What is the snapshotting i keep hearing about as sub in WoD?

[Sturmgewehr86]

As far as i understand the thing to do as sub rogue on the beta is to snapshot your hemo and crimson tempest.My question since i dont play on the beta is what do you mean by snapshoting those dots? Apply them at trinket procs and refresh before they expire so that they continue to thick at their highest?In Diablo there is build that is called Snapshoting Ancients which basicly si stacking atack speed gear to summon them and then roll back to your regular gear since they get the current atack speed when summoned.

[zoomgpally]

Dots should update haste/crit/attackpower(spellpower for casters) and possibly mastery at every tick.

A few things can still be snapshotted, like balance power for druids.
Rogues may have something like that, but i'm not sure what it is.

[Feali]

It's not really snapshotting it's the mechanic of the 2 abilities. CT and Hemo bleed are dependent on the initial hit. So the harder the initial hit hits the bigger the bleed.

For example (with simplified numbers and math): Your initial CT hits for 100 the bleed does 240% of that damage over 12(?) seconds. In this case 240 (100*2,4) damage or 20 (240/12) every second. Now if you had an Agility buff which makes the initial CT hit for 500 the bleed would do 1200 (500*2,4) damage over 12(?) seconds or 100 (1200/12) every second.

This would mean you would preferably use an addon like AffDots that tells you when your initial CT or Hemo would hit so high that the new bleed would be better than the old bleed.

[Deleted]

Its not really snapshotting, as nalira already explained, its due to how Hemo and CT bleeds work (with the tick-damage being dependent on the initial hit)

To complete his post, this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT for rouges.

1) Hemo is not the primary CP generator for Sub rogues in any case, unless you absolutely cannot Backstab due to fight mechanics (in which case you cannot hold back a hemo anyway). While it is (currently) a slight dps increase to keep hemo bleed up, it is only a miniscule portion of the sub rogues dmg output. Chances are, you will lose damage if you spend time worrying "when is the ideal time to do the next hemo" and make a mistake because you don't pay attention to other things going on. Re-applying Hemo-bleed before it runs out, because an addon tells you that it will bleed stronger now, will waste energy far better spent on your next Backstab.

2) CT bleed is rolling damage in WoD. A new CT will not overwrite the current DoT as it does on live, but add its damage to it. Therefore, snapshotting does not apply here. You build 5 CP and fire CT, end of story.

[Deleted]

Rupture doesn't even snapshot

[Deleted]

Rupture doesn't even snapshot

And that's a bad thing because...?

[Oggiva]

2) CT bleed is rolling damage in WoD. A new CT will not overwrite the current DoT as it does on live, but add its damage to it. Therefore, snapshotting does not apply here. You build 5 CP and fire CT, end of story.

The same is true for hemo.

[fierydemise]

Its not really snapshotting, as nalira already explained, its due to how Hemo and CT bleeds work (with the tick-damage being dependent on the initial hit)

To complete his post, this is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT for rouges.

1) Hemo is not the primary CP generator for Sub rogues in any case, unless you absolutely cannot Backstab due to fight mechanics (in which case you cannot hold back a hemo anyway). While it is (currently) a slight dps increase to keep hemo bleed up, it is only a miniscule portion of the sub rogues dmg output. Chances are, you will lose damage if you spend time worrying "when is the ideal time to do the next hemo" and make a mistake because you don't pay attention to other things going on. Re-applying Hemo-bleed before it runs out, because an addon tells you that it will bleed stronger now, will waste energy far better spent on your next Backstab.

2) CT bleed is rolling damage in WoD. A new CT will not overwrite the current DoT as it does on live, but add its damage to it. Therefore, snapshotting does not apply here. You build 5 CP and fire CT, end of story.

It would be completely irrelevant except for one minor issue, sinister calling, sub's new MS mechanic. Since backstab and ambush do damage based on the size of your bleeds on the target which makes snapshotting very relevant. Consider for instance FW, say during FW you can get in 5 backstabs or 5 hemos, those backstabs allow you to benefit from FW now but hemoing allows you to add larger dot ticks to your other backstabs for the next 24 seconds. This mechanic becomes quite complex in a hurry and we're still trying to work out the exact theory but the key point is the MS interaction that Blizzard added makes the effective snapshotting behavior of hemo and CT potentially relevant.

