CDR (AoC) should be passive for Combat Rogues

[Vigilate]

In one aspect it can be a good thing to have longer cooldowns.

Right now you really just want to pop your cooldowns as often as possible, the AoC trinket makes it pretty pointless conserving a cooldown for a trinket buff proc. So with a longer cd it would require you to go through combat logs to anticipate kill times and make a judgement wheter to just pop your ar+sb+ks on cooldown or to conserve for a trinket proc. Now I don't really enjoy this design, I want the game to reward being skilled at the game by having intuitive design, this design more rewards knowledge really. Now I don't even know if this would be a thing in wod seeing as they are vastly nerfing buff stacking.

Every class has to judge whether or not to pop a CD on CD or estimate whether they should hold off for a bit due to a proc while also knowing they won't lose a use of that CD on a fight.

Anyway in short I very much agree with the op, playing with the haste we have atm and full upgrade hcwf AoC I think it feels just right (cd reduction that is, energy capping isn't as fun). I wouldn't mind an AoC trinket for every tier either, . But I don't see this happening unless it's the view of the general population of rogues.

Additional note, I don't really think combat will feel that slow will lower haste levels if the cd of adrenaline rush is reduced. You're spamming as much on beta as on live to keep up with the increased energy regen from ar. Increasing the use of ar will make it feel faster. But I think energy regen is a different issue alltogether, and not really related to this.

The Energy regen issue and AoC are actually tied together, so to speak. Combat on Beta inexplicitly still feels like its being balanced around T16 Haste and CDR levels.

Well no The reason they scrapped readiness (atleast according to their official statement) was that it's hard to balance against other secondary stats but they said that it infact works very well in small quantities like on the assurance of consequence trinket. They mentioned that yes there are balance issues but they are also solveable. Readiness as a secondary stat would be another issue entirely.

The scrapping of Readiness was an interesting situation. I feel like the stat worked fine for Combat Rogues, since we can actually reduce most of our CDs naturally by performing out rotation. However, for other classes, CDR as a stat would create extremely hard breakpoints on a fight to fight basis. The less uptime a powerful DPS CD has on a fight, the greater the benefit a class gains out of gaining an extra use.

[Sesshou]

Right now you really just want to pop your cooldowns as often as possible, the AoC trinket makes it pretty pointless conserving a cooldown for a trinket buff proc. So with a longer cd it would require you to go through combat logs to anticipate kill times and make a judgement wheter to just pop your ar+sb+ks on cooldown or to conserve for a trinket proc. Now I don't really enjoy this design, I want the game to reward being skilled at the game by having intuitive design, this design more rewards knowledge really. Now I don't even know if this would be a thing in wod seeing as they are vastly nerfing buff stacking.

To do that, they really need to drop rppm trinkets, but yeah I thought tracking trinket procs for cds was pretty interesting. It was something a good player could pay attention to for a decent gain in dps over a bad player who didn't and we need more of those... a lot more. Last tier was double rppm trinkets so you could try to hold and just get rngs, and this tier its 1 non rppm trinket but cds come back so fast you can't really delay them.

[Deleted]

Well no The reason they scrapped readiness (atleast according to their official statement) was that it's hard to balance against other secondary stats but they said that it infact works very well in small quantities like on the assurance of consequence trinket. They mentioned that yes there are balance issues but they are also solveable. Readiness as a secondary stat would be another issue entirely.

That's what I said, removed as a stat. I agree it does work nicely as a trinket bonus. But even then, right now it's likely BiS for most, if not all classes.

[Deleted]

Every class has to judge whether or not to pop a CD on CD or estimate whether they should hold off for a bit due to a proc while also knowing they won't lose a use of that CD on a fight.

Ofcourse but I don't see your point other than mentioning the obvious. My point is that with the AoC as a rogue this is no longer a thing, it's not reliable to delay cooldowns as a combat rogue because the cooldown is too short, atleast if you consider that kill times aren't static. With a 3 minute cooldown this is alot more reliable, because you have more time to play with. I don't see why it matters that this is not exclusive to rogues.

