Nerf Looking for Raid ilvl

[Back2Basics]

Quite possibly the worst implementation of ilvl/gs was the delivery of LFR gear at a tier beyond the last raids normal ilvl. At what point do we actually believe that a player whom has killed a boss on LFR SoO deserves better gear than a player whom has killed any boss in ToT on normal? Surely we don't feel more accomplished in doing so. Why should be rewarded for such a simple and mind-numbing task? Five AFK players you say? Five players mashing their keyboard with their face? Maybe ten players in the entire raid group that know how to press some buttons in proper sequence... maybe. Yet, we offer typically five to eight of those players better gear than the last tier for performing like a drooling, mindless child. Why?

Now you might think that this is an anti-LFR/anti-drop post. Quite the opposite. Give LFR players gear, let the casuals have their fun, provide them a reward compensatory of their level of skill. But think about this...

ToT LFR: 502 ilvl SoO LFR: 528 ilvl
ToT N: 522 ilvl SoO N: 553 ilvl
ToT H: 535 ilvl SoO H: 566 ilvl

We required such a hefty jump in item level because Blizzard- and a great deal of "casual" player base- have determined that we need the current LFR to be somewhere between the normal and heroic level gear of the previous tier. For what purpose? Are we assuming most people clearing normal need to gain upgrades through the LFR system in order to beat a normal boss in the next tier? Instead, think of how much more dramatically the ilvl's could have been consolidated had we approached the situation from a much more clear and rational approach.

H Dung: 463 --> MSV LFR: 465 --> MSV N: 470 --> MSV H: 475 --> HoF LFR: 468 --> HoF N: 473 --> HoF H: 478

I'm not saying these are irrefutable numbers... but the concept is there. Go back to move forward. Keep the older tiers more viable without making them mandatory. Give the players a reason to do normal and heroic in any tier without completely nullifying any value of previous tiers. LFR of each consecutive tier should make the normal mode of the previous tier easier without voiding the experience of any and all value.

[Deja Thoris]

The flaw in the assumption is that you think old tiers should be a viable route. They aren't and everybody (but you) recognises this. Noone wants to run through old stuff so it kind of invalidates your whole proposal.

Now you might think that this is an anti-LFR/anti-drop post. Quite the opposite.

Yet, we offer typically five to eight of those players better gear than the last tier for performing like a drooling, mindless child.

Yup, that comes across as objective.

[Deleted]

yeah pls so we have more bullshit items that we need to be viable or OP ( hi feral hi warlock)

i guess you didnt play TBC ... it wasnt fun to get back to the old instances anymore

[Deleted]

AFAIK this will all change in WoD when LFR will be more of a "raid on rails" experience with LFR loot and tier sets being less powerful than even heroic dungeon loot and the more competitive gear will be coming from normal, heroic and mythic.

[Deleted]

Consider that:

- almost nobody wants to come back to farming old N raids on a regular basis to gear up new recruits and alts
- Blizzard *wants* raiders to participate in LFR, because, quite frankly, these people usually carry LFR groups, without them LFR becomes an intolerable wipefest and needs to be nerfed repeatedly

[Impoxh]

With how powerful certain items currently are (Trinkets) I really wouldn't like this because some classes would need to go back to old tiers to get their BiS Trinkets... like ferals have to atm.

LFR ilvl should just be lower in general normal mode of the last tier at max.

[Alroxas]

ToT LFR: 502 ilvl SoO LFR: 528 ilvl
ToT N: 522 ilvl SoO N: 553 ilvl
ToT H: 535 ilvl SoO H: 566 ilvl

One thing that concerns me here is that you didn't take into account thunderforged/warforged gear in this table. That adjustment shifts things a bit and when you then added the VP upgrades (2 levels for ToT and 4 for SoO) it gets really crazy.

A SoO LFR 528 -> 4/4 VP upgraded = ilv 544 is equal to a Flex 1/4 piece.
A SoO N WF 559 -> 4/4 VP upgraded = ilv 575 which is better than Heroic 2/4 or Heroic WF 0/4

Granted didn't I heard that Asian servers have even more upgrades/ilv tiers?

[fixx]

Keep the older tