Sniper Training - A Flawed Concept and How to Improve It

[DeicideUH]

That's a pretty good analysis, Nakauri!

But then... what would Sniper Training affect? MM's state right now feels really sorry, because we only have Aimed Shot and Chimaera Shot as pure damage abilities. Steady Shot hits like a wet noodle and is used to build up focus. Kill Shot can't be used at will. Considering that, I'd think Sniper Training would effect only Aimed Shot and Steady Shot, with Chimaera and Kill Shot not being modified by it. MM lacks some resource to pool and release at the right times. It also lacks an instant cheap ability to cast when we can't afford to stop and cast Aimed Shot.

MM feels very incomplete right now.

[Nakauri]

But then... what would Sniper Training affect?

It's a real tough one, because it's not currently possible to replicate the same game play with how Marksmanship is right now.

Old Sniper training on Survival:
[Affected]: Black Arrow, Explosive Shot
[Not Affected]: Arcane Shot, Cobra Shot, Stings

Applying same ST logic on current Marks:
[Affected]: -(no BA equiv)-, Chimaera Shot
[Not Affected]: Aimed Shot, Steady Shot

It just wouldn't work. And in truth, the old Sniper Training affected Aimed Shot and Steady -- but then Marksmanship still had arcane shot and, technically, multishot being used at the time. But if we swapped that up to the current iteration..

ST logic on current Marks:
[Affected]: Aimed Shot, Steady Shot, Chimaera Shot
[Not Affected]: --

.. And it leaves us with the same problem that plagues beta.

I'd think Sniper Training would effect only Aimed Shot and Steady Shot, with Chimaera and Kill Shot not being modified by it. MM lacks some resource to pool and release at the right times. It also lacks an instant cheap ability to cast when we can't afford to stop and cast Aimed Shot.

While this is the main option, the strength of Sniper Training was in the focus dump options. Black Arrow on a 30s CD, Explosive shot on 6s, Arcane Shot as a focus dump and Cobra as a gain -- The CD's and main shots were on Sniper Training, which is why it was good. For that to work on Marks it would have to be Chimaera and Aimed, since those are the only similar abilities in their rotation priority. By restricting movement abilities with Chimaera and Kill Shot, we're not actually left with the dynamic option the original ST gave: an "always" option.

MM feels very incomplete right now.

Yes, I maintain that it desperately needs another active ability in some form.

[DeicideUH]

Yes, I maintain that it desperately needs another active ability in some form.

I am quite afraid about Hunter state right now. Blizzard talks a lot about druids and warriors, which received pretty major changes. Mages got a lot of talent changes as well. But they don't talk about any plans for Hunters at all. Most of their answers are about tuning yet to be made, and at the same time they appear to be close to the end of the designing stage and about to enter tuning stage. So I'm quite afraid that we will get a few damage boosts and focus adjustments, but not any big changes ahead.

[Mormolyce]

In PVP either:

1) Don't gear for mastery, or

2) Don't play MM.

[DeicideUH]

In PVP either:

1) Don't gear for mastery, or

2) Don't play MM.

Every spec should be viable. You are far from the first to say those options, and I'm tired of elaborating again and again on that.

[Deleted]

There is little reason for me to make a comment here, because whatever DeicideUH says, i totally agree.. I dont give a rats ass about PvE, my focus is in PvP only. I like your idea number 2. Mastery will still be great, and let us stand still for 3s, Bam, its like having a Wlock cast a chaos bolt:P

[Conjor]

Every spec should be viable. You are far from the first to say those options, and I'm tired of elaborating again and again on that.

You shouldn't draw the connection between a stat being useless in PvP and the spec itself being useless.

[Nnug]

You shouldn't draw the connection between a stat being useless in PvP and the spec itself being useless.

Not even useless, just rarely useful, but yes, the spec is not useless

[DeicideUH]

You shouldn't draw the connection between a stat being useless in PvP and the spec itself being useless.

I agree. The Mastery doesn't make the spec useless. But the rest of the package is not helping either. But I never said MM was useless. However, it is far worse than Surv and BM right now.

But don't compare MM with casters. Caster's defenses are based on low mobility. Hunter defenses are not. A Warlock can casr Chaos Bolt while having damage reduction up, or after a Fear or Horror. Hunters can't.