The Energy regen issue and AoC are actually tied together, so to speak. Combat on Beta inexplicitly still feels like its being balanced around T16 Haste and CDR levels.

I was replying under the context that combat will still feel slow without our current haste levels even with AoC, which I disagree with. It will feel "slower" but not slow. But I don't think the energy regen issue is related to wheter or not we should keep AoC trinkets / make it baseline. So while I agree the energy regen issue and AoC are tied together, I don't think it's related to the topic. AR feeling broken doesn't mean that it should impact wheter or not we should keep CDR, it means that AR needs to be changed in my opinion.

The scrapping of Readiness was an interesting situation. I feel like the stat worked fine for Combat Rogues, since we can actually reduce most of our CDs naturally by performing out rotation. However, for other classes, CDR as a stat would create extremely hard breakpoints on a fight to fight basis. The less uptime a powerful DPS CD has on a fight, the greater the benefit a class gains out of gaining an extra use

Well this doesn't dispute my comment, I was replying as to why it was scrapped and why there's a difference with readiness compared to a big chunk of CDR from a trinket like AoC, not wheter or not it's a good stat for combat rogues, it would be weird to keep the stat just because one spec sort of works decent with it . Besides that I agree with what you're saying to an extent, it would probably work fine as a combat rogue but a big chunk of CDR from a trinket like AoC or making our cds shorter baseline would be the better, less complicated option.

- - - Updated - - -

To do that, they really need to drop rppm trinkets, but yeah I thought tracking trinket procs for cds was pretty interesting. It was something a good player could pay attention to for a decent gain in dps over a bad player who didn't and we need more of those... a lot more. Last tier was double rppm trinkets so you could try to hold and just get rngs, and this tier its 1 non rppm trinket but cds come back so fast you can't really delay them.

Problem is that the "good" player would most of the time just have researched this while the "bad" player wouldn't of, doesn't mean that one is more skilled than the other, and I'd say this is why I don't really like it. I much prefer more difficulty in your normal priority system over things like these, but I guess each to his own in this regard. I thought rppm trinkets worked fine last tier, probably not as good as non rppm but there wasn't an issue.

[Vigilate]

To do that, they really need to drop rppm trinkets, but yeah I thought tracking trinket procs for cds was pretty interesting. It was something a good player could pay attention to for a decent gain in dps over a bad player who didn't and we need more of those... a lot more. Last tier was double rppm trinkets so you could try to hold and just get rngs, and this tier its 1 non rppm trinket but cds come back so fast you can't really delay them.

RPPM as a mechanic only seems "innovative" and rotation changing for DoT classes with the current model of DoT snapshotting. For everyone else, RPPM is this annoying RNG mechanic that we love when we get tons of chain procs during CDs but annoyed when they don't proc during CDs. Am definitely more a fan of ICD trinkets since you can actually know what they'll be coming up. Actually wouldn't mind seeing a return of On Use trinkets for PvE, either. Especially with the loss of Engi glove bonuses, On Use trinkets would actually be usable again while lining up CDs.

[Warstar]

Not sure if monitoring trinkets neccessarily makes for a world breaking good player. More just separates a lazy player from one who installs an addon like weak auras or tell me when. Which is why they implemented RPPM I think they were trying to make it so people could just play rather than adding a semi boring mechanic. Not justifying RPPM in any way shape or form I think those trinkets were beyond completely retarded.

Honestly the simple fact of the mater is that rogues are not that deep of a class and they don't really have the options that some classes have to taking advantage of trinket procs and what not. The current dot snap shotting model for example gives any dot spec the option to refresh with a higher damage ability and adds another layer of depth to that class. Affliction locks show how powerful using trinkets properly can be. But, even specs like demonology locks have the ability with their big CD of demon form to switch into and out of it whenever they get a trinket proc. Same thing with destro locks being able to bank embers to fire off some suped up chaos bolts when they get trinkets or CDs up.

