Mage Nether Tempest..Pain in the ass now

[Grahamington]

For you fellow mages on the BETA...Do you also feel like the Nether Tempest only being able to be on one target at a time is pretty weak and annoying? Maybe I'm just bitching but whatever...frustrating...

[Wrathonia]

Why? Instead of being on a target and hitting one random other target, it instead does a full blown aoe pulse. Isn't that superior? Why would you not like that?

[MoanaLisa]

Moving this to the mage forum since this is not really a General Discussion topic.

[Grahamington]

It isn't as useful for pulling a lot of mobs haha. I like putting nether tempest on all my targets cause in the end it's faster and higher dps.

[Segus1992]

I believe they said that it didn't feel right that Mages became a multi-dotting class because of Nether Tempest? I may be wrong though.

[Not Againnn]

I believe they said that it didn't feel right that Mages became a multi-dotting class because of Nether Tempest? I may be wrong though.

they are about 1 billion years old with that philosophy because fire mages have been multi dotting since wotlk

[Coconut]

I'm not in the beta, but I love the multi-dotting version of Nether Tempest, both the chaotic visuals of having it on many targets, and the gameplay. Being able to pull multiple mobs while farming was good QoL.

I can't understand what's wrong with one mage spec being able to multi-dot, considering the feeling you got from playing it like that was more enjoyable. Now I will probably free up that bind and pick a different talent.

[Imnick]

Not going to lie, while I enjoy multi-dotting it does get a bit tiresome trying to keep it up on more than three targets.
You start running out of time to do anything but cast Nether Tempest.

I love the visual but frankly I think this will be better for my quality of life.

[schwarzkopf]

they are about 1 billion years old with that philosophy because fire mages have been multi dotting since wotlk

But not with a DoT spell. DoT was always a side effect for fire mages.

[Imnick]

But not with a DoT spell. DoT was always a side effect for fire mages.

Living Bomb was added in Wrath and for a long time it didn't have a target cap, I can attest that Fire Mages definitely did manually multi-DOT, at least in Icecrown Citadel.
The addition of Impact in Cataclysm made it much easier though. I'm glad that's returning (and not even as an unreliable proc like it was before!)

[DeathDefier]

Living Bomb was added in Wrath and for a long time it didn't have a target cap, I can attest that Fire Mages definitely did manually multi-DOT, at least in Icecrown Citadel.
The addition of Impact in Cataclysm made it much easier though. I'm glad that's returning (and not even as an unreliable proc like it was before!)

No target cap AND it procced hot streak so multi dotting up a ton of stuff let you spam out pyros.

[Polarthief]

It isn't as useful for pulling a lot of mobs haha. I like putting nether tempest on all my targets cause in the end it's faster and higher dps.

It's not meant to pull mobs necessarily. Also, 1 NT doing 100% damage to all targets is significantly stronger than spamming your GCDs to put NT on all targets for 100% + 50% to one target.

Trust me when I say, it's significantly slower and lower DPS in the end. I don't see how using 10 globals on 10 targets is "faster" than 1 global on 1 target FOR 10 targets.

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The addition of Impact in Cataclysm made it much easier though. I'm glad that's returning (and not even as an unreliable proc like it was before!)

"Returning"? o_0 It's been in MoP with Inferno Blast (and its spreading does have a target cap, both live and in WoD)

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No target cap AND it procced hot streak so multi dotting up a ton of stuff let you spam out pyros.

A DoT that procced Hot Streak. Not sure if you remember or not, but it was a mess trying to keep track of. Not a good thing. Very glad they went with the "direct damage sources only" route.

[Imnick]

"Returning"? o_0 It's been in MoP with Inferno Blast (and its spreading does have a target cap, both live and in WoD)

Inferno Blast hasn't spread Living Bomb since it stopped being a proc, in WoD it will spread Living Bomb again, which also won't have a target cap any more.
Inferno Blast will still have a target cap, but it will still make applying the DoT to a bunch of targets far easier than it has been to use Nether Tempest for the same thing.

