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  1. #21
    Let's get this out with since there still seems to be some confusion about RP:

    Fighting mobs and avoiding/not avoiding objects is not what defines Role Playing.

  2. #22
    So basically Blizz kinda sold out to the fad, Since everything is instant they made the gaming instant aswell.

  3. #23
    No flying debate: I think the RPG elements are quite obvious on this one, more time spent in the world with more people in the world. That's it, period. The other side is "why would I want to spend MORE time in the world, it's a waste of time! I just want to get to the action so I can have fun (raiding/PvP).
    Really? Not so obvious to me then. In the world where flight on mounts is already established it is suddenly disallowed, forcing a player into a different playstyle. And no, flying and enjoying your time spent in the world do not contradict themselves.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    I'll list a few examples to explain what I mean concisely.
    You're totally wrong in almost every point. So wrong in fact that you're probably confusing between terms or not really know what RPG means.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    No flying debate:
    Flying belongs in Azeroth. The air taxis were in the game from day one and any noob could use those. Flying mounts is just the idea of buying the damn mount instead of renting it. There's nothing that would be breaking immersion in this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    Class balance / homogenization: From a RPG perspective classes don't have to be balanced at all. Stone, paper, scissors.
    The "G" stands for game. Cooperative games need to be balanced for all players or they stop being fun. This is simple common sense. This is painfully obvious from the earliest pen & paper RPGs to WoW's current incarnation that when the classes aren't balanced some people are having fun and the others are not. Competitive game (PvP) would benefit from perfect imbalance but since that doesn't fly in PvE environment Blizzard devs need to aim for balance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    LFG/LFR: RPG's, the MMO variants at least, since conception were always very heavily focused on communication.
    Not really MMO just refers to a game with many players online at the same time. You can easily find hundreds of whineposts in both US and EU forums regarding mixed-language servers. In such environment you can't expect or assume people are willing or even able to communicate with each other. Since communication is not possible, the game (again for game fun) need to facilitate playing it without communication required as much as possible. You still can't do highest end PvP or PvE without communicating with people, but everything else is open as it should be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kazim View Post
    Flavor: When the game launched there were tons of things (spells, items, gear etc) that didn't really serve a purpose other than making the world feel real and deep. If you don't value RPG elements though, these are basically 100% useless, so why even have them in the game?
    There's more actual flavor in MoP than any other previous version of the game. There's consistent backstory, characters that fit into it and feel like they belong to the place where they live, items you can find in the open world that would come from the local creatures and so on. Old WoW was just a mess without any logic in the loot or environments, totally lacking consistency.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Let's get this out with since there still seems to be some confusion about RP:

    Fighting mobs and avoiding/not avoiding objects is not what defines Role Playing.
    Indeed.

    It's a bit hard playing a flight master if you're grounded though >_>

    (sorry, I had to, it's the last time I promise, I've run out of steam anyway)

  6. #26
    Heh; Thinking about it a bit more you actually couldn't be more right imo. Nearly every argument i've had on this forum is a Convenience vs Immersion(RPG) debate, I feel like if a player enjoys something, there's not going to be a lot that makes them enjoy the opposite of it more. For example; I love difficult games, I don't care if they take me months to beat, it keeps me going and it gives me something to look forward to beating - But most of my friends won't put in more than a couple of hours into these games before putting them down because they can't be bothered. Different people have different flavours and I doubt they'll change tbh; The sole purpose of a game is usually for it to be fun, but each of our definitions of 'fun' waver quite a lot.

    Blizzard realizes that and is trying to address it by giving something to everyone, and while that sounds great on paper - It doesn't work well in a MMORPG imho.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Heh; Thinking about it a bit more you actually couldn't be more right imo. Nearly every argument i've had on this forum is a Convenience vs Immersion(RPG) debate, I feel like if a player enjoys something, there's not going to be a lot that makes them enjoy the opposite of it more. For example; I love difficult games, I don't care if they take me months to beat, it keeps me going and it gives me something to look forward to beating - But most of my friends won't put in more than a couple of hours into these games before putting them down because they can't be bothered. Different people have different flavours and I doubt they'll change tbh; The sole purpose of a game is usually for it to be fun, but each of our definitions of 'fun' waver quite a lot.

    Blizzard realizes that and is trying to address it by giving something to everyone, and while that sounds great on paper - It doesn't work well in a MMORPG imho.
    I thought that it was a perfect disguise for their PvP agenda. No? Okay then...

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    Let's get this out with since there still seems to be some confusion about RP:
    You're the one who seems confused, because OP isn't talking about Role Playing in terms of that thing that goes on RP servers.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post

    I'm sure you can find one or two where there is flying, it is the exception that proves the rule.

    also you can ask for a lot buddy, don't expect me to feel like I have to prove anything to you
    Out of the top 10, three have flying. (WoW, FF IV airship, FF VI airship)
    Two have instantaneous fast-travel from any location on the world map to any discovered PoI. (Fallout 3, Skyrim)
    One has near-instantaneous portals to take you from where you are to the hub and then back to where you left. (Diablo II)
    And Mass Effect's idea of open world is very limited, with each area being mostly linear and relatively short. There's no need for fast travel because there's nothing between levels except a ride on the Normandy.

    One of the grand-daddy's of modern RPGs, Final Fantasy, had player flight once you got the airship.

    So no, lack of fast and convenient travel is not a rule. By all means, add Skyrim/Fallout's instantaneous out-of-combat fast-travel to WoW so players can hop from anywhere on the map to every castle, fort, cave, town, dungeon, etc. that they've discovered.

