Sniper Training - A Flawed Concept and How to Improve It

[eschatological]

I can't believe that people actually think a partial benefit will fix things, I want to benefit from my mastery 100% of the time regardless of standing still/movement.
Sniper Training must be scrapped... Stop trying to come up with solutions that involve giving us a weak version of our mastery for PvP (Partial benefits... *Vomit*)

You seem rather alarmist. Not every class benefits from their mastery 100% of the time, not by a long shot. Blood DKs only benefit when they death strike, and can't maintain it 100%. Frost DKs only benefit on their mastery on HB/frost strike and not Obliterate, which really sucks for 2H frost. Boomkins only get benefit from their mastery when they're in eclipse. Only bleeds benefit from ferals mastery. Rdruids literally have a buff to maintain just like us to benefit at all from their mastery. Guess what they need to do to maintain it? Stand still and cast a direct heal. Even if you want to exclude the "partial masteries" which only benefit certain abilities of a spec (IE SV *and* BM's masteries), you have masteries like: Fury warriors only benefit from their mastery when Enraged. Rshamans and arcane mages have their masteries fluctuate based on percent health of the target/percent mana respectively. Maybe Arcane mages should argue they should have full benefit even when they're going OOM. Hell, have you seen a MW's mastery? It summons spheres which other players HAVE TO WALK THROUGH. Talk about being useless. Sub rogues mastery only benefits their finishers, assassination rogues only benefit their poison attacks, elemental shamans mastery is literally a %chance to summon a duplicate spell, so they only get 100% benefit from their mastery when they stack mastery to 100%.

Yet you insist we need to have a mastery which, and I quote, "benefits from 100% of their mastery 100% of the time..." So I ask...why? Our other two specs don't even benefit from 100% of their mastery 100% of the time.

[the_axi]

I want to benefit from my mastery 100%

Not all mastery work that way and when they do they tend to be crap anyway, i.e. Wild Quiver.

The premade I use has 8-10% mastery when geared mostly for haste and crit, having sniper training always active during Rapid Fire would be pretty useful for PvP even when not really geared for it.

[Mormolyce]

I can't believe that people actually think a partial benefit will fix things, I want to benefit from my mastery 100% of the time regardless of standing still/movement.

Try being a Sub Rogue, the only PVP-compatible Rogue spec, with a Mastery that affects SnD, which is a PITA to maintain for any length of time in PVP.

If your Mastery is shit for PVP then don't gear for it in PVP.

Or god forbid play a different spec in PVP. If all specs are equally PVP viable in WoD it'll be the first time in history...

[Arcanimus]

Try being a Sub Rogue, the only PVP-compatible Rogue spec, with a Mastery that affects SnD, which is a PITA to maintain for any length of time in PVP.

If your Mastery is shit for PVP then don't gear for it in PVP.

Or god forbid play a different spec in PVP. If all specs are equally PVP viable in WoD it'll be the first time in history...

I can give you horrible flashbacks and cower in terror with only two words:
Energetic
Recuperation

Also, Combat is PvP viable as well, and has nearly as the exact same situation, but without any benefit to SnD.

[DeicideUH]

Try being a Sub Rogue, the only PVP-compatible Rogue spec, with a Mastery that affects SnD, which is a PITA to maintain for any length of time in PVP.

Your Mastery also increases damage of Finishing Moves, so you do benefit of it even if Slice and Dice is not active. You sound as if the only benefit of your Mastery was to improve SnD, but that's just not true.

If your Mastery is shit for PVP then don't gear for it in PVP.

Will we have choices? Because as I hear from beta, all PvP weapons have Mastery on them.

Or god forbid play a different spec in PVP. If all specs are equally PVP viable in WoD it'll be the first time in history...

No one said "equally" viable. As long as specs are different there will always be the best one, the worst one and the middle ground one. I just would like the difference from best to worst to not be so noticiable.

[eschatological]

And like we've said before, MM will be viable in PvP. You just seem to have a stringent definition of viable which seems to include being able to get r1 with a spec. In which case, more than half the specs in the game aren't viable.

[DeicideUH]

And like we've said before, MM will be viable in PvP. You just seem to have a stringent definition of viable which seems to include being able to get r1 with a spec. In which case, more than half the specs in the game aren't viable.

Who are you replying to, exactly?

[eschatological]

A spec must be viable for PvP. There's a thin area between "the best" and "horrible" where MM can be.

