Heroic/Arena gear in the cash shop is NOT pay to win

[Deleted]

Is this a troll or something? Because what you described is deffo Pay to Win

[Kezotar]

How is this more Pay to Win than buying level 90? You're not getting any kind of advantage more than a boosted 90 over a non boosted.

Player a) levels to 90, player b) buys a 90. Player B) skipped through leveling which still is a huge part of the game. it's still as far as I am registered a MMORPG.
player a) gets full hc, player b) buys full hc. player b skipped through much content and got the good gear.

If not buying a 90 isn't pay to win, then this isn't. stop qq, get this, i would buy.

[Deleted]

That is literally pay to win. What happens in Week 1 of a season when some rich dipshit has full season gear and stomps everybody into the ground like hes playing at 1k rating?

the current system of people quickly ranking up because they can play more, then gaming the system to keep that ranking, is better is it?

[Deleted]

OP left thread. OP is troll.

Infracted.

[Kaleredar]

How is this more Pay to Win than buying level 90? You're not getting any kind of advantage more than a boosted 90 over a non boosted.

Player a) levels to 90, player b) buys a 90. Player B) skipped through leveling which still is a huge part of the game. it's still as far as I am registered a MMORPG.
player a) gets full hc, player b) buys full hc. player b skipped through much content and got the good gear.

If not buying a 90 isn't pay to win, then this isn't. stop qq, get this, i would buy.

You're in luck; I answered your very question on the page before this one:

Acquiring top-of-the-line gear for PvE or PvP is a MUCH more intensive time investment, skill investment, and effective power increase than "reaching level 90."

[Deleted]

selling arena or raid gear would take away the gearing progress completly and then why have gear teirs, no it wont happend and it cant happen, its against wow basics

[Raelbo]

How is this more Pay to Win than buying level 90? You're not getting any kind of advantage more than a boosted 90 over a non boosted.

Winning means beating the best. That means competing at the front of the pack, not near the back.

Player a) levels to 90, player b) buys a 90. Player B) skipped through leveling which still is a huge part of the game.

Not really. Player A) has at least 1 level 90 decked out in a mix of Normal/HC SoO gear. Take it from there, because THAT is where the game is at the moment. There is no scenario in which player B) will be at any kind of advantage in terms of competitive play over Player from being able to buy a level 90.

player a) gets full hc, player b) buys full hc. player b skipped through much content and got the good gear.

Not really. Player A) doesn't have full hc. Player B) is at a huge advantage.

If buying a 90 isn't pay to win, then this isn't. stop qq, get this, i would buy.

Stop trying to compare two things which are completely different. Buying a level 90 isn't pay to win. Buying current raid/conquest gear is. It's not rocket science.

[Kezotar]

You're in luck; I answered your very question on the page before this one:

Acquiring top-of-the-line gear for PvE or PvP is a MUCH more intensive time investment, skill investment, and effective power increase than "reaching level 90."

I'm not in luck. Who cares how much more time or whatsoever you invest. It's a shortcut. If one or the other is a bigger it's still a pay to win function, no matter the differences in investments. Clearly, you're still wrong.

- - - Updated - - -

Winning means beating the best. That means competing at the front of the pack, not near the back.



Not really. Player A) has at least 1 level 90 decked out in a mix of Normal/HC SoO gear. Take it from there, because THAT is where the game is at the moment. There is no scenario in which player B) will be at any kind of advantage in terms of competitive play over Player from being able to buy a level 90.



Not really. Player A) doesn't have full hc. Player B) is at a huge advantage.



Stop trying to compare two things which are completely different. Buying a level 90 isn't pay to win. Buying current raid/conquest gear is. It's not rocket science.

Stop trying to make a bigger investment vs a lesser one having a difference. They're both pay to win...
It doens't matter if you get even a free heroic dungeon or even a heroic raid, pay to win. Even if you get from level 1-40 it's pay to win. In general, items you recieve that have benfits compared to other players, such as .. speed of leveling and items is pay to win.


Might I add, I'm not a PVE'r meaning that recieving a instant 90 is a huge win, all I have to do is do arena with buddies and I'm 2400 within hours and bis gear. That's clearly pay to win, and not smart use of game mechanics.

[Kaleredar]

I'm not in luck. Who cares how much more time or whatsoever you invest. It's a shortcut. If one or the other is a bigger it's still a pay to win function, no matter the differences in investments. Clearly, you're still wrong.

The end game of WoW is where the competition of the game comes in and, frankly, where the heart of the game lies. Buying gear gives you an immediate advantage over other players. Making your character level 90 does not.

Perhaps the ability to buy level 90s (for the cost of four month's subscription) offended you in some way, or violated some sacrosanct idea you thought Blizzard was founded upon. But even if you do feel that way, you shouldn't be obstinate for the sake of being obstinate.

[Templis]

The end game of WoW is where the competition of the game comes in and, frankly, where the heart of the game lies.

The competition you describe exists only amongst an incredibly niche and small portion of the playerbase. Everyone else is mainly concerned about their own character's progression via increasing their item level at that point.

Buying gear gives you an immediate advantage over other players.

How? How does someone having heroic raid gear give them an advantage over me any more than someone buying a level 90? It doesn't affect my character progression in any way.

If there were a way to buy your way out of the horrible fresh 90 dungeon/heroic/LFR/Flex gear grind, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

[Kaleredar]

The competition you describe exists only amongst an incredibly niche and small portion of the playerbase.

Doesn't change the fact that being level 90 doesn't give you anything other than "not being not level 90." Said characters beneath level 90 have little bearing on the game, and people who aren't invested in leveling their character to level 90 as quickly as possible or doing end-game things probably aren't too bothered by the fact that you can buy them.

Everyone else is mainly concerned about their own character's progression via increasing their item level at that point.

...And buying gear would be a massive boost to your ilevel

How? How does someone having heroic raid gear give them an advantage over me any more than someone buying a level 90? It doesn't affect my character progression in any way.

In competition for raid spots? Yes. In PvP? Absolutely.

Does buying a level 90 put you ahead of someone who's already level 90? No. In fact, come WoD, you'll be 10 levels behind max level anyway.

If there were a way to buy your way out of the horrible fresh 90 dungeon/heroic/LFR/Flex gear grind, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'd be more inclined to say such a system shouldn't exist in the first place. I'd say heroic dungeons should drop gear better than LFR, but be more difficult. I'm honestly not sure what Blizzard is trying to accomplish by making them more difficult than LFR with an entrance barrier but have them reward lesser gear.

[UnluckyAmateur]

This is literally pay to win and you just explained it yourself.

It's only pay to win if you gain an advantage by paying.

Last time I checked, Gear gives you a huge advantage. This is too funny to be serious.

[Kaleredar]

This is literally pay to win and you just explained it yourself.



Last time I checked, Gear gives you a huge advantage. This is too funny to be serious.

Like I said, I'm 90% sure the OP is trying to be "sneaky" and make some protracted point because they dislike the concept of buying level 90 characters and want to be passive-aggressive about it.

Of course, they seem to have abandoned their own thread, likely thinking they made some sort of point.

[Templis]

Doesn't change the fact that being level 90 doesn't give you anything other than "not being not level 90." Said characters beneath level 90 have little bearing on the game, and people who aren't invested in leveling their character to level 90 as quickly as possible or doing end-game things probably aren't too bothered by the fact that you can buy them.

That's an odd place to argue from. Players beneath level 90 are still on a progression path. You're just arguing semantics by trying to allocate them along an arbitrary scale of importance.

...And buying gear would be a massive boost to your ilevel

Depends on where you're boosting from. Buying a level 90 is also a massive boost to your ilevel. Would you be ok with only letting heroic raiders buy the gear?

In competition for raid spots? Yes. In PvP? Absolutely.

There's no shortage of raid spots, and you'd only be losing time by having to acquire the gear yourself. I also don't see the problem in PVP. If you want to be competitive in PVP, get PVP gear or roll on a PVE server where you can fight on your own terms. Freshly boosted 90s can instantly head to the dark portal and gank level 50s for hours on end. So what?

In fact, come WoD, you'll be 10 levels behind max level anyway.

I'd put money on that changing early into the expansion, maybe one or two major patches in. That's usually when the first XP buffs for the new content are launched.

I'd be more inclined to say such a system shouldn't exist in the first place. I'd say heroic dungeons should drop gear better than LFR, but be more difficult. I'm honestly not sure what Blizzard is trying to accomplish by making them more difficult than LFR with an entrance barrier but have them reward lesser gear.

I totally agree.

[Sxythor]

That is literally pay to win. What happens in Week 1 of a season when some rich dipshit has full season gear and stomps everybody into the ground like hes playing at 1k rating?

I agree, It makes a huge difference

[Kezotar]

The end game of WoW is where the competition of the game comes in and, frankly, where the heart of the game lies. Buying gear gives you an immediate advantage over other players. Making your character level 90 does not.

Perhaps the ability to buy level 90s (for the cost of four month's subscription) offended you in some way, or violated some sacrosanct idea you thought Blizzard was founded upon. But even if you do feel that way, you shouldn't be obstinate for the sake of being obstinate.

None of that offended me. I'm happy buying instant 90s. I buy WoW up to MOP in a bundle for 30 EUR, buy the instant 90 for 50, sell them at 2400 rating for 300 EUR: That's 220 in a total of 40 arena games. I'm happy, just wish Blizzard would sell Conquest Gear which would make everything even more easier as then I wouldn't have to start with green gear. I'm just saying, win either way. Leveling or raiding, your definition, or even the majority can't decide that for me.

