Quick tips on Demonology for 5 mans?

[Lovestar]

Hey guys, I'm currently leveling another Lock on a new account, and I always level through dungeon spam because I just love doing that for some reason.

I picked up a Demo dual spec at 30 just for DA tanking (♥ Lock tanking), but on a whim I tried actually DPSing as Demo and I'm having a lot of fun. It's making Lock DPS feel fun and cool again after sort-of burning out on Destro.

But, I really have no idea how to use Demo for DPS (I was always Destro at 90 unless DA tanking), and it shows; I can tell my damage isn't very good. Can anyone give me some quick starter advice on how to handle dungeons as Demo? My experiences so far have been fun (I love the toolbox!) but also disappointing (I can't accomplish anything effective).

Single-target
I don't have Molten Core yet (level 69? Really Blizzard?) so I just ignore Soul Fire completely. And since actually pulling off Demo's slow-burn opening cycle in leveling dungeons is approximately impossible, what I do instead is save up Fury to max on the trash before a boss and then HoG → Corr → Meta → Doom → spam Touch until it's dead.

OMG THIS TANK IS INSANE targets
Giant AoE doesn't feel as strong as Destro for some reason; I really don't know what to do besides sit there while Hellfire channels (or Immo Aura ticks down my Fury). Destro's Rain of Fire → F&B Immo → F&B Corr → F&B Incin consistently rips aggro off tanks (hehehe), but as Demo I feel like I have no 'oomph' during huge pulls.

Cleavey
Then there's the in-between — the 'cleave' zone with 2-4ish targets. Here as Destro I manually multidot Immo, keep Havoc on CD, Rain down, and then just single-target burn sequentially. As Demo, I have no idea what to do on cleavey packs — I multidot Corruption and Doom, and then... uh ... cast a few pathetic Shadow Bolts and feel useless.

I know it's just 5mans / leveling, but still — trying to do my best in PvE is fun and rewarding for me, even in fluff content. And I just can't figure out to use Demo well in dungeons. It gave me similar fits during Proving Grounds on 5.4 PTR, when I had to deal with all the chain-trash and couldn't find a good solution to anything.

Thanks to anyone who can help.

[Avido77]

I really like how detailed and specific your questions are here, and hopefully someone can provide a better answer than I can. Destruction (in my opinion) will greatly outperform Demonology in an environment where there are many short-lived low-health mobs. Shadowburn + high amounts of embers is just too strong for Demonology's toolkit. I don't know what either spec has access to at level 69, really, but it seems reasonable to compare dungeons to the Spoils of Pandaria encounter, where Demonology can be downright painful to play and Destruction is handing out Shadowburns like Oprah.

My best suggestion is to try and snipe killing blows in Metamorphosis, which returns 200 Fury and allows you to keep punishing in Meta. At least, it works this way at level 90. Wait until an AoE pack is low on health, then pop Meta and Immolation Aura + Chaos Wave: this will generally fill you up on Fury unless there is someone else in the group doing a ton of damage. Corruption, Doom, and HoG weaving are great if something is going to live longer, but really in leveling dungeons hard-hitting ToC and Chaos Wave snipes will carry you into the next pack. Use Fury to gain Fury.

Boss fights are fun to pop all your cooldowns on as well. Blow everything on the pull (Dark Soul, Imp Swarm, Service, Trinkets) because snapshotting is -for now- a big part of Demo. Going into the boss fight with a lot of Fury is a big plus.

My honest opinion, though, is that it doesn't matter while leveling. I'm glad you are trying to maximize your dps, but the best thing to do in that regard is get to 90, lol. But be sure to have fun on the way. <3 me some Demo

[Lovestar]

Shadowburn + high amounts of embers is just too strong for Demonology's toolkit.

This is what's kind of boggling me, I'm so used to Destro (I leveled my old Lock 10-90 as Destro) that it feels weird to not just be tearing everything apart. Like you said, Shadowburn chains to keep F&B and Havoc CBs flowing just totally steamrolls trash packs. I guess I never realized Destro was special like this, I thought Locks were just hardcore, haha.

