Subterfuge is stupid

[Mormolyce]

Subterfuge is stupidly OP as it is currently. Sincerely, a Rogue.

In WoD it will still allow you to use stealth requiring abilities for 3 seconds after stealth, but you will not actually be invisible during that time. Which is the really excessive part of it. So it'll be considerably less powerful. Also, remember that this is a talent so to take it you're losing damage on your opener anyway via Nightstalker (and speed while stealthed) or the reduced energy cost on opener which also translates to more damage in the opener window.

Getting around the cloak.

Use a bleed.

Unless he's a Dwarf, but nobody seems to make Dwarf Rogues for some silly reason.

I'll be honest, I think the degree to which rogue-openers are fail proof is pretty silly.

They really aren't.

If you want to see fool-proof, look at Hunter camo. That thing is retarded.

[TanksBosses]

So annoying at Strand of the ancients. They have planted/defused a bomb before they come out of stealth

That's what I hate most to. It's like I'm dilligently defending a gate, all of a sudden FOK FOK FOK ... oh I guess a rogue got a bomb by me...

[ro9ue]

I main a rogue. I actually find Subterfuge to be a bit OP as well. 3 seconds is sort of a long time to remain stealthed post-opener.

The problem is Burst of Speed makes up for the loss of Nightstalker on that tier. In PVP, Nightstalker would be far more important IMO sans BoS. But since you can grab subterfuge and keep up with people stealthed by spamming BoS, Subterfuge is the go to.

What they need to do is either nerf BoS or make Shadowstep and Cloak and Dagger shinier for PvP.

Me personally, I run Shadowstep and Nightstalker because I prefer the utility of Shadowstep, but I've used Subterfuge enough to see how fucking OP it is.

If you're wondering why I wouldn't use Subterfuge if I think it's OP, I just don't find it as fun as taking NS and grabbing Shadowstep. Shadowstep is probably the most fun rogue ability and the few moments where it shines make it worth it.

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Problem with subterfuge is that atm, you cant know. You have to guess.

Lets say you are a druid and a rogue opens on you, if he dances you have to skin, if he doesnt skinning could be the death of you later on when he dances and you dont have it. You cant see the rogue so you cant say for sure, you have to guess util subterfuge runs out as you cant see the buffs or debuffs on the rogue. It also means rogues are untargatable and thus unpeelable for a few seconds every opener.

This is all gone in beta though as you can see the rogue immediatly.

I just want to point out subtlety isn't the only great rogue PvP spec. Assassin holds it's own now even at high ranks, and in some cases can outplay subtlety especially versus plate.

[spinner981]

It is a bit annoying, but not to worry, it is getting nerfed, and hunters are getting a version of it, except twice as good! Oh boy!

Probably will be significantly different since all it will give us is a few seconds of "Where is the hunter?" and we won't be using any strong openers (not destroying your HP pool) or stuns or the like.

[ro9ue]

You shouldn't have any problems countering a Rogue as long as you know what to do at the exact moment he attacks you.
Play a Rogue on PTR for a while and you will get a better understanding of the class and what you have to do in order to avoid being overwhelmed by one. It's pretty simple, if you ask me.

Honestly best advice right here. I started as a hunter back in Vanilla. And every time I made an alt, I got better at countering that class in PvP.

As a rogue now I know 90% of casters will pop a knockback or AoE fear immediately after my opener whether it's a stun or silence so I pop cloak as soon as it wears off and can usually get them under 25% or finish them. Just for one example. It's almost like clockwork for Warlocks and priests using their AoE fear after the opener.

Also it made me watch for an early cloak versus rogues on my casters.

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Probably will be significantly different since all it will give us is a few seconds of "Where is the hunter?" and we won't be using any strong openers (not destroying your HP pool) or stuns or the like.

The OP factor of that is when it's a rogue you know they are close. A hunter could be 30+ yards away. Playing "Where's the hunter?" after yours breaks is what's going to let you get that extra damage in.

