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  1. #481
    Quote Originally Posted by Bentusi View Post
    And this is the short version of what my feelings are on this subject. I met hundreds and hundreds of great players on ED, all equally fed up with waiting for Blizzard to stop wrecking their game to coddle lazy, incompetent people. In fact, if there`s anything wrong with private servers at all it is that the level of the players using them is too high, so things which would be very hard indeed on a more randomly populated server, like they all were in retail, can become almost easy. This of course is precisely the opposite of what the problem was when playing retail.





    This is true and yet it was much more challenging than it is now. So a gateway MMORPG, instead of ramping up the challenge as players become good, does the reverse. Does that make any sense to you?
    As for the raids it`s not as simple as you make out here. Sure, mechanically fights are more complex now. But with the lack of addons and general combat feedback in Vanilla, many of the fights are seriously hard. Of course sometimes the challenge is bosses oneshotting the MT or something, which they got rid of in BC already, excepting enrage situations. But healing Chromaggus and Nefarian was more challenging to me than healing anything in Wrath and basically anything in BC except perhaps M`uru and Vashj before you outgeared the fight. It sounds to me as if you`re taking Molten Core and pretending all Vanilla raiding was that basic or something. But it certainly was not.
    And the stats prove this too right. Something like 2% of the player base even set foot in Naxxramas, so how can it be easy? This percentage doubled many times in TBC, except for SWP, and endlessly in Wrath and beyond. Clearly then raiding is easier after Vanilla by any reasonable measurements. Or are you gonna claim achievement contrivances, where you`re one of ten guilds to kill a boss while blindfolded and listening to Mongolian nose flute quartets?

    And my main beef is not raiding anyway, but that everything else has been trivialized and made irrelevant. I mean, you can make a list of all the game elements of WoW imaginable and they will all have been nerfed at some point. Usually many times.
    That is simply not true. Raiding in Vanilla was difficult because of the general lack of experience of players and the lack of players at max level. As WoW got older the number of players that were already near max level and already experienced in WoW raid content increased. If you were to join a private server as many people have already, you'll easily be able to clear nearly all content. The difficulty came from reaching the point where you could raid, not the raids itself.

    As for personal experience, I don't think that's the issue. I have been playing WoW since 2005 and while I can admit that it was harder to raid in Vanilla, that was simply due to finding a player base rather than the content itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Dequanacus View Post
    That is simply not true. Raiding in Vanilla was difficult because of the general lack of experience of players and the lack of players at max level. As WoW got older the number of players that were already near max level and already experienced in WoW raid content increased. If you were to join a private server as many people have already, you'll easily be able to clear nearly all content. The difficulty came from reaching the point where you could raid, not the raids itself.

    As for personal experience, I don't think that's the issue. I have been playing WoW since 2005 and while I can admit that it was harder to raid in Vanilla, that was simply due to finding a player base rather than the content itself.
    Well I did do this and no it is not easy. MC and ZG are pretty straightforward of course, but BWL and Naxx just are not. And like I said, on private servers the level of play is much higher than on any retail server I have ever played on, because of the types of players they attract. Any normal guild playing on a retail Vanilla server, for instance if your entire server just magically transferred to one and kept on playing, would likely hit a brick wall somewhere in that progression. My guess would be Chromaggus as the break off point for most of the present raiders.

    But anyway, raiding is not everything. There`s also leveling, professions, transportation, character management (water, soul stones, arrows etc), talents, rotations, professions, cc, gear and above all 5 mans. And it`s all been ruined and/or made trivial and/or unneccesary compared to in Vanilla. The way I see it this has all been replaced by queues and achievements. People who like things done for them, who like convenience or just don`t want to play so much may enjoy some, most or even all of these changes. I hated almost every single one of them. And I`m not alone. Raiding is just one small aspect of this.
    Last edited by Bentusi; 2014-07-25 at 02:32 AM.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Bentusi View Post
    Well I did do this and no it is not easy. MC and ZG are pretty straightforward of course, but BWL and Naxx just are not. And like I said, on private servers the level of play is much higher than on any retail server I have ever played on, because of the types of players they attract. Any normal guild playing on a retail Vanilla server, for instance if your entire server just magically transferred to one and kept on playing, would likely hit a brick wall somewhere in that progression. My guess would be Chromaggus as the break off point for most of the present raiders.