[Meleehunter]

Blizz needs to scrap Sniper Training, its that fucking simple... You cannot ask a hunter to stand still in PvP... What a joke.

[Arcanimus]

Blizz needs to scrap Sniper Training, its that fucking simple... You cannot ask a hunter to stand still in PvP... What a joke.

Give 1/3 the effect while moving. Problem solved.

[Mefistophelis]

A stat that is wasted and thus makes my effective ilvl be lower than the actual ilvl is the opposite of viable. It's the definition of gimped. It's like removing Warrior's rage generator skill and say: "Hey, you can still generate Rage from autoattacks! It's viable!"

Of course it doesn't make the whole class unviable. But it does make it needlessly harder to enjoy, and far less effective than it could be. Changing Mastery as I suggest in OP won't make the class neither "the best" nor overpowered. It will just make it better.

Didn't they change Mortal Strike for Arms from giving 30 rage to costing 20 rage ?

[DeicideUH]

Didn't they change Mortal Strike for Arms from giving 30 rage to costing 20 rage ?

I've not been following warrior changes closely, and they clearly are still experimenting with Warriors, because in each new patch you see them adding, removing and reversing things. Hard to say. Whatever they changed may be either be changed or reversed.

*Checks on Warrior changes*

But yeah, it's funny that they changed Mortal Strike from generating 10 rage to costing 20 since I gave that example. But you can't take that Mortal Strike change in a vacuum: they did try to compensate it by almost doubling rage generated by autoattacks and adding rage gained by taking damage from attacks, and they reduced the rage cost of some other abilities, so the Mortal Strike change is not exactly the same thing as the example I gave before.

They could possibly add something next patch that keeps Sniper Training as it is but makes my opinion change completely. The problem is: they are not talking about any plans for hunters at all and hunter changes have been very few. Just compare their work on warriors and druids lately. So they don't give me any reason to not worry that hunter state will change very little before release.

[Meleehunter]

Give 1/3 the effect while moving. Problem solved.

No not problem solved, Almost every other class benefits from 100% of their mastery 100% of the time...

Remove it now blizzard... Don't be so stupid...

[Arcanimus]

No not problem solved, Almost every other class benefits from 100% of their mastery 100% of the time...

No, the problem is that once you've exceeded the buff duration, until you have 3 seconds to stand still, mastery has a nil value, no matter how much you have. Giving even as little as 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 of the value while the buff is inactive will remedy this situation, and that's all I'm hoping for.

[Kazureus]

OR they could add a perk/glyph/pvp set bonus, to allow let's say Disengage to trigger Sniper Training instantly (or/and whenever you successfully trap someone), allowing short burst windows on demand, while making distance.

[Arcanimus]

OR they could add a perk/glyph/pvp set bonus, to allow let's say Disengage to trigger Sniper Training instantly (or/and whenever you successfully trap someone), allowing short burst windows on demand, while making distance.

The mechanical fix needs to be something not gated behind gear, and not come at the expense of other things.

[DeicideUH]

No, the problem is that once you've exceeded the buff duration, until you have 3 seconds to stand still, mastery has a nil value, no matter how much you have. Giving even as little as 1/4, 1/8, 1/16 of the value while the buff is inactive will remedy this situation, and that's all I'm hoping for.

Exactly. The important thing is for Mastery to have some value when you move (and that scales with your Mastery rating), even if that value is small.

[the_axi]

I don't think its that bad for PvP really, if you gear mainly haste and crit, its a nice boost in those moments you can just stand there aim away. The buff last 6 seconds too, so its not like you can't make some use of it even when you're forced to move. I suppose they could make Rapid Fire trigger the effect if they really needed too but MM killing power in PvP isn't all that bad.

Its also daft to compare damage output to classes like Warrior and Spriest because they are clearly broken right now.

[Meleehunter]

I can't believe that people actually think a partial benefit will fix things, I want to benefit from my mastery 100% of the time regardless of standing still/movement.
Sniper Training must be scrapped... Stop trying to come up with solutions that involve giving us a weak version of our mastery for PvP (Partial benefits... *Vomit*)