[Deleted]

It would be completely irrelevant except for one minor issue, sinister calling, sub's new MS mechanic. Since backstab and ambush do damage based on the size of your bleeds on the target which makes snapshotting very relevant. Consider for instance FW, say during FW you can get in 5 backstabs or 5 hemos, those backstabs allow you to benefit from FW now but hemoing allows you to add larger dot ticks to your other backstabs for the next 24 seconds. This mechanic becomes quite complex in a hurry and we're still trying to work out the exact theory but the key point is the MS interaction that Blizzard added makes the effective snapshotting behavior of hemo and CT potentially relevant.

No, it's not "very relevant", not by a long shot.

1)The Sinister Calling mechanic applies ONLY to multistriking with Backstab/Ambush. If you don't MS, you don't get an additional tick. Since we can't really stack the MS stat (as we no longer get to reforge), this will not occur so frequently, that we should actually worry about it. Sure, one could. But the question is: Which rogue has the higher damage output...the one who tries to maximise his hemo and CT Ticks and getting high proccs of a procc that CAN occur, or one who actually tries to get his rotation as flawlessly as possible, including management of vanish, Preparation, ShD, possibly NEStealth, and all that in the middle of a bossfight, instead of wasting time thinking about ONE procc mechanics, which will make probalbly no more than 2-2.4% of our total dmg output?

2) The Snapshotting only applies to Hemo and CT anyway. WE DO NOT CT IN A SINGLE TARGET FIGHT. We don't even do it against 2 targets, and possibly not even against 3. And even if we did, the SC MS mechanic ONLY APPLIES TO THE TARGET WE ARE HITTING ANYWAY. In any fight situation where my goal is to bomb the cr*p out of a large mobpack, the last thing I am worried about, is a minor procc mechanic on 1 target.

3) Rupture, the most powerful Bleed in our kit, where the most damage from this mechanic will come from, is not snapshotting. Since we cannot control when MS proccs will occur, we cannot force it during a time when the dynamic rupture tick would be incredibly high. (And yes, I am aware that POTENTIALLY we could, with a proccing trinket and an activateable once which increases MS, but that again brings us back to "Potential maximising 1 mechanic" vs. "actually doing the basic rotation")

4) If Hemo damage is indeed rolling damage as well, then this discussion becomes even more pointless than it already is.

[Sturmgewehr86]

(2) The Snapshotting only applies to Hemo and CT anyway. WE DO NOT CT IN A SINGLE TARGET FIGHT. We don't even do it against 2 targets, and possibly not even against 3. And even if we did, the SC MS mechanic ONLY APPLIES TO THE TARGET WE ARE HITTING ANYWAY. In any fight situation where my goal is to bomb the cr*p out of a large mobpack, the last thing I am worried about, is a minor procc mechanic on 1 target.

Are u sure about that?I think I have seen someone type that he can't squeeze in Eviscerates because he was maintaining a lot of bleeds , i assumed crimson tempest is in the single target rotaton.

[Feris]

Since we can't really stack the MS stat (as we no longer get to reforge), this will not occur so frequently, that we should actually worry about it.

I'm not sure if I agree with this. On beta (exact values subject to change obviously) with 0 MS on the premade gear but full MS enchants/food/flask I'm sitting at 20.59% MS as a Sub Rogue. And when both MS weapon echants proc that goes up to ~35%. Thanks to our attunement to MS it takes (assuming my napkin math is right) 44 points of MS to get 1%. The quest greens you get on a premade have anywhere to 39-70 of each secondary stat on it. With good luck on itimization we might be able to get pretty high MS% during the first tier of raiding.