    But anyway, raiding is not everything. There`s also leveling, professions, transportation, character management (water, soul stones, arrows etc), talents, rotations, professions, cc, gear and above all 5 mans. And it`s all been ruined and/or made trivial and/or unneccesary compared to in Vanilla. The way I see it this has all been replaced by queues and achievements. People who like things done for them, who like convenience or just don`t want to play so much may enjoy some, most or even all of these changes. I hated almost every single one of them. And I`m not alone. Raiding is just one small aspect of this.
    And had Vanilla WoW not made the mechanics you mentioned easier to deal with than the mmos before it? WoW has always been about making things accessible and as other games dumbed down it was in WoW's nature to dumb itself down as well.

    I am of course, referring to the mechanics you mentioned that disregard raiding.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  4. #484
    Is a hard game still hard if it holds your hand the whole way? Instead of managing mana now it's more like, oh use this cooldown when it's up or when mana is low.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dequanacus View Post
    And had Vanilla WoW not made the mechanics you mentioned easier to deal with than the mmos before it? WoW has always been about making things accessible and as other games dumbed down it was in WoW's nature to dumb itself down as well.

    I am of course, referring to the mechanics you mentioned that disregard raiding.
    Its still kind of irrelevant though. I think Cata/MoP would flop like Age of Conan if vanilla/BC/wrath hadn't preceded them.

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon138 View Post
    Is a hard game still hard if it holds your hand the whole way? Instead of managing mana now it's more like, oh use this cooldown when it's up or when mana is low.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Its still kind of irrelevant though. I think Cata/MoP would flop like Age of Conan if vanilla/BC/wrath hadn't preceded them.
    I'll assume you're only referring to the mechanics in the game and nothing else. The point of most of the changes was that many people had grown used to the xpacs prior and wanted to jump into the new content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  6. #486
    I think the spark is still there, but you have to find it. I also believe WoD will be what we've been looking for since before Cataclysm.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Dequanacus View Post
    I guess I don't count against everyone since I had replied to that post hours ago.

    Still not sure why people continue to blow Vanilla raids out of proportion. They certainly weren't harder compared to what we have now. I'm also curious if people are aware that Vanilla WoW was considered "casual" and a "gateway MMO" compared to the MMOs that were out back then.
    Raids in Vanilla were not truly hard. The heroics today could be counted harder. The problem was that you needed so many people for a raid and more people are harder to coordinate than less people. Also the fact that you rarely had everyone in working condition at once, cause once again, moving a 40 man raid along was a bitch, especially when buffing was involved and cheap ass paladins. Also finding the people was another issue cause getting geared up for raids wasn't easy and therefore it was hard to replace geared people.

    Frankly this thread is bullshit. Vanilla was great because it felt new to tired-ass veterans who love to talk about it while in nostalgia overdrive. But things were not so rosy then. Much has improved.

    Maybe people should consider the fact that they are bored of WoW instead of making crappy posts like this one.

  8. #488
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Raids in Vanilla were not truly hard. The heroics today could be counted harder. The problem was that you needed so many people for a raid and more people are harder to coordinate than less people. Also the fact that you rarely had everyone in working condition at once, cause once again, moving a 40 man raid along was a bitch, especially when buffing was involved and cheap ass paladins. Also finding the people was another issue cause getting geared up for raids wasn't easy and therefore it was hard to replace geared people.

    Frankly this thread is bullshit. Vanilla was great because it felt new to tired-ass veterans who love to talk about it while in nostalgia overdrive. But things were not so rosy then. Much has improved.

    Maybe people should consider the fact that they are bored of WoW instead of making crappy posts like this one.
    Think you're looking for

    Quote Originally Posted by Dequanacus View Post
    That is simply not true. Raiding in Vanilla was difficult because of the general lack of experience of players and the lack of players at max level. As WoW got older the number of players that were already near max level and already experienced in WoW raid content increased. If you were to join a private server as many people have already, you'll easily be able to clear nearly all content. The difficulty came from reaching the point where you could raid, not the raids itself.

    As for personal experience, I don't think that's the issue. I have been playing WoW since 2005 and while I can admit that it was harder to raid in Vanilla, that was simply due to finding a player base rather than the content itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  9. #489
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Raids in Vanilla were not truly hard. The heroics today could be counted harder. The problem was that you needed so many people for a raid and more people are harder to coordinate than less people. Also the fact that you rarely had everyone in working condition at once, cause once again, moving a 40 man raid along was a bitch, especially when buffing was involved and cheap ass paladins. Also finding the people was another issue cause getting geared up for raids wasn't easy and therefore it was hard to replace geared people.