[Coconut]

It's not meant to pull mobs necessarily. Also, 1 NT doing 100% damage to all targets is significantly stronger than spamming your GCDs to put NT on all targets for 100% + 50% to one target.

Trust me when I say, it's significantly slower and lower DPS in the end. I don't see how using 10 globals on 10 targets is "faster" than 1 global on 1 target FOR 10 targets.

I think a lot of people, myself included are more concerned with how the gameplay "feels" rather than what their DPS will be. I'm sure the damage will be more or less balanced in the end, with some spells being more or less efficient for different situations. It's ultimately irrelevant.

NT allowed a little bit of gameplay variation for fights with a lot of targets, without the need of multiple keybinds for an entirely different rotation. Refreshing it on secondary targets also paid off as an AM proc for the main target, so doing it felt rewarding and interacted with your main rotation. To me, playing arcane with the MoP version of NT was an enjoyable experience, and it would have been even more so with the removal of snapshotting (as a more reliable AM proc tool).

Gameplay-wise the new version is just another button you have to press every X seconds, even if it procs missiles it's not going to be reliable as it doesn't happen often enough (just like current frost bomb). Fluid, interactive gameplay feels better than standard rotation.

[Polarthief]

Inferno Blast hasn't spread Living Bomb since it stopped being a proc, in WoD it will spread Living Bomb again, which also won't have a target cap any more.
Inferno Blast will still have a target cap, but it will still make applying the DoT to a bunch of targets far easier than it has been to use Nether Tempest for the same thing.

Ahh okay. The way you were talking about Impact specifically made me think you were referring to it (Impact) returning. Got confused

I think a lot of people, myself included are more concerned with how the gameplay "feels" rather than what their DPS will be. I'm sure the damage will be more or less balanced in the end, with some spells being more or less efficient for different situations. It's ultimately irrelevant.

TBH I feel like one AoE DoT is way better than spamming it on a million targets. I honestly disliked multi-dotting, which is why I quit Warlock in BC in the first place. I really hated Siege (and to an extent, the end of ToT) for what it turned us into.

Gameplay-wise the new version is just another button you have to press every X seconds, even if it procs missiles it's not going to be reliable as it doesn't happen often enough (just like current frost bomb). Fluid, interactive gameplay feels better than standard rotation.

I don't understand this at all. Live NT procs missiles on-cast. New NT will not proc at all, but that's not really the key point here (and even if it did, why bother talking about it? It would still proc them on-cast and wouldn't be changed from live at all). Anyways, on bosses (on Live), regardless of what bomb you use, you cast it when it needs to be refreshed; how is this any different than WoD? The only differences I see with the bombs are NT only needs to be on 1 target (no change on single targets) and FB is only used when you have FoF procs (can't even be used with Arcane). At the very least, now there's two additional choices you can pick, one being a passive and another being, well, a rotational CD.

Personally, I really like new NT. An AoE DoT is a really neat concept.

[Coconut]

I don't understand this at all. Live NT procs missiles on-cast. New NT will not proc at all, but that's not really the key point here (and even if it did, why bother talking about it? It would still proc them on-cast and wouldn't be changed from live at all). Anyways, on bosses (on Live), regardless of what bomb you use, you cast it when it needs to be refreshed; how is this any different than WoD? The only differences I see with the bombs are NT only needs to be on 1 target (no change on single targets) and FB is only used when you have FoF procs (can't even be used with Arcane). At the very least, now there's two additional choices you can pick, one being a passive and another being, well, a rotational CD.

Personally, I really like new NT. An AoE DoT is a really neat concept.

Refreshing NT early is a way to fish for an AM proc when you really need it that is cheaper than another arcane blast at maximum stacks (I was mostly using this at Elegon during 5.1, when it was hard to build 6 stacks between orbs and they were kind of needed for the burst). Using it on multiple targets while you are at 4 stacks gives you a pretty high chance you will get another AM or two by the time you finish re-dotting.