Which rogue has the higher damage output...the one who tries to maximise his hemo and CT Ticks and getting high proccs of a procc that CAN occur, or one who actually tries to get his rotation as flawlessly as possible, including management of vanish, Preparation, ShD, possibly NEStealth, and all that in the middle of a bossfight

These are not mutually exclusive.

2) The Snapshotting only applies to Hemo and CT anyway. WE DO NOT CT IN A SINGLE TARGET FIGHT.

On live, yes. Right now I believe(I could be wrong) that CT is mathing out to be worth it on Single target in beta. And according to these series of tweets Fieryknowsbest/status/484505401585844224 (twitter URL since I can't post links) it's something they're currently okay with.

3) Rupture, the most powerful Bleed in our kit, where the most damage from this mechanic will come from, is not snapshotting. Since we cannot control when MS proccs will occur, we cannot force it during a time when the dynamic rupture tick would be incredibly high. (And yes, I am aware that POTENTIALLY we could, with a proccing trinket and an activateable once which increases MS, but that again brings us back to "Potential maximising 1 mechanic" vs. "actually doing the basic rotation")

I don't see how Rupture not snapshotting means Hemo/CT snapshotting isn't relevant. And again, those are not mutally exclusive.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure if I agree with this. On beta (exact values subject to change obviously) with 0 MS on the premade gear but full MS enchants/food/flask I'm sitting at 20.59% MS as a Sub Rogue. And when both MS weapon echants proc that goes up to ~35%. Thanks to our attunement to MS it takes (assuming my napkin math is right) 44 points of MS to get 1%. The quest greens you get on a premade have anywhere to 39-70 of each secondary stat on it. With good luck on itimization we might be able to get pretty high MS% during the first tier of raiding.

So 20%, lets say 23% overall given the weapon enchants.
So every fifth BS/Amb has a chance to procc MS. Timing this with High bleeds will be hell-

These are not mutually exclusive.

Ofc they are not. I also can think about my girlfriend while doing a heroic raid encounter, or talk to my buddies via skype. The question is, will I then still do the same dps?
Believe it or not, the human brain has a limited processing capacity. The more stuff you have going on and worrying about, the more will go wrong. As much as good players like to think of themselves as supercomputers, they are not. They are Still. Only. Human.

On live, yes. Right now I believe(I could be wrong) that CT is mathing out to be worth it on Single target in beta. And according to these series of tweets Fieryknowsbest/status/484505401585844224 (twitter URL since I can't post links) it's something they're currently okay with.

Are u sure about that?I think I have seen someone type that he can't squeeze in Eviscerates because he was maintaining a lot of bleeds , i assumed crimson tempest is in the single target rotaton.

Even if it is, and even if some designers are currently okay with it, expect it to be changed, and quickly. Making CT a more effective finisher than eviscerate is definitely not the intention of the design team, I am sorry. It would completely take eviscerate out of the picture, and transform Sub rogues into a wierd kind of lawnmover-specc.

I don't see how Rupture not snapshotting means Hemo/CT snapshotting isn't relevant. And again, those are not mutally exclusive.

Because Rupture >>>>>>> Hemo and CT. So the difference in dmg will likely be unnoticeable. The question is not "Is it relevant", because ofc it is...the question is "Is it relevant ENOUGH to actually worry about?"
If a certain mechanic increases my dps by a large enough margin, I consider it. If it MIGHT increase my damage by 1-2%, but still requires alot of attention, I don't worry about it, and concentrate on not dying in the fire.

And again, no, they are not exclusive, the question is, can you pull it off while not losing dmg due to not paying attention to other things. Sub already has the most complicated rogue rotation (in my opinion at least, you might disagree), and given that we are not talking fighting a puppet, but a raid boss, with movement, voidzones, burst phases, etc. etc.,..., involved, I question the ability of the majority of even the decent rogue, to pay extra attention to a mechanic, that MIGHT squeeze 1 or 2% additional damage, IF done perfectly.

[Kael]

So 20%, lets say 23% overall given the weapon enchants.
So every fifth BS/Amb has a chance to procc MS. Timing this with High bleeds will be hell-

...