    Taking away flying is adding in a time-sink, because Blizzard can't or won't develop interesting things to do between point A and B.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by gowron View Post
    You're the one who seems confused, because OP isn't talking about Role Playing in terms of that thing that goes on RP servers.
    So you're still confused about the nature of RP...

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    yeah but how can a forest have flying islands? This might work if we go to some devasted Legion planet that's basically ripped apart. On Draenor? Not so much.
    A forest can have flying islands in a fantasy RPG. Just like Avatar has flying islands. The developers are lazy and lack imagination.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrak View Post
    liberalism is a right wing idealogy.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    no rpg games ever have flying. and for a good reason. now that you opened that can of worms this thread is as good as dead.

    Just add content in the air.

  13. #33
    Immortal jackofwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zorkuus View Post
    RPG is a very subjective term. Take this for instance:


    What if someone incorporates flying mounts into their RP?

    Furthermore the main point of RP is not that the developers force it by design but that players create it themselves.
    Traditional role-playing games do not have baseline flying because it is largely game-breaking

    Quote Originally Posted by Astarin View Post
    One of the grand-daddy's of modern RPGs, Final Fantasy, had player flight once you got the airship.
    The Final Fantasy games in question are not multiplayer games where flight has any impact whatsoever on player interaction. Further to that, flight within Final Fantasy (IV and VI) exists only on the World Map, a space devoid of any content other than random battles. Flight does not exist within actual Level Maps within Final Fantasy. As such it cannot be used to skip meaningful content.

    A proper comparison to the way flight is implemented in WoW, for instance, would be if it could be used to simply fly to the top of Kefka's Tower in FFVI (a Level Map, not the World Map), skipping the challenging all-magic gauntlet run and easily returning Strago to the party.
    Last edited by jackofwind; 2014-07-10 at 05:18 PM.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Because fuck you, that's why.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    http://www.ign.com/top/rpgs/100

    I'm sure you can find one or two where there is flying, it is the exception that proves the rule.

    also you can ask for a lot buddy, don't expect me to feel like I have to prove anything to you
    Um, in Final Fantasy 6, the number 1 RPG on that list, (which I don't agree with at all, I think 6 is shit, but my personal opinion is irrelevant in this case) they give you an Airship at endgame. It lets you fly around, and is pretty much used to get from point A to point B. Airships have been a staple of Final Fantasy since the original. Just look at the list! http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Airships

  15. #35
    Merely a Setback breadisfunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Traditional role-playing games do not have baseline flying because it is largely game-breaking



    The Final Fantasy games in question are not multiplayer games where flight has any impact whatsoever on player interaction. Further to that, flight within Final Fantasy (IV and VI) exists only on the World Map, a space devoid of any content other than random battles. Flight does not exist within actual Level Maps within Final Fantasy. As such it cannot be used to skip meaningful content.

    A proper comparison to the way flight is implemented in WoW, for instance, would be if it could be used to simply fly to the top of Kefka's Tower in FFVI (a Level Map, not the World Map), skipping the challenging all-magic gauntlet run and easily returning Strago to the party.
    dragon warrior 3 had it. breath of fire had it. pretty sure final fantasy had it.
    r.i.p. alleria. 1997-2017. blizzard ruined alleria forever. blizz assassinated alleria's character and appearance.
    i will never forgive you for this blizzard.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by jackofwind View Post
    Traditional role-playing games do not have baseline flying because it is largely game-breaking



    The Final Fantasy games in question are not multiplayer games where flight has any impact whatsoever on player interaction. Further to that, flight within Final Fantasy (IV and VI) exists only on the World Map, a space devoid of any content other than random battles. Flight does not exist within actual Level Maps within Final Fantasy. As such it cannot be used to skip meaningful content.

    A proper comparison to the way flight is implemented in WoW, for instance, would be if it could be used to simply fly to the top of Kefka's Tower in FFVI (a Level Map, not the World Map), skipping the challenging all-magic gauntlet run and easily returning Strago to the party.
    I disagree entirely with your comparison. Flight in Final Fantasy and wow is almost exactly the same concerning purpose. Kefka's tower is relevant content, and therefore you can't fly in it. You can never fly in relevant content in wow. Raids, pvp, dungeons, even first time leveling, all disallow flying. Flying is for endgame, to get you from point A to point B in areas of the game that are irrelevant. Same exact implementation in FF6. You can't fly to the top of Kefka's tower just like how you can't fly your way to Garrosh.

  17. #37
    What about those Wildhammer dwarves? Windriders? Gnomish pilots? Dragonmaw rpers? Troll Batriders? Night elven Hippogrpyh riders? There are rpers who love to do those, and ground them would break their immersion.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    yeah but how can a forest have flying islands? This might work if we go to some devasted Legion planet that's basically ripped apart. On Draenor? Not so much.
    SPIRES of Arak maybe?

  19. #39
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    I think the OP makes an excellent summary of both what has changed in WoW, and what (and why) people find "wrong" with the approach they don't prefer. I enjoyed the "roleplaying" WoW much more than the game that has emerged after multiple expansions and may patches; that doesn't mean the current version of WoW is "wrong" (it isn't), just that its a different game, enjoyed in different ways (and often by different people) than the original Class/BC-era WoW was. What does get my hackles up is players who insist "the game is the same as it has always been" and try to pretend it hasn't changed. It also irks me a little when Blizzard calls it an MMORPG. I'm not sure what the correct definition would be, but it's RPG elements have been... heavily pruned.
    Last edited by ringpriest; 2014-07-11 at 01:40 PM.
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Taftvalue View Post
    no rpg games ever have flying. and for a good reason. now that you opened that can of worms this thread is as good as dead.

    I guess Morrowind, Daggerfall etc. are not RPGs then. Nice conclusion.

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