You can go ahead and say that this is not correct play, but it is fun; you use a spell and you have a chance at creating a resource (the AM proc). If there's a burst incoming and you need the procs, you can gamble the cgds of reapplying your dots early (even more so if you don't have to consider snapshotting) for a chance to be prepared for the crucial phase.

An AoE dot is not really that interesting, and it's too dependent on other players. Your DoT is only effective if the tanks stack the adds on top of the boss, or dungeon trash on top of each other, and this is really their skill and contribution, not yours.

[Polarthief]

You can go ahead and say that this is not correct play, but it is fun; you use a spell and you have a chance at creating a resource (the AM proc). If there's a burst incoming and you need the procs, you can gamble the cgds of reapplying your dots early (even more so if you don't have to consider snapshotting) for a chance to be prepared for the crucial phase.

I won't say it's incorrect play because "correct play" = "what is the most efficient way to maximize your DPS". I will however say that it wasn't intended, otherwise, Blizzard would have allowed it to stay.

An AoE dot is not really that interesting, and it's too dependent on other players. Your DoT is only effective if the tanks stack the adds on top of the boss, or dungeon trash on top of each other, and this is really their skill and contribution, not yours.

Is this really that much of a concern though? If stuff's meant to be AoE'd down, what tank is going to keep them separated? (better yet, HOW will a single tank keep things separated? That means he's bad at aggro) At least it isn't like PC where if stuff moves from it, you aren't fucked because the DoT sticks on the target. Also, the range is 10 yards out from the target (equal to an unglyphed AE), and that's a decent sized range.

[Coconut]

I won't say it's incorrect play because "correct play" = "what is the most efficient way to maximize your DPS". I will however say that it wasn't intended, otherwise, Blizzard would have allowed it to stay.

You can't say ability mechanics were not intended just because they are being changed as part of a larger scale pruning and class revamp. Scorch spamming was unintended - it severely affected both the rotation and the flavor of the spec, and the talent was removed and given to Fire.

It was intended for NT to proc AM, and it was fitting that the Arcane-flavored bomb meshed a little bit better with the arcane spells. It's not like the rotation became "spam NT on target and cast AM on proc".

This has more to do with the philosophical choice they made that Mages should be single target nukers. But, will the resulting gameplay be more intuitive and enjoyable? I fear it won't, since this particular ability, multi-dot as it was, worked very well with everything else.

Is this really that much of a concern though? If stuff's meant to be AoE'd down, what tank is going to keep them separated? (better yet, HOW will a single tank keep things separated? That means he's bad at aggro) At least it isn't like PC where if stuff moves from it, you aren't fucked because the DoT sticks on the target. Also, the range is 10 yards out from the target (equal to an unglyphed AE), and that's a decent sized range.

But this is not a cleave/aoe that you switch to when dealing with multiple enemies. It's a dot you keep on a target 100% of the time, and it does or doesn't do AoE based on whether or not there are enemies around. On something like Garrosh phase 1, you just leave it on the boss and lol at the meters, but in an encounter with heavy add control like Horridon, there's a conflict between the fact that you want to switch to the highest priority add right away, and the fact that your dot deals a lot more damage staying on the adds that are already clumped up on the offtank. If your group's strategy allows for dps to offtank some adds as well, it's just gonna be a clusterfuck.

Encounters where everything just stacks up aren't that exciting... Will is a better encounter than Wind Lord, for example. I think we should have abilities/rotations geared towards better PvE content, rather than something that only works on the basics.

Not sure if 10 yards is enough or not. It might be, but just because the range is lenient that doesn't mean the mechanic is good, just think of RoP and its quite silly radius increase...

[Polarthief]

It was intended for NT to proc AM, and it was fitting that the Arcane-flavored bomb meshed a little bit better with the arcane spells. It's not like the rotation became "spam NT on target and cast AM on proc".