[Socialhealer]

glad to see people agree it's broken, i catch a rogue with cloak used, 30 second flame shock, still i cannot land a single spell because he can move at 70% speed forever, and constantly re-stealth with the dot on him, it breaks he stealth's again over and over, once i managed to get a second FS as the first was running out, he simply kited and re-stealthed for the whole minute, cloak came up and killed me.

stealth is one thing, but being able to be un-targetable after it's been broken is about as broken as pvp gets, the rogue should be at a weakness once found thats the fucking mechanic of the class it's not a damn warrior, but right now rogues might as well have a flying mount in BGs and just land when they want to fight.

oh and let's not forget blind and subterfuge or sap, why not give rogues evade? just stand there immune to everything until they decide they are ready for you.

[Littlepinch]

As a hunter the sec i see the rogue opening on me, I put down an instant flare, trap into a disengage ( snares the rogue ) - my first kill command puts up hunters mark ( makes him pop cds to get back into stealth. Then throw another flare right behind me and repeat.

[Kezuma]

As a hunter the sec i see the rogue opening on me, I put down an instant flare, trap into a disengage ( snares the rogue ) - my first kill command puts up hunters mark ( makes him pop cds to get back into stealth. Then throw another flare right behind me and repeat.

i dont want to sound retarded or that i have something against you but in arena if a rogue opens on you as a hunter u;re doing it very wrong , in bgs i can understand but even so i dont think bgs come into topic here since almost everything can break stealth quite easy with the amount of aoe spams.

As for topic 3 sec stealth seem quite powerful i can agree but why is subterfuge stupid when the the OP cry out that hes getting owned by BoS.
Beside the rogue can even be a good rogue and u can still open on him with all the aoe that is in the game for all the classes.
Sure u open on him and he can still use couple more sec on invis ability might look OP but u can play around that not the mention if u;re a hunter in a duel or arena a rogue will never ever open on you with your stupid camo and flare , and for those to cry the rogue got so much toolkit improve lets be honest hes not the king of stealth anymore , almost all the classes got a god damn invisibility nowdays.

[Deleted]

I do think it needs a bit of tuning.. or something.

At the same time though, if the invention of stealth was new to MMOs, the internet would riot.

I mean seriously, YOU'RE INVISIBLE. That just sounds like the most broken thing ever.

It pretty much is, and I'm explicitely not referring to it's offensive possibilities. From a defensive perspective (non instanced) it is basically GOD MODE! Untouchable.

They could improve stealth so much, but they don't want to. First they would have to get rid of that shining red text above ones head. Then they would have to change the stealth visuals to something like hunter camouflage, but much much better. Barely visible but NOT invisible, with a slight difference if the rogue moves or doesn't move at all. Maybe not seeing something per se, but having stealth to cause slight distortions of the environment behind the rogue. Such a thing would deserve the name stealth, currently it's not stealth, it's 100% invisibility.



"I could have sworn that there was something..."

Full cartoon: http://www.shakesandfidget.com/comic...affel/stealth/

[Kezotar]

Rogue OP? Currently at 2400/2500 and haven't seen a rogue for a few days.
However what I see is boomies, ferals, mages and warlocks.

[Littlepinch]

i dont want to sound retarded or that i have something against you but in arena if a rogue opens on you as a hunter u;re doing it very wrong , in bgs i can understand but even so i dont think bgs come into topic here since almost everything can break stealth quite easy with the amount of aoe spams.

As for topic 3 sec stealth seem quite powerful i can agree but why is subterfuge stupid when the the OP cry out that hes getting owned by BoS.
Beside the rogue can even be a good rogue and u can still open on him with all the aoe that is in the game for all the classes.
Sure u open on him and he can still use couple more sec on invis ability might look OP but u can play around that not the mention if u;re a hunter in a duel or arena a rogue will never ever open on you with your stupid camo and flare , and for those to cry the rogue got so much toolkit improve lets be honest hes not the king of stealth anymore , almost all the classes got a god damn invisibility nowdays.

Well sorry to say it but yes you sounded like a retard. Just cause i'm a hunter doesn't mean a rogue will NEVER get an opener on me...... To say that is ignorant.

They can and will get openers on you ( not every time but it will happen )

you spout that i'm doing it all wrong but then you don't say anything about how to do it the correct way. So please show me your vast knowledge.