And again, no, they are not exclusive, the question is, can you pull it off while not losing dmg due to not paying attention to other things. Sub already has the most complicated rogue rotation (in my opinion at least, you might disagree), and given that we are not talking fighting a puppet, but a raid boss, with movement, voidzones, burst phases, etc. etc.,..., involved, I question the ability of the majority of even the decent rogue, to pay extra attention to a mechanic, that MIGHT squeeze 1 or 2% additional damage, IF done perfectly.

There's no timing, you simply maintain the most powerful dots that you can by updating when power is high, before power becomes low, and only if it wears off or can be applied at high power again (this is the nature of snapshotting). Not sure about the status on rolling hemo/CT, I should really catch up on that.

That's great, but we discuss both general use and the highest possible play. Please don't try to strangle discussion because you don't want to follow a best-practice set of playstyle. You can certainly question how much it will impact, so that each player is capable of making their own decision, but dismissal of it is wasteful.

[Sesshou]

So 20%, lets say 23% overall given the weapon enchants.
So every fifth BS/Amb has a chance to procc MS. Timing this with High bleeds will be hell-

Isn't MS actually two independent chances to proc a MS at whatever % your MS is at per attack? Could have sworn they said something like that. If that is right, then 20% is over one in three, and by the time we get 30% MS it will be over half the time we get at least 1 MS.

[shadowboy]

1) Hemo is not the primary CP generator for Sub rogues in any case, unless you absolutely cannot Backstab due to fight mechanics (in which case you cannot hold back a hemo anyway). While it is (currently) a slight dps increase to keep hemo bleed up, it is only a miniscule portion of the sub rogues dmg output. Chances are, you will lose damage if you spend time worrying "when is the ideal time to do the next hemo" and make a mistake because you don't pay attention to other things going on. Re-applying Hemo-bleed before it runs out, because an addon tells you that it will bleed stronger now, will waste energy far better spent on your next Backstab.

You might need a considerable amount of multistrike for backstab to be better than hemo. Hemo might be the primary combo point generator early in the expansion. Hemo is FAR more energy/efficient than backstab in terms of both direct damage and combo point cost. It's only the MS effect of backstab that will pull it ahead.

2) CT bleed is rolling damage in WoD. A new CT will not overwrite the current DoT as it does on live, but add its damage to it. Therefore, snapshotting does not apply here. You build 5 CP and fire CT, end of story.

Not True. Let's say you have a CT that hit for 100, so you have a bleed dealing 40 damage per 2 sec for 12 sec. 7 sec in you get an agi proc CT for 200. This adds the 480 damage to the remaining 120, for a total amount of 600, or 100 damage per tick. 7 seconds later you get a non-proc CT for 100 damage again. At this point you are now adding 240 damage to the remaining bleed of 300, for a total bleed amount of 540, or 90 damage per tick. Guess what, you just LOST bleed damage and those backstab MS extra ticks are going to hit for less for the next 5 seconds than if you chose to eviscerate instead. This is why affdot addons are necessary. This is, of course, ignoring crits which you can't "game" like you can a proc, so there's nothing to say a crit or noncrit may screw it up. It's unnecessary complexity.

[Deleted]

I am still in opinion that Blade twisting from MS should be moved from BS/ambus to Evis, and then give BS/ambush old Lethality 30% bonus crit damage. In this way CT will become filler( to keep debuff) in single target rotation..... other solution is to nerf CT damage.

[CasualNoob]

you just LOST bleed damage and those backstab MS extra ticks

No. You don't lose any damage. Let's say there are 2 ticks remaining for 300 damage. In total 600 damage. You refresh dot to 6 ticks, 100 damage per tick. You have lesser tick damage, but higher time remainig - thus higher number of possible ms procs during that time. Total damage would be the same, you have 3 times lesser damage from one proc, but 3 times higher number of procs (in average).