    Frankly this thread is bullshit. Vanilla was great because it felt new to tired-ass veterans who love to talk about it while in nostalgia overdrive. But things were not so rosy then. Much has improved.

    Maybe people should consider the fact that they are bored of WoW instead of making crappy posts like this one.
    Sorry but i cannot agree with you.

    the game has improved in certain ways... but the GAME and the COMMUNITY has only gone downwards...
    which has resulted in more than half of all the player left the game.

  10. #490
    Quote Originally Posted by Everztar View Post
    Sorry but i cannot agree with you.

    the game has improved in certain ways... but the GAME and the COMMUNITY has only gone downwards...
    which has resulted in more than half of all the player left the game.
    Spouting opinions as facts isn't going to help with your arguments. Especially since you're flat out wrong about Blizzard losing over half their subscribers (peak was 12)
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Everztar View Post
    Sorry but i cannot agree with you.

    the game has improved in certain ways... but the GAME and the COMMUNITY has only gone downwards...
    which has resulted in more than half of all the player left the game.
    Actually it's the community that keeps this game together. Sure there's plenty of over-sensitive butthurts who think the world goes to hell cause some random guy didn't respond to their hello. But this game has kept itself on top of the boards for nearly a decade with no real competition.

    WoW has character and so do it's factions. I don't know what it is but people grow attached to it at a certain level. I mean here you are, whining like a spoiled schoolgirl, but here you are, still.

    Yeah people wanna remember the good times, I choose to remember all times. For example before I found my guild in vanilla I had to run countless strat dugeons for the 0.5 tier and I've seen more human scumbaggery than i've seen in LFD and LFR and that was one one server. But that is my opinion, yours is different. But like someone said, facts speak for themselves and while WoW has lost numbers it still stands as the most popular sub-based game of it's type.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Yeah people wanna remember the good times, I choose to remember all times. For example before I found my guild in vanilla I had to run countless strat dugeons for the 0.5 tier and I've seen more human scumbaggery than i've seen in LFD and LFR and that was one one server.
    I didn't play in vanilla but I can relate from my experience in Cata. I've witness more nerd ragers back when I had my first level capped toon than now.

    But I miss it.

    It was player interaction, it was drama, it was character.
    Of course none of that shit happens now because you queue, kill, loot, no goodbyes.
    The game is more solo player friendly than ever. You can see and kill Garrosh without having to say a single word.

    Was it all "good times?" back in the day? No. But it was far more interesting than what we have now.

  13. #493
    Herald of the Titans Vintersol's Avatar
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    Yeah people wanna remember the good times, I choose to remember all times. For example before I found my guild in vanilla I had to run countless strat dugeons for the 0.5 tier and I've seen more human scumbaggery than i've seen in LFD and LFR and that was one one server.
    I also play since 2005 and doesn't made this experience and i played a lot of random dungeons. Finding a group took some time, but the runs were filled with player interaction and communication (besides they lasted longer). Sure, some faggots got in there, but the amount of brainless zombies currently in LFR/LFD was skyrocketing since Wrath and the LFD introduction. And this kind of players is still rising.

    I don't flame someone in LFD/LFR for being bad. I say nothing. But i frequently lost the interest in those content more and more because of the huge scumbaggery that is floating around.
    It's high noon.
    Personality: INTJ

  14. #494
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Thyr View Post
    I also play since 2005 and doesn't made this experience and i played a lot of random dungeons. Finding a group took some time, but the runs were filled with player interaction and communication (besides they lasted longer). Sure, some faggots got in there, but the amount of brainless zombies currently in LFR/LFD was skyrocketing since Wrath and the LFD introduction. And this kind of players is still rising.

    I don't flame someone in LFD/LFR for being bad. I say nothing. But i frequently lost the interest in those content more and more because of the huge scumbaggery that is floating around.
    neither have i, back in the days it was like "sry i really have to go..."
    we were like "that's okay, we can wait if u want? or should we replace you?"
    we asked in guilds, and found a new person pretty quick

    it wasn't really that terrible, and all the players i played with @darksorrow were kind, no one was like those scumbags in LFD/LFR today ^^ OR the people in flex, oh lord save me...