[Baracuda]

Subterfuge is being fixed in warlords, dunno about burst of speed.

[DechCJC]

Really? As if track hidden and and the constant BS with being knocked out of stealth for 0 reason all of the time isn't bad enough... On top of that, one randomly well placed blizzard or a massive aoe from a warlock can screw us up easily; When sub rogues rely on stealth, I feel like they need an easier way to open because right now it's just wayyyy too easy to hit a rogue before they open on you, at least with a few classes, especially as a hunter. Going against a hunter as a rogue is the biggest piss take ever simply due to how annoying it is to open on them. I mean literally, someone randomly blizzarding the rogue and taking them out at the wrong time can mean a loss, it's not even skill it's just a random placement.

I'm not saying it's 'balanced' - But a lot of other things in the game need tweaked just as much as subterfuge; I hardly think it's PvP's biggest problem (coming from someone who has seen PvP from a tonne of perspectives).

[ro9ue]

Rogue OP? Currently at 2400/2500 and haven't seen a rogue for a few days.
However what I see is boomies, ferals, mages and warlocks.

Yeah I think that's another major issue with rogues in general. They are gods in open world like Timeless Isle or random BGs. Probably even low ranked arenas. Unfortunately at high levels of play when utility and survivability come into play, they are the weakest.

There needs to be a bit of balance there. When you pop up on someone as a surprise, you have a huge advantage and can usually inflict some major pain before they even know what's going on. Now put me in a 3s match when they know I'm there and the whole team sits on a flare or spams AoE...

Plus if rogues get caught outside of their CDs they are fucked, meanwhile the other classes you mentioned have some substantial mid and short-length CDs.

I'd like to see a few glyphs or talent options available like:

Glyph of Rapid Recuperation
You heal for 60% of the full effect of Recoup instantly instead of over time.
Basically an option for a burst heal like Ember tap where you can build resources and trade DPS for survivability

Glyph of Avoidance
Your Evasion only increases dodge chance by 50% but reduces cool down by 50%.
Allows for more usage of defensive CD but at lower effectiveness.

Or something. Sorry getting OT. But to the point of rogues have great short game but in high level play with dedicated healers and more complex strategies, we are weak between CDs.

When I play my Mage or Warlock, I find there's always some sort of defensive action I can take throughout the right whether it's Blinking or Teleporting away, fearing, healing with Ember tap or a talented no CD evo, etc

[Littlepinch]

Really? As if track hidden and and the constant BS with being knocked out of stealth for 0 reason all of the time isn't bad enough... On top of that, one randomly well placed blizzard or a massive aoe from a warlock can screw us up easily; When sub rogues rely on stealth, I feel like they need an easier way to open because right now it's just wayyyy too easy to hit a rogue before they open on you, at least with a few classes, especially as a hunter. Going against a hunter as a rogue is the biggest piss take ever simply due to how annoying it is to open on them. I mean literally, someone randomly blizzarding the rogue and taking them out at the wrong time can mean a loss, it's not even skill it's just a random placement.

I'm not saying it's 'balanced' - But a lot of other things in the game need tweaked just as much as subterfuge; I hardly think it's PvP's biggest problem (coming from someone who has seen PvP from a tonne of perspectives).

Pretty sure those blizzards are not random - Takes a bit of luck yes but you can predict where you and your group will come from and place it there ( not really that hard )

But you have just as many ways to get back into stealth and re-open. So i don't really see the argument there.

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Yeah I think that's another major issue with rogues in general. They are gods in open world like Timeless Isle or random BGs. Probably even low ranked arenas. Unfortunately at high levels of play when utility and survivability come into play, they are the weakest.

There needs to be a bit of balance there. When you pop up on someone as a surprise, you have a huge advantage and can usually inflict some major pain before they even know what's going on. Now put me in a 3s match when they know I'm there and the whole team sits on a flare or spams AoE...

Plus if rogues get caught outside of their CDs they are fucked, meanwhile the other classes you mentioned have some substantial mid and short-length CDs.