My best suggestion is to try and snipe killing blows in Metamorphosis, which returns 200 Fury and allows you to keep punishing in Meta.

This is pretty much what I've learned to try to do right now; either through Hellfire or Immo/CWave I usually end up sitting at a constant max Fury until I reach a 'small' pack that doesn't justify AoE and have to start spamming Touch to kill mobs. As soon as I actually run out of Fury everything goes downhill and I feel useless for a few pulls.

Is Destro just really imbalanced now or something? It feels like compared to Demo, it has absolutely no real tradeoffs or weaknesses. (Sorry if that's a dumb question, I've been away from WoW & especially Lock for a bit of time)

[Soulzar]

You are going up against a fairly solid toolkit with Destro when it comes to lots of trash packs like 5 mans. While Demo itself is a very strong spec for 5 mans, the way Destro generates resources while AoEing while Demo does not, is a key reason why Destro pulls ahead IMO.

As for 5 man tips, I would say;

Use the trash to ensure you go into boss fights with a full bank of fury.
Get used to using GoServ, stacking double felstorms for large pulls or better boss burst.
Use Imp Swarm Glyph. While it is not best for sustained in a raid environment (op racials aside), its dominates 30 second burst fights like those in 5 mans.

Also you should have gotten Immolation Aura at 62 which I do not think you mentioned in your Demo AoE rotation. After double stacking your HoG and jumping into Meta for the dmg buff, pop up your Immolation aura and use Carrion Wave (glyphed). After that you h ave two options, Spam ToC and hope to snipe killing blows for 200 fury refund, or tab dooms around. in 5 mans tabbing dooms probably wont be worth it as nothing last long enough. Remember Felstorm is not on your global and can be used at any point you are doing the above.

And finally, from somebody who has been Dungeon Finder tank lvling a DK the past week... Don't be that lock running around in 5 mans with his voidwalker out About 90% of locks I've been grouped with are running the blueberry

[Lovestar]

Thanks! I've been keeping at it — Demo has so much style and coolness, and it just makes me happy to have my FG, my army of imps, my pretty wings, and be running around exploding fire as a big purple demon. So I've been stubbornly practicing with it, and I'm doing a lot better with Demo now. (Sadly though, even when I'm absolutely working my butt off, I just can't compete with Destro — I drop about 10-15% in % dmg done when I swap to Demo. >.<)

You are going up against a fairly solid toolkit with Destro when it comes to lots of trash packs like 5 mans. While Demo itself is a very strong spec for 5 mans, the way Destro generates resources while AoEing while Demo does not, is a key reason why Destro pulls ahead IMO.

Yes, I think this is a good summary. As Demo I do pretty respectable damage, it's pretty competitive with other 'normal' DPS in the group, but then I run out of resources sooner or later and things get pretty bad for a pull while I bring Fury back up.

Destro, on the other hand, is fueled by death and suffering. The more stuff there is to kill, the more resources Destro has; between Shadowburn and F&B, I'm usually drowning in more Embers than I can ever hope to spend, no matter the pull size. And this unbreakable momentum just obliterates my methodical Demo planning.

I find I do quite respectable with Demo when I get a Tank that pulls HUGE room-sized packs. Because all my CDs (HoG, Felstorm, etc) come back up while the tank is running around rounding everything up, and in the meantime, I can follow and Corruption everything as it chases him to the gathering point.

On the other hand, when a tank follows a more 'normal' style of small packs of 3-5 mobs at a time, it's really painful — it feels like the DPS equivalent of a classic Hunter deadzone. I still haven't figured out a good formula for cleavey situations; Destro just Immos, Havocs, rips face, and chews everything up with Chaos Bolt spam fueled by Shadowburns. As Demo, Corr doesn't do enough to be worth multidotting, Doom rarely ticks, and I'm faced with the choice of using up my Fury (bad) or Shadowbolting (even worse).

