Heroic/Arena gear in the cash shop is NOT pay to win

[Chickat]

I would agree, but they could jsut go buy all the gear before other players have a chance to earn it.

[Itisamuh]

Basically what you said was: "It's not paying for an advantage, it's paying to not have a disadvantage." That's literally the same thing here.

That said, I'd happily buy conquest gear each season as long as it was reasonably cheap.

[Last Starfighter]

It's only pay to win if you gain an advantage by paying. Instead, you accelerate the diminishment of disadvantage. You still have the same learning curve as everyone else, and everyone can still get all the cards.

Its pay to progress faster.

It's not pay to win because a raider/pvper can get the same gear the paying player gets.What makes the difference is the time spent to do so.

It's pay to win. But you know that.

[roahn the warlock]

It's only pay to win if you gain an advantage by paying. Instead, you accelerate the diminishment of disadvantage. You still have the same learning curve as everyone else, and everyone can still get all the cards.

Its pay to progress faster.

It's not pay to win because a raider/pvper can get the same gear the paying player gets.What makes the difference is the time spent to do so.

this has to be bait. but just in case.

Progress, in wow, is winning. Just fyi.

[Jazzycakes]

Honor -> you get from participating in battle grounds / world pvp. You get it if you win or lose.
Conquest -> participating in RBGs / winning in areans

Maybe mid season if they allowed it sure it might be ok. It's just a lazy way of not losing 1000 RBGs...

However heroic gears you actually have to do something, whether you form a group and kill a boss, or pay a group to carry you.

[Toobad]

Poor OP, thinking MMOC can fathom a simple sarcasm...

[Templis]

I don't understand your logic. That's the very definition of "Pay to Win"

Pay to win in the context of MMOs is very ambiguous because 'winning' isn't possible in a game that receives regular new content and updates. You're never really buying anything except saved time.

If someone were to buy a full set of heroic SoO gear it wouldn't affect me at all, for example.

[Deleted]

SOOOOoooOOOO many people says "you are wrong!".
so, how many more feels the need to do so?

to make a change in the post ill say, that I understand what he is trying to say - just because you have the best gear, it dosnt make you better than others, and that is why he is saying its not P2W.

[HeedmySpeed]

this has to be bait. but just in case.

Progress, in wow, is winning. Just fyi.

Just like progressing through levels? Boosted 90's, anyone?

[Eternal Ice]

It's only pay to win if you gain an advantage by paying. Instead, you accelerate the diminishment of disadvantage. You still have the same learning curve as everyone else, and everyone can still get all the cards.

Its pay to progress faster.

It's not pay to win because a raider/pvper can get the same gear the paying player gets.What makes the difference is the time spent to do so.

Way too soon, you should at least wait until they start to sell gear before defending them.

[Raelbo]

"winning" in this game = obtaining the best gear.

I would argue that winning in this game is facilitated by obtaining the best gear, but obtaining the gear is not in and of itself winning. It's a subtle but important distinction. A terrible player will still not win the game no matter how much gear they buy. However, in an environment where top end gear can be bought it becomes very unlikely that a great player will be able to win without buying such gear.

[Deleted]

this is wrong, this is soooo wrong

[Raelbo]

Maybe if you can buy your weeks worth of CP/VP without having to do anything that may be ok since you're really just saving a few hours of time.

A very grey area this. Technically it probably wouldn't be pay-to-win because of the weekly caps meaning that anyone buying their CP/VP will never be able to get ahead of someone who earns all their currency the proper way. And while I wouldn't be particularly keen to see CP/VP being sold in the shop, I have to be bluntly honest and admit that I don't really have a good reason to oppose such a move because I don't believe it would affect my ability to compete in the slightest.

[Kaleredar]

I would argue that winning in this game is facilitated by obtaining the best gear, but obtaining the gear is not in and of itself winning. It's a subtle but important distinction. A terrible player will still not win the game no matter how much gear they buy. However, in an environment where top end gear can be bought it becomes very unlikely that a great player will be able to win without buying such gear.

Alright, but it certainly facilitates "winning," or reaching the "end" of WoW, as close as can be done.