But the problems is not how good a spec is for something. It's about designing a feature that essentially negates a stat under certain circunstances. Imagine if rogues could only crit while stealthed, for instance. The point is that Mastery rating must always have value, even if it's not the best stat.

You. You seem to be suggesting MM won't be viable for PvP. But that isn't the case. It's just worse than other options (CF fury for warriors, combat for rogues, arcane for mages, etc).

[DeicideUH]

You. You seem to be suggesting MM won't be viable for PvP. But that isn't the case. It's just worse than other options (CF fury for warriors, combat for rogues, arcane for mages, etc).

I never said MM was not viable (thought it's clearly the worst Hunter spec for PvP right now by far). I was replying to someone that said that "If one of the specs is subpar in PVP; that's not (by itself) a huge problem.", to which I countered with "a spec must be viable".

I also said in the same page, and in reply to you:

"Of course it doesn't make the whole class unviable. But it does make it needlessly harder to enjoy, and far less effective than it could be. Changing Mastery as I suggest in OP won't make the class neither "the best" nor overpowered. It will just make it better. "

[Orangetai420]

I love sniper training, it's something I've wanted in the game for ages.

To each their own (don't you ruin this for me!!!)

[c000]

I really don't like sniper training. it reminds me of that crappy sv talent they had a couple expacs ago, which was equally awful.

[Delekii]

And like we've said before, MM will be viable in PvP. You just seem to have a stringent definition of viable which seems to include being able to get r1 with a spec. In which case, more than half the specs in the game aren't viable.

The fact that there are other failures in the game doesn't mean that this failure shouldn't be addressed. MM is currently a viable (and popular) PvP spec that will be dysfunctional in PvP in WoD. It's not like Fury, Arcane or combat, because none of those specs have EVER been great in PvP. They should be - don't get me wrong - but people aren't currently used to using them with any great success in WoW PvP. MM is currently _THE_ pvp spec, and is turning into a spec that will be worse than any of the above for PvP in WoD. It's a different ballpark.

[Goondicker]

I hope they keep it. The extra range and double dipping on bonus will make it extremely strong for the last content patch in WoD, even in pvp.

[Deleted]

I hope they keep it. The extra range and double dipping on bonus will make it extremely strong for the last content patch in WoD, even in pvp.

Seriosly the dumbest thing ive read in a long time. Yes lets keep this shitty mastery that "might" be good in about a year. You will NEVER get to use the extra range in arenas. /Facepalm

[Muffinator]

I'm just confused when they say things like "We want to move away from flat bonus damage increases from mastery."

Yet arms warriors mastery is a flat % increase to mortal strike, colossus smash, and bloodthirst damage.


Why couldn't they make the mastery a % bonus to haste or damage while focus fire is up?

That benefits all crowds and even people who take sniper shot.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, the extra range bit is retarded.

At what point will we get the buff up, go "Oh! There's sniper training. I better back out to X yards because I've got extra range now and that's GOOD!"


And in pvp. We will NEVER benefit fully from that extra range. The second we're out of range for other ranged classes, they either run closer or run away, which makes US run away or run closer.

Stopping to build a buff that is a substantial part of our class is ridiculous.

This mastery is like rune of power for mages. STUPID!

[DeicideUH]

Also, the extra range bit is retarded.

At what point will we get the buff up, go "Oh! There's sniper training. I better back out to X yards because I've got extra range now and that's GOOD!"

And in pvp. We will NEVER benefit fully from that extra range. The second we're out of range for other ranged classes, they either run closer or run away, which makes US run away or run closer.

I agree.

I was so happy with the perk that increased range by 5. Removing it and giving us the extra range from Mastery does not compensate.

Stopping to build a buff that is a substantial part of our class is ridiculous.

This mastery is like rune of power for mages. STUPID!

Exactly.

[AlereanJr]

And like we've said before, MM will be viable in PvP. You just seem to have a stringent definition of viable which seems to include being able to get r1 with a spec. In which case, more than half the specs in the game aren't viable.

Well I guess we shouldn't bother then. As long as half the specs in the game are viable we're good! But then...isn't half the point of ability pruning making it easier to balance? WoD isn't even close to live...so I fail to see why they can't balance and iterate things that clearly have issues.

[Deleted]

Am i dumb for entering this thread and actually thinking it was about... Sniper Training?

[Illana]

still needs some passive effect when its not active otherwise it's just far too weak when we don't have it and we are op as hell when it is up.

[Meleehunter]

It flat out needs to be removed... Replaced by something like (Mastery: Bola Shot, #% chance on attack to trigger Bola Shot. Inflicting fire DoT.)