Use Imp Swarm Glyph. While it is not best for sustained in a raid environment (op racials aside), its dominates 30 second burst fights like those in 5 mans.

I didn't think of this, but that might not be a bad idea. My Imps don't get a lot of serious time on anything when they're summoned 1-2 at a time on trash chains. I'll try this.

Also you should have gotten Immolation Aura at 62 which I do not think you mentioned in your Demo AoE rotation. After double stacking your HoG and jumping into Meta for the dmg buff, pop up your Immolation aura and use Carrion Wave (glyphed). After that you h ave two options, Spam ToC and hope to snipe killing blows for 200 fury refund, or tab dooms around. in 5 mans tabbing dooms probably wont be worth it as nothing last long enough. Remember Felstorm is not on your global and can be used at any point you are doing the above.

Yeah always Immo. That's like my only serious AoE option once I use up the CDs. The worst part is definitely once Immo is rolling and I don't know what to do — spending Fury on anything just makes Immo stop sooner, but not doing anything while Immo rolls feels really wrong too. It's awkward.

Again when I get a tank that gives me time to build up Fury between massive AoE fests, it works out great, since I don't worry about burning the Fury down. It's the smaller situations that feel no-win.

And finally, from somebody who has been Dungeon Finder tank lvling a DK the past week... Don't be that lock running around in 5 mans with his voidwalker out About 90% of locks I've been grouped with are running the blueberry

Ha ha... Most of the Locks you see probably just don't switch pets when their queue pops, since VW is really useful for leveling now (imo). Probably less if you have heavy Looms or funding and can just burst stuff down before it ever even looks at you (especially with Imp + Demon Training), but VW is more intuitive to newer players I think.

I do pull out VW as Destro when the tank is really bad so I have a Taunt on hand to save myself / healers, otherwise it's Imp (Destro) or of course FG as Demo (because losing Felstorm is the last thing I need ).

[Lovestar]

Hey guys. ^^

So I'm way higher-level now and Demo has gotten way better. It's still an incredibly frustrating PITA that's super-easy to horribly mess up, but I'm having so much fun. And when I do everything right, my damage is quite competitive even without Looms or funding.

The most helpful tips I got, plus things I've learned:

• Glyph of Imp Swarm is amazing. Best advice by far, so glad I tried this.
• Glyph of Carrion Swarm is also amazing. Having that extra bit of bursty DPS makes more of a difference than I expected.
• Immo Aura at 62 is a kiss/curse — it nerfs your ability to exploit Hellfire to remain in Meta / full Fury forever on dungeon trash.
• Basically, Immo Aura requires a total change of playstyle, to shift to using Meta as a "burst" tool rationed out appropriately and filling with Caster during 'lulls' where you recharge (like small packs).
• Caster form seems useless until Molten Core at 69 — then suddenly Demo makes way more sense. With MC Soul Fires, the spec became a lot more fluid, and I feel way less punished for leaving Meta.

This is definitely hugely more work than Destruction to do competitive DPS with. But, after all this practice, I'm doing much better. When I stay focused and manage all my resources and CDs correctly, I can do really good damage — sometimes even outdoing Tanks (?! no way!) and often competing admirably with Loom Twink DPS.

Of course, I'm also just having fun because this spec is awesome. But it's a nice feeling to put all this effort in and see that I'm not totally useless, too.

Overall, what strikes me about Demo is how fluid and imprecise it is — with Destro, I have a very rigid formula for success. I just connect the dots, everything works, I win.

With Demo, everything and every situation is a complex decision that needs to be made by just practicing and getting a feel for what goes where. I make so many gut-decisions and judgment calls non-stop while playing Demo, I don't feel like there's any real formula, only general guidelines and trying to understand the spec as best as possible.

It's really fresh and different, I haven't played anything quite like this in WoW before. It's kind of like the Fury Warrior of spellcasters. ^^

TY for the tips and encouragement.