Well said about the 3's matches - kind of the point i was trying to make. Depending on the setting the rogue will be the focus target because everyone knows if left alone said rogue will mess up your day.

[Kezuma]

Well sorry to say it but yes you sounded like a retard. Just cause i'm a hunter doesn't mean a rogue will NEVER get an opener on me...... To say that is ignorant.

They can and will get openers on you ( not every time but it will happen )

you spout that i'm doing it all wrong but then you don't say anything about how to do it the correct way. So please show me your vast knowledge.

CAMO + flare on top i want to see how the rogue will open on you , thats why i said in arenas and duels , in bgs everything is 2 chaotic to take it serious... so again if the rogue opens on you in even tho i sound like a retard your doing it fking wrong

[Littlepinch]

CAMO + flare on top i want to see how the rogue will open on you , thats why i said in arenas and duels , in bgs everything is 2 chaotic to take it serious... so again if the rogue opens on you in even tho i sound like a retard your doing it fking wrong

His partner say Hello ? We are not in a dual - We are in arenas with more then just the rogue around. Give your head a shake.

You sound as if every ones partners just stand around watching to rogue killing everything. Don't be ignorant.

When you are partnered up with a rogue, it's your job to get the hunter out of camo before said opener........ At least try to sound like you know what you're doing.

[Sesshou]

Call me a crybaby, and call me old-fashioned, but if a rogue is bad enough to let me open on him in stealth, he shouldn't be able to sprint to me at mounted speed and open on me as if it never happened. Is this crap getting removed in WoD?

That is all.

See i'd agree with you if they didn't give some people fucking enormous AEs that trivialize stealth without that. Like 300% larger RoF basically covers half of the arena and there is no way to get around it. Or Halo. Its shitty on both sides. We are heavily balanced around being able to open, but then they hand out massive AE's which make impossible, so then they hand out subterfuge so that we can still open if we get clipped if we're fast enough.

Also just in general, stealth is weaker in organized pvp because you already know they are there thus spamming crap trying to catch them.

Personally, I think subterfuge is kinda cheesy. But I also think that too many classes have really strong tools to unstealth us if they know we're coming (which they always do in arena or bg/rbgs) because expansions just keep increasing them.

[Kezuma]

His partner say Hello ? We are not in a dual - We are in arenas with more then just the rogue around. Give your head a shake.

You sound as if every ones partners just stand around watching to rogue killing everything. Don't be ignorant.

When you are partnered up with a rogue, it's your job to get the hunter out of camo before said opener........ At least try to sound like you know what you're doing.

just wow , 1st off all hunter is natural counter to rogue and in arena u can sit on a flare and faceroll rogues partner with your partner aswell , the rogue or his partner never ever ever will have the upperhand against you , if u choose to step out from the flare and your camo and traps for anything else than opening on the rogue partner again u;re doing it wrong , no matter how u look at it as a hunter u will always have an advantage against the rogue.

back on topic Subterfuge in WoD is getting fixed so OP can say thanks to blizz and if they nerf BoS the rogue will be totally useless his toolkit is not even close to other classes , a Shs with so long CD and a cloak and dagger that is useless BoS is in most cases the best choice

[Littlepinch]

just wow , 1st off all hunter is natural counter to rogue and in arena u can sit on a flare and faceroll rogues partner with your partner aswell , the rogue or his partner never ever ever will have the upperhand against you , if u choose to step out from the flare and your camo and traps for anything else than opening on the rogue partner again u;re doing it wrong , no matter how u look at it as a hunter u will always have an advantage against the rogue.

back on topic Subterfuge in WoD is getting fixed so OP can say thanks to blizz and if they nerf BoS the rogue will be totally useless his toolkit is not even close to other classes , a Shs with so long CD and a cloak and dagger that is useless BoS is in most cases the best choice

This has ignorant all over it. I'v sat inside my flare and still got opened up on ( with you know the skills we are talking about in this thread ) so to say just sit in your flare and if you get opened up on you're bad is just stupid.

To say that a rogue will NEVER have the upperhand on you is also ignorant.

Just cause it looks perfect on paper doesn't mean the worst will never happen. It's not a scripted boss fight.........