[Kaleredar]

That's an odd place to argue from. Players beneath level 90 are still on a progression path. You're just arguing semantics by trying to allocate them along an arbitrary scale of importance.

All evidence from Blizzard and their design direction seems to indicate that these players are more or less unimportant, so far as their experience being the core of the game. If leveling were indeed important, they would continue to update the leveling experience just as they update major end game content patches. Simply put, they do not do this. So there's really no "arbitrary" factor about it, and it really shouldn't be that hard to see that. As I said to Kezotar, you might not agree with the design direction of allowing people to buy level 90s, but that's no reason to be obstinate for the sake of being obstinate.

And as for the people who legitimately don't care about reaching level 90 as fast as possible... Why would they care about the ability to buy level 90s?

Depends on where you're boosting from. Buying a level 90 is also a massive boost to your ilevel. Would you be ok with only letting heroic raiders buy the gear?

It's not a boost to a level 90's ilevel... at least, not compared to items provided by the timeless isle. And again, come WoD, it wont matter, seeing as they'll be reaching max level in questing gear like everyone else.

There's no shortage of raid spots, and you'd only be losing time by having to acquire the gear yourself.

A very, very long time. Certainly more than the time it gets someone "trying" to get to level 90. Which again, is not the core of the game.

I also don't see the problem in PVP. If you want to be competitive in PVP, get PVP gear or roll on a PVE server where you can fight on your own terms. Freshly boosted 90s can instantly head to the dark portal and gank level 50s for hours on end. So what?

In rated PvP? It's absolutely an advantage. The OP was talking about selling PvP gear as well as PvE gear.

I'd put money on that changing early into the expansion, maybe one or two major patches in. That's usually when the first XP buffs for the new content are launched.

I somewhat doubt that. Maybe at the very end of WoD.

None of that offended me. I'm happy buying instant 90s. I buy WoW up to MOP in a bundle for 30 EUR, buy the instant 90 for 50, sell them at 2400 rating for 300 EUR: That's 220 in a total of 40 arena games. I'm happy, just wish Blizzard would sell Conquest Gear which would make everything even more easier as then I wouldn't have to start with green gear. I'm just saying, win either way. Leveling or raiding, your definition, or even the majority can't decide that for me.

Forgive me if I don't get choked up if Blizzard's decision to or not to do something doesn't properly "assess the potential edification of rating sellers."

[ItachiZaku]

It's only pay to win if you gain an advantage by paying. Instead, you accelerate the diminishment of disadvantage. You still have the same learning curve as everyone else, and everyone can still get all the cards.

Ok, fine. By this assertion, there is NO pay to win ever, anywhere.

[Dilbon]

Ok, fine. By this assertion, there is NO pay to win ever, anywhere.

This man gets it. Pay to win does not exist.

[Raelbo]

Stop trying to make a bigger investment vs a lesser one having a difference. They're both pay to win...

You do understand the meaning of the word "win" right? It means coming first. It means being the best. I could even accept stretching that definition in this context to mean coming in near the top, or better than most. Winning is not making it into the 20th percentile, or coming 8 millionth out of 10 million.

So, yes, both help to advance your character, but only one is pay to WIN, while the other is pay to not be the worst.

It doens't matter if you get even a free heroic dungeon or even a heroic raid, pay to win.

Oh yes it does! There is a world of difference between heroic dungeons and SoO hc because 95% percent of players have completed heroic dungeons while 95% of players haven't completed SoO hc. Completing one of the two makes you a "winner", while completing the other means pretty much nothing.

Even if you get from level 1-40 it's pay to win. In general, items you recieve that have benfits compared to other players, such as .. speed of leveling and items is pay to win.

In general items you receive that benefits you compared to the players who are "winning" are pay-to-win.

Might I add, I'm not a PVE'r meaning that recieving a instant 90 is a huge win, all I have to do is do arena with buddies and I'm 2400 within hours and bis gear. That's clearly pay to win, and not smart use of game mechanics.

So what is more important in this little example? The getting to 90 quickly bit, or the friends to boost you (combined with your personal skill level based on years of playing)? Because hell, I can easily get a character to level 90. Hell, I already have 3 level 90s. But I don't have a 2400 rating. I can spend as much money as I like on character boosts, but it ain't getting me any closer to winning an arena season than I already am. The best that a character boost can do is help to reduce the setback I would suffer from trying out a new class.

- - - Updated - - -

Then again: Let the average Joe (even the not so average Joe) buy epic pve gear and I swear, Method, Paragon et al will still clear all raids faster in their normally attained gear. There are now people literally in ilv 560+ gear who still cannot clear heroic SoO - while top guilds did it in ToT gear

While this point is true, consider the situation where either Method or Paragon decides to buy epic PvE gear and the other does not. Who do you think will win?

Pay to Win is not defined according to whether an individual will win if they choose to use it. It's about not being able to win if you don't use it.