The way rogues are set up they really don't have the ability to react to temp buffs like this and more often than not banking CDs for a trinket proc leads to a dps loss rather than a gain. I mean hell even without the AoC with restless blades alone rogues usually don't want to bank more than a little bit for something.

Rogues really need some sort of a redesign that allows them to take advantage of stuff like this rather than just barreling ahead a top spead spamming everything as fast as you can when it comes off cd.

[Sesshou]

Not sure if monitoring trinkets neccessarily makes for a world breaking good player. More just separates a lazy player from one who installs an addon like weak auras or tell me when. Which is why they implemented RPPM I think they were trying to make it so people could just play rather than adding a semi boring mechanic. Not justifying RPPM in any way shape or form I think those trinkets were beyond completely retarded.

Probably as much a difference as pooling for your envenom buff which is touted as compelling gameplay and not a boring mechanic. Overall dps difference, yeah probably not world breaking.

[Deleted]

Good post Bojos, and I agree.
Now if you look at Bandit's Guile, it works in harmony with our CD's. But what would the purpose of Bandit's Guile even be if come WoD we can't make restless blades trigger our CD's missing out many BG phases. I don't know, but that would feel awkward. I guess I just felt that AoC was the next step of evolution for Combat's direction. Anyways, hopefully our beta participants of the rogue community will provide valid feedback, as I myself don't really know the state of our playstyle in WoD.

[ymirsson]

. I guess I just felt that AoC was the next step of evolution for Combat's direction.

WHat kind of evolution would that have been? We reduce the cooldowns on our abilities until...? It's the same as saying a bigger dagger is evolution for subtlety.

[Deleted]

WHat kind of evolution would that have been? We reduce the cooldowns on our abilities until...? It's the same as saying a bigger dagger is evolution for subtlety.

A bigger dagger won't flavour your playstyle into being more engaging/interactive. Although I do have personal feedback for Subtlety, I made this topic specifically about Combat.

[ymirsson]

Pressing my cooldowns more often isn't more interactive. On the contrary, pressing my cooldowns as often as possible, removing any and all thoughts about holding them back for a more opportune time is the opposite of engaging and interactive. I could macro combat CDs to sinister strike and lose basically negigible damage. Maybe i'd kill myself more often with KS, but that's a different issue.

[Deleted]

Pressing my cooldowns more often isn't more interactive. On the contrary, pressing my cooldowns as often as possible, removing any and all thoughts about holding them back for a more opportune time is the opposite of engaging and interactive. I could macro combat CDs to sinister strike and lose basically negigible damage. Maybe i'd kill myself more often with KS, but that's a different issue.

I guess this is where our opinions differ, and thats totally allright. But for me I like the fast paced playstyle.

[The Kao]

I guess this is where our opinions differ, and thats totally allright. But for me I like the fast paced playstyle.

That's nice and all but if you had any memories of the beginning of the current expansion, that before, or that before that, and so on, then you'd know that every class that freshly reached max level always played a lot slower than what you were used to from an endgame geared toon. We're comparing entirely different things here, go step into Proving Grounds if you want to see how fast paced an item level 463 rogue plays in MoP with no gear.

But here's the good news. We will get there again step by step with every piece of gear and every raid into WoD. That's part of the tiered max level progression system that is gearing. It wouldn't be right and it would feel totally strange if that wasn't there during the time an xpac runs; imagine you wouldn't have the feeling that you're getting stronger and faster over the cause of several raid tiers, is it that what you want?

[Deleted]

Problem is we haven't actually tested AoC at the start of an expansion or in proving grounds (remember that the trinket is nerfed to around 15% cd decrease). So all we can do is speculate how it would feel at this point with only AoC and slow energy regen. Anyway I don't know if AoC is nerfed on the beta or working or anything, I can't copy my char myself yet and restless blades isn't working either so we can't test it at all. Even with increased energy regen in wod end tier we won't even reach close to mop levels without AoC trinket or CDR baseline though.

