity does not cost you any DPS by losing you chi builders, but instead gains you DPS by giving you free chi spenders.

Its best compared to a rogue with 5cp, 5x Anticipation and 100 energy, with all relevant DoT finishers and buffs active for a reasonable amount of time. You don't use additional CP builders in that situation to uncap energy, you use a finisher because they have higher DPET than CP builders. Under Serenity, essentially your "combo points" are instantly refunded, allowing you to use your highest DPET ability for 11s before using your lower DPET ability to spend energy.

And yes, 11s is correct because you net an extra use when it fades because you're chi capped and have to spend chi coming out of it before gaining more.

There is no downside to Serenity.

[Deleted]

It's just 3 seconds.. I agree that it will nerd a bit our super-mobility, but on the other hand it will create some depth to the spec. This isn't as bad as stutter stepping :P

[YeahNo]

There is no downside to Serenity.

Yes, there is. Energy capping. Energy capping is bad; just because it isn't a DPS loss to do so does not mean that you aren't wasting resources. KS is great DPET but you have to use it at low energy or you're wasting resources. I prefer talents that don't force you to waste resources to use them. Also, in what world do you live where you need to stack shuffle? It's basically a passive IME. Even in first-tier gear keeping it up when tanking wasn't challenging. I'm also skeptical that there'll be even one fight where Brewmasters will want to purify for 10 seconds straight. Can't argue with the fact that you could BoF for 10 seconds straight, but for a tanking CD, that's not exactly exciting.

By the way, that's what I'm suggesting MM Hunters do in this thread: complain. It's good to complain about the new mastery or talents. The problem is the class forum echo chamber effect where everybody just tends to agree that they have it worse than every other class, which is silly.

- - - Updated - - -

The hyperbole in this thread is pretty silly.

This is kind of where I'm at on the situation; honestly I think there are valid critiques and changes that can be made to the new mastery, but they're obscured by proclamations that MM will be total garbage unless the new mastery is scrapped.

[eschatological]

I actually have no problem with the mastery, it's the two talents I think are subpar.

[Anonymous1038853]

Absolutely great change, and it's honestly close to how casters should be designed, in my honest opinion. Hunters have absolutely nothing to complain about, because they are by far the most mobile damage class in the entire game. Enacting a trade-off between full mobility and full damage brings them in line with other classes, and that is a good design through and through.

[Deleted]

Yes, there is. Energy capping. Energy capping is bad; just because it isn't a DPS loss to do so does not mean that you aren't wasting resources. KS is great DPET but you have to use it at low energy or you're wasting resources.

Wasted resources doesn't mean anything as long as you use your highest damaging ability.

The perfect similarity is the current t16-4p-SV bonus, if you get LnL and you keep spamming ES, it doesn't matter if you cap focus as long as you keep using ES.

[Overlord Fordragon]

I, have, a dream!
Where Marksman hunters can get a decent Mastery!

Serious though, while I like the idea behind this, initally it will be the only mastery that forces playing conditions (you know, unless you count having to use deadly poison as mutrogue) it needs much deeper development and tweaks

[YeahNo]

Wasted resources doesn't mean anything as long as you use your highest damaging ability.

The perfect similarity is the current t16-4p-SV bonus, if you get LnL and you keep spamming ES, it doesn't matter if you cap focus as long as you keep using ES.

Oh good lord. Combat Rogues have been having this discussion forever. Wasting resources is bad. Just because your highest DPS option includes wasting resources, that doesn't defeat the point that wasting resources is objectively bad. It's bad design, and it feels shitty to play a spec that forces you to waste resources. The fact that this has been an ongoing discussion for other specs/classes only proves my point that there are other classes besides Hunters who have talents that are problematic.

For the umpteenth time: class forums will defend other class designs which are problematic while hollering to the high heavens about how bad their situation is. I think the solution is to stay out of class forums, since everyone apparently loves the echo chamber.

[jSewell]

They should make one of the hunter pvp set bonuses make Sniper Training either last longer it require not moving for a shoter duration (or both)

[Bullettime]

They should make one of the hunter pvp set bonuses make Sniper Training either last longer it require not moving for a shoter duration (or both)

I imagine this is what they'll end up doing. They already have different PvP bonuses for different specs as well on the beta.

[jSewell]

I imagine this is what they'll end up doing. They already have different PvP bonuses for different specs as well on the beta.

Yeah, for the MM spec is what I meant. It feels almost necessary, a lot of set bonuses have been QoL buffs for pvp. I like the idea of the mastery, but standing still for 3 seconds for a 6 second buff seems a little harsh in pvp. Maybe 3 seconds for a 12 second buff or 1.5 seconds for a 6 second buff.

I wish they'd just make Piercing Shots the new mastery, but make the % of the crit scale as the bleed and stacking. May be hard to balance though.

[Nakauri]

The old Sniper Training lasted 15 seconds and was constantly counting down. It would refresh after 5 seconds of holding still, so you had 10 seconds of movement time. It also only applied to four abilities, so you didn't really care if you were using something else at the time. IE, if you had to do a lot of movement, you'd use arcane or cobra until you were stopped again.

The current Sniper Training reduces our movement time from 10s to 3s -a 70% reduction is nothing to scoff at. It's also more important to keep uptime on, since it affects every ability and synergizes with our Careful Aim/Aimed Shot perk/crit affiliation. The fact of the matter is, they originally took out Sniper Training because they felt it was "too clunky" and cumbersome as a passive. They've attached it to Marksmanship, where their number one concern was that Marksmanship felt "too clunky." On top of that, they've caused the ability to be at least 70% more clunky than it originally was.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Sniper Training. I think the new iteration is pretty cool too. But it has some major flaws they need to address. It wouldn't surprise me to see Marksmanship avoiding Mastery in favour of crit and multistrike instead.

I'd like some way to activate Sniper Training myself, with more instant feedback, than standing still for 3s. For example, if we had an ability that let us activate a 6 second long Sniper Training on a 30s cooldown, it would let us "set up" for our actual mastery. One that, preferably, lasted the original 15s duration of the first iteration. Having a button to activate a miniature version of our mastery might be strange, though.

[Libertarian]

The old Sniper Training lasted 15 seconds and was constantly counting down. It would refresh after 5 seconds of holding still, so you had 10 seconds of movement time. It also only applied to four abilities, so you didn't really care if you were using something else at the time. IE, if you had to do a lot of movement, you'd use arcane or cobra until you were stopped again.

The current Sniper Training reduces our movement time from 10s to 3s -a 70% reduction is nothing to scoff at. It's also more important to keep uptime on, since it affects every ability and synergizes with our Careful Aim/Aimed Shot perk/crit affiliation. The fact of the matter is, they originally took out Sniper Training because they felt it was "too clunky" and cumbersome as a passive. They've attached it to Marksmanship, where their number one concern was that Marksmanship felt "too clunky." On top of that, they've caused the ability to be at least 70% more clunky than it originally was.

Don't get me wrong, I liked Sniper Training. I think the new iteration is pretty cool too. But it has some major flaws they need to address. It wouldn't surprise me to see Marksmanship avoiding Mastery in favour of crit and multistrike instead.

I'd like some way to activate Sniper Training myself, with more instant feedback, than standing still for 3s. For example, if we had an ability that let us activate a 6 second long Sniper Training on a 30s cooldown, it would let us "set up" for our actual mastery. One that, preferably, lasted the original 15s duration of the first iteration. Having a button to activate a miniature version of our mastery might be strange, though.

I mean I honestly hate to say it, but I really think SWTOR got the "sniper training" idea right with the deployable cover system. But in the game, everything is balanced around it. But again it really doesn't address that it makes mastery completely useless during certain situations.

[Meleehunter]

Plain and simple.

Blizz needs to remove Sniper training from mastery ASAP.

Lone wolf take blinkstrikes place in 75 teir talents
Sniper training takes lone wolfs place in 100 talents
MM mastery changed to something fun/non movement based

That way all the clicking PvE players can have their precious Sniper training.