[Feris]

Timing this with High bleeds will be hell-

You don't need to time anything, you just keep heavy DoTs up 24/7

Ofc they are not. I also can think about my girlfriend while doing a heroic raid encounter, or talk to my buddies via skype. The question is, will I then still do the same dps?
Believe it or not, the human brain has a limited processing capacity. The more stuff you have going on and worrying about, the more will go wrong. As much as good players like to think of themselves as supercomputers, they are not. They are Still. Only. Human.

Yes, but it'll be keep DoTs up and clip then when an addon tells you to (ala AffDots) which isn't hard. Part of the reason why Blizzard removed all other snapshots.

Even if it is, and even if some designers are currently okay with it, expect it to be changed, and quickly. Making CT a more effective finisher than eviscerate is definitely not the intention of the design team, I am sorry. It would completely take eviscerate out of the picture, and transform Sub rogues into a wierd kind of lawnmover-specc.

It may not necessarily be better in every situation. I believe currently it's better under age pros and FW, but I could be wrong. Either way they're okay with it being relevant in Single Target right now, no reason to ignore it because you think it won't last.

Because Rupture >>>>>>> Hemo and CT. So the difference in dmg will likely be unnoticeable. The question is not "Is it relevant", because ofc it is...the question is "Is it relevant ENOUGH to actually worry about?"
If a certain mechanic increases my dps by a large enough margin, I consider it. If it MIGHT increase my damage by 1-2%, but still requires alot of attention, I don't worry about it, and concentrate on not dying in the fire.

And again, no, they are not exclusive, the question is, can you pull it off while not losing dmg due to not paying attention to other things. Sub already has the most complicated rogue rotation (in my opinion at least, you might disagree), and given that we are not talking fighting a puppet, but a raid boss, with movement, voidzones, burst phases, etc. etc.,..., involved, I question the ability of the majority of even the decent rogue, to pay extra attention to a mechanic, that MIGHT squeeze 1 or 2% additional damage, IF done perfectly.

This entire thing is just opinions/person stuff. You may not think 1-2% is worth trying to play perfectly, and you may not be able to do it perfectly while not fucking up mechanics. But I like to min/max and will push myself to make sure that I perform 100% optimally while not fucking up mechanics.

Isn't MS actually two independent chances to proc a MS at whatever % your MS is at per attack? Could have sworn they said something like that. If that is right, then 20% is over one in three, and by the time we get 30% MS it will be over half the time we get at least 1 MS.

"Grants two 20.20% chances to deliever extra attacks or heals for 30.00% of normal value on each target." That's the tooltip on Beta right now.

[Kael]

No. You don't lose any damage. Let's say there are 2 ticks remaining for 300 damage. In total 600 damage. You refresh dot to 6 ticks, 100 damage per tick. You have lesser tick damage, but higher time remainig - thus higher number of possible ms procs during that time. Total damage would be the same, you have 3 times lesser damage from one proc, but 3 times higher number of procs (in average).

You do lose damage, but to word it better, the damage lost is only that from the MS ticks. By changing the value of the bleed (yes, it lasts longer), the MS ticks that occur in the "new" bleed that would otherwise have occurred in the "old" bleed do damage based on the new bleed damage. This is why snapshotting is an issue for sub on beta (and made worse by being a hit snapshot rather than a stat snapshot, because crits, as shadowboy points out above).

The error that you're coming up with is bleed vs. no bleed -- the reality is that you'll apply CT again soon -- either pool anticipation to renew it the moment it does or is going to drop, or build CP after casting your evis for whatever reason you chose to do that immediately, and cast it 1-2 seconds after CT drops. So long as the first bleed was immense, the second option is still a damage gain. Though again, you should never find yourself unable to renew it because you chose to wait a moment.

[Sesshou]

"Grants two 20.20% chances to deliever extra attacks or heals for 30.00% of normal value on each target." That's the tooltip on Beta right now.

Yeah that says two separate chances and would mean Sorz was underselling how often you would have a MS go off rather significantly. 20% MS means a 36% chance that at least one multi strike goes off. I can easily see 30% MS being possible by the end of the second tier depending on itemization and at that point you will get one more often than you won't.