  15. #495
    ...another kid claiming to be old school.

    Next time you wanna make believe that you played during vanilla, don't complain about how unbalanced pvp has become...

  16. #496
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by madmanx View Post
    ...another kid claiming to be old school.

    Next time you wanna make believe that you played during vanilla, don't complain about how unbalanced pvp has become...
    my warrior was my main, i could beat any class with PvE or PvP gear on
    my priest was my alt, i could beat any class with PvE gear on

    that being said, i HATE that people that played pvp before i did will smash the living shit out of me even though we're the same itemlevel... why? i'll tell you why... they have some unbalanced SHIT PVP GEAR... i mean come on? why make PvP gear THAT MUCH superior?

    arenas are impossible with PvE gear on... so first i have to farm some crappy honor in battlegrounds where i can live for 1 second and then i die cuz someone one shot me due to their PvP Power.

    all gear should be equally fit to PvP... no matter where you got it... i don't have time to farm battlegrounds AND raid at the same time... i have a fulltime job, alright?

    if i have more Item Level than someone, i should be superior... but no... they are because they have crazy PvP power stats on their gear O.o THAT SUCKS.

    remove PvP power AND Resilience plz.

  17. #497
    Quote Originally Posted by Everztar View Post
    my warrior was my main, i could beat any class with PvE or PvP gear on
    my priest was my alt, i could beat any class with PvE gear on

    that being said, i HATE that people that played pvp before i did will smash the living shit out of me even though we're the same itemlevel... why? i'll tell you why... they have some unbalanced SHIT PVP GEAR... i mean come on? why make PvP gear THAT MUCH superior?

    arenas are impossible with PvE gear on... so first i have to farm some crappy honor in battlegrounds where i can live for 1 second and then i die cuz someone one shot me due to their PvP Power.

    all gear should be equally fit to PvP... no matter where you got it... i don't have time to farm battlegrounds AND raid at the same time... i have a fulltime job, alright?

    if i have more Item Level than someone, i should be superior... but no... they are because they have crazy PvP power stats on their gear O.o THAT SUCKS.

    remove PvP power AND Resilience plz.
    So you should be able to go toe to toe with someone that has been doing nothing but pvp without even having to put in effort? PvP gear isn't good for raiding, don't have double standards.

    You made points about how WoW has been casualized and yet you're asking for them to do it even harder. You're just as much a part of the problem you spoke about. The current WoW, that you said pales in comparison to Vanilla, it's the WoW that was made for people like you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kekekz View Post
    Everyone hated BC, everyone hated Wrath, everyone hated Cata and everyone will hate MoP. MoP will become the new worst expansion and Al'akir or BoT will become the new "last good raid" or something stupid like that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelliak View Post
    You're now blocked. Told you I was done with you. You want to pick fights over minute details as if this is the fucking presidential debate on a gaming forum.
    Enjoy.

  18. #498
    The game isn't any harder than it has ever been. It's different kinds of difficulty.

  19. #499
    Well right now I am playing Wildstar and it rekindled a lot of the love I had in TBC. Well rekindled my love for MMOs in general. Very excited to play WoD again and playing Guild Wars 2. Playing 2 MMOs right now.

    Honestly the spark is a just a fallacy and refuses for any honest solid discussion. However, I will say though; the worst thing I have witnessed in wow is LFR and I am glad they are changing it in WoD. New loot tables, art, and increased loot drops will make that place far more bearable than ever.

  20. #500
    I feel like Class homogenization has really hurt this game. I remember in the WOTLK days where damn near every dps spec brought a unique buff to the group.

    Warriors commanding shout was added hp and separate from fort
    Demo Warlocks had a special buff
    Threat actually mattered, so rogues tricks and hunters MD were good tools
    Healers were vastly different from each other, you had paladins and priests tank healing and shams and druids raid healing.
    As much as I love LFD I think that it played a big part in dissolving server communities. I remember everyone spamming for the daily heroic, It was always fun unless it was HOS.

    Gearing up outside of raids has sucked as well. The only gear available through VP is from reps, where in previous expansions there was a neutral vendor in a capital city that actually sold some good stuff. Not top tier stuff, but good enough for entry level raids. That in combination with new 5 mans made gearing alts or casual characters really easy.

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