[Deleted]

from the first post i thought.. he compares lvl 90 destro WL with lowlvl demo. But last Post says it al. Demo is quite rewarding if you stay tuned and stuborn enough to learn it. Its so much fun, jumping around, using carrion swarm, fireaura and lazorbeamz, together with your guard of furry and havoc ... and that overall awesome imparmy.

Some smaler tips:
never burn all the furry, except the fight will end soon. Only use Meta as long as procs are up, furry is full or MC has charges (it depends a bit on playstile if you use SF to recharge furry or to make more dmg of procs)
watch out for procs to instant meta swaps for strong dooms, keep a bit furry for that (specialy if there are more than one target)
to reggn furry a bit faster, always felstorm on CD and GoServ in larger trashpaks. that + well timed HoG and you will never run out of it. I lvl'd 1 Warlock that way and 2 with Affliction. very different, but always fun.

[Lovestar]

from the first post i thought.. he compares lvl 90 destro WL with lowlvl demo.

No, I was comparing leveling my old Warlock as Destro. All specs are pretty much "meh" at first but Destro goes absolutely insane in the 40s once you get Embers, Chaos Bolt, and Shadowburn. Aftermath / F&B on top of that at 54 is just... yeah. GG. Quick-dying nonstop trash is Destro's absolute domain of power.

never burn all the furry, except the fight will end soon. Only use Meta as long as procs are up, furry is full or MC has charges

Yes! Actually this is also very important I've found. It's so tempting to take that Fury bar to zero when it's filled up, because you're in this frenzy of "DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE RAWR" and don't want to stop, especially when you're so close to taking down that mob, etc.

But dropping to low Fury cripples your ability to use Meta smartly. You really need Meta available at any moment so you can react to changing situations — like you said, procs, stuff coming off CD, a need for burst (ie, something bad got pulled) or a sudden opportunity to snipe a bunch of low-health mobs and gorge on Fury.

(it depends a bit on playstile if you use SF to recharge furry or to make more dmg of procs)

Yes, SF is another nuance that I'm getting the hang of. It's not like Chaos Bolt, where you either want something to explode right now / are Ember capping, or don't / are not.

Generally, due to the insane pace of dungeons, I use all my MC procs in Caster mode to keep my Fury up and alternate between Meta Immo / Touch burns, and Caster SF spam, chaining through dying mobs to keep MC rolling (which BTW is so much trickier to pull off correctly vs. Shadowburning due to the cast time >.<). I need the Fury for Immo Aura and Touch-snipes more than I need ST burst.

But then you get huge meaty mobs / minibosses / bosses, and it suddenly flips around — ST burst, not AoE power, becomes the top priority and getting the Fury bar to zero while maximizing CDs / procs before the boss dies is much more important. So suddenly SF becomes the Meta burn tool, because spending time Caster SF'ing on a boss is a total waste (unless I mess up and go into a boss without full Fury).

watch out for procs to instant meta swaps for strong dooms, keep a bit furry for that (specialy if there are more than one target)

This is something I still need to work on, it's very difficult to make snap judgments about a bunch of different factors when it comes to Doom:

• Procs up? CDs up?
• Will this mob live for 1 tick? 2 ticks? Get this right or you really regret it, seeing things die 1 second before Doom ticks is just >.<
• Is this the right use of Fury? Would I be better off spending it on a longer Immo Aura? On Touch for burst or sniping?

Generally when I get too flustered I just skip Doom because it's so easy to make the wrong choice and waste a lot of Fury. But when I push harder and look for opportunities to toss Dooms around safely, the payoff is noticeable.

You really have to be on your toes with this — it varies radically by group, dungeon, and pull and it's hard to tell whether this is a "Doom group" or not until you get a few packs in and a sense of kill speeds.

Sometimes something as simple and unpredictable as another DPS player's big cooldown becoming ready can take "Ha ha! So many Dooms!" into "NO! Why are they dead already?!" XD