Casting NT on a target? Intended. Fishing for AM procs through use of NT? Not intended. They also want to 100% split talents from baseline class, which is actually a step in the wrong direction. I'm personally a huge fan of synergy and this is actually disappointing to me, despite me understanding why they're doing it.

This has more to do with the philosophical choice they made that Mages should be single target nukers.

What? If anything we've gained significant AoE power in this expansion... They simply didn't want us being all out on DoTs. Even Fire with its decent number of DoTs (Pyro, Ignite, Combustion, Flamestrike for AoE, and LB if you pick it) has you doing very little directly with DoTs (except for LB).

But this is not a cleave/aoe that you switch to when dealing with multiple enemies. It's a dot you keep on a target 100% of the time, and it does or doesn't do AoE based on whether or not there are enemies around. On something like Garrosh phase 1, you just leave it on the boss and lol at the meters, but in an encounter with heavy add control like Horridon, there's a conflict between the fact that you want to switch to the highest priority add right away, and the fact that your dot deals a lot more damage staying on the adds that are already clumped up on the offtank. If your group's strategy allows for dps to offtank some adds as well, it's just gonna be a clusterfuck.

Why is this not a thing you switch when dealing with multiple targets? I personally think it's quite the opposite; to be used as a conventional DoT when there's no other targets, and to be put on the stack of mobs, and ABL/AM spam the priority target/boss. You don't have to be nuking your DoT target, and on a target that's meant to be nuked down in a very short duration, your DoT won't make too much of a difference anyways.

Encounters where everything just stacks up aren't that exciting... Will is a better encounter than Wind Lord, for example. I think we should have abilities/rotations geared towards better PvE content, rather than something that only works on the basics.

Wind Lord is a bad fight for many reasons. The one thing I actually found fun with it was the consistent (and ridiculous) AoE damage anyone could do to it, but this is all besides the point. I honestly don't see this as a problem when an ability has two functions, both of which are roughly the same*. Yes, you will be keeping NT on a single target if he's the only target, but at the same time, I don't think NT is meant to be kept on a single target if you have a cluster of bad guys off in the corner. Frost Bomb, by example, is no longer meant to be a "fire and forget, then recast when you can" ability. It too has changed significantly in its design and is now only cast when you have FoFs ready for it.

* I see Inferno Blast as a bad ability because it's both rotational and saved for specific timings to significantly increase AoE throughput. NT will always be a benefit to keep up on the largest cluster of baddies.

Not sure if 10 yards is enough or not. It might be, but just because the range is lenient that doesn't mean the mechanic is good, just think of RoP and its quite silly radius increase...

You're comparing an ability that requires you to stand in a small circle so you maximize your DPS vs keeping a DoT on a cluster of enemies instead of a single enemy. That's like comparing a car to a horse-and-buggy.

[Coconut]

Fishing for AM with NT is just like fishing for AM with AB at max stacks, something you do in specific circumstances, or when the fight allows it, or every now and then if you feel like gambling, otherwise it's a dps loss. It's just that the drawbacks are slightly different (mana loss versus gcd). FB and LB can proc AM as well, they just can't do so reliably because of the limited targets and the fact that you can't refresh them on demand.

I can concede to you on many points, but not that this was an unintended effect. It's not game breaking in any way and it doesn't distract from the spec rotation, quite the contrary, it's simply interesting gameplay. Do you think it's a coincidence that bombs proc AM, and that NT is arcane-themed? If they didn't want it to behave like this, they would have given AB a slightly higher chance to proc missiles and bombs wouldn't have procced them at all.

I guess I'm disappointed that even as they decided to give each spec its appropriate bomb (even though it's still a talent), they are taking away the synergies that made NT work well with Arcane... and it's even harder to explain when, as you mentioned, they are giving FB a synergy with Frost.

The new NT is simply a stand alone ability that takes up a keybind and does is own thing. It's boring, and a worse design than what we have now. I think I would have liked it better as targetable AoE, so it could at least preserve the visuals.