I know what I like but I can't be completley sure what I want unless I get to test it, well I doubt anyone can. And I do like being able to press cooldowns as often as we do now and slower is better than massively slower without AoC because ofcourse if the baseline is made the same as AoC hc it would still feel slower due to less restlessblades with lower energy, unless they increased the baseline CDR even stronger the first tier, but this would become an issue for later tiers where the baseline CDR would be too extreme instead, I don't know how this should be handled. I wouldn't really mind something like kael's suggestion either, but I do know that I would like abit longer cooldowns than way longer cooldowns. I don't really mind the slower energy regen on the beta btw.

I disagree on a factual level with that there's no thought in holding back cds. There's thought when reacting to boss mechanics with shorter cds, more or less thought compared to longer cds is hard to say tho, depends on the fight really. On overall if you consider trinkets there's more thought with longer cds in the regard of holding cds, but it's not as extreme as pointed out. Can't argue if planning cds vs the other points I've mentioned before feels more interactive or enganging, all I can do is say the I feel the opposite.

[Skarzog]

That's nice and all but if you had any memories of the beginning of the current expansion, that before, or that before that, and so on, then you'd know that every class that freshly reached max level always played a lot slower than what you were used to from an endgame geared toon. We're comparing entirely different things here, go step into Proving Grounds if you want to see how fast paced an item level 463 rogue plays in MoP with no gear.

But here's the good news. We will get there again step by step with every piece of gear and every raid into WoD. That's part of the tiered max level progression system that is gearing. It wouldn't be right and it would feel totally strange if that wasn't there during the time an xpac runs; imagine you wouldn't have the feeling that you're getting stronger and faster over the cause of several raid tiers, is it that what you want?

Normally I would agree, but I think in this case the situation goes a bit beyond gear will fix it. With the increased cost of sinister strike and in T17 level gear I think combat was somewhere in the 50-55% downtime region. To me, and probably many others that far too much. Half of your time should not be spent just auto attacking. The changes to deep insight have exacerbated the issue, dumping most of combat's damage into a short window of time which does not come back around very often. Even in this expansion combat's issues have never actually been addressed. The spec has been propped up by gimmick tier bonuses and trinkets, which without would have left it non-viable the entire expansion.

I agree that the strength and speed of the spec should improve over the length of the expansion. However, 50% downtime is just unacceptable regardless the amount of gear.

[jtstormrage]

Marked for Death if you level as Combat for sure.

[Squirl]

Marked for Death if you level as Combat a rogue for sure.

There you go.

[Deleted]

Normally I would agree, but I think in this case the situation goes a bit beyond gear will fix it. With the increased cost of sinister strike and in T17 level gear I think combat was somewhere in the 50-55% downtime region. To me, and probably many others that far too much. Half of your time should not be spent just auto attacking. The changes to deep insight have exacerbated the issue, dumping most of combat's damage into a short window of time which does not come back around very often. Even in this expansion combat's issues have never actually been addressed. The spec has been propped up by gimmick tier bonuses and trinkets, which without would have left it non-viable the entire expansion.

I agree that the strength and speed of the spec should improve over the length of the expansion. However, 50% downtime is just unacceptable regardless the amount of gear.

Also without shadow blades AR won't provide as many restless blades procs. I'm just waiting to see some youtube feedback vids from the rogue community, beta is early stage so we'l see I guess.

[shadowboy]

Marked for Death if you level as Combat for sure.

I raid with MfD as combat currently. It's not just a leveling talent. It models more throughput than anticipation in both shadowcraft and simcraft--and that's for a fight without adds that reset the cd.

[Deleted]

I'm guessing that's not with umm 587 gear then? Shows to be worse in shadowcraft for me, haven't tested simcraft.