I can't help but feel that the OP is trying to make some sort of stinted, not-so-"underhanded" point by trying to draw a parallel between being able to buy a level 90 (for a somewhat awkward chunk of money) and being able to buy top of the line gear. Seeing as he hasn't posted again in his own thread, I'm pretty sure he was trying to flamebait. To which I reiterate:

Acquiring top-of-the-line gear for PvE or PvP is a MUCH more intensive time investment, skill investment, and effective power increase than "reaching level 90."

[Mirishka]

It's only pay to win if you gain an advantage by paying. Instead, you accelerate the diminishment of disadvantage. You still have the same learning curve as everyone else, and everyone can still get all the cards.

Its pay to progress faster.

It's not pay to win because a raider/pvper can get the same gear the paying player gets.What makes the difference is the time spent to do so.

1. You're wrong. That would absolutely be pay2win.

2. That is never happening, rendering this topic as pointless as it is stupid.

[Raelbo]

Progress, in wow, is winning. Just fyi.

Progression at the current tier, in wow, is winning.

Just like progressing through levels? Boosted 90's, anyone?

Progressing through levels is not winning. That level of progress is way too far behind the cutting edge to be considered any kind of contest...

[DechCJC]

It really does annoy me that there are people like this in WoW, people that legitimately think that everything in the game should be on the in-game store and given the opportunity they would likely buy a full set of gear and then show it off in their capital city, trading people their items and whispering people: "Hey dude have you seen my gear? Pretty cool huh ". That is the kind of person I think of whenever people that buy items from the store come to mind.

More OT...

You really can not define 'winning' in World of Warcraft, there really is no ultimate goal and you could spend your entire time becoming the very best poke- I mean pet battler there ever was if you so desire; beating the game for you would be getting every pet, beating every player, every quest etc. With that being said, I'd say that ultimately the goal for everyone is roughly the same, they want to progress. Be that with gear, gold, arena rating or even individual skill levels, most people log on each day with the desire to become stronger in some way or form.

Gear is without a doubt where people get most of their fulfilment from, every character does it from the moment you level up a new character, to the point where you're doing dailies, heroics and bgs; to raids, challenge modes and arenas; And even after that, players will constantly look for cooler looking gear in the world that they can transmogrify. You can get all conquest gear in a season without being good at all, but being great will give access to the 'bloody dancing steel' enchantment which, in my opinion, is freaking beast; It's completely unique to above average and committed PvPer's.

If any player was able to buy this gear, these enchants, these transmogs etc, then the desire for every other player to actually go grab it from in-game means would be incredibly low. Imagine you're in an average heroic raiding guild but you finally clear heroic Garrosh after 6+ months but unfortunately you didn't get those awesome plate shoulders. So you keep farming, the expansion is only a few months away and you're losing hope that you'll get it before then, but suddenly you get it! 10 months into the tier you finally get that one item you wanted, you're just completely ecstatic. Then you hear about some rich 12 year old that got his parents to buy him a full set of the same gear in an instant (I'm assuming that top-end gear would be expensive), the player hadn't been 90 for more than a day and hadn't played WoW for more than a month. He was clueless, braindead, and you could outperform him in every aspect while being 100 ilvls below him; It just wouldn't be right.

Furthermore, buying gear would enforce world top guilds to do so in order to get the best edge possible; It would also undoubtedly cause a tonne of drama between players that buy gear and those that don't etc. The idea just has way too many problems and not only am I certain that it'll never happen, i'm certain that if it did happen the game would see a sub loss like we've never seen before.

[Raelbo]

Alright, but it certainly facilitates "winning," or reaching the "end" of WoW, as close as can be done.

I can't help but feel that the OP is trying to make some sort of stinted, not-so-"underhanded" point by trying to draw a parallel between being able to buy a level 90 (for a somewhat awkward chunk of money) and being able to buy top of the line gear. Seeing as he hasn't posted again in his own thread, I'm pretty sure he was trying to flamebait. To which I reiterate:

Acquiring top-of-the-line gear for PvE or PvP is a MUCH more intensive time investment, skill investment, and effective power increase than "reaching level 90."

I agree. I hope I didn't come across as disagreeing with your conclusions. The ability to buy current raid or conquest gear is absolutely pay-to-win, even though the gear itself doesn't represent the win.

[Deleted]

Pay to win for sure in my eyes!

[Thrael]

The only people who would want this change are people who aren't good enough to achieve it on their own. No doubt somebody will come out with the "casuals don't have time " argument in response to this, but that is bullshit. If you don't have time to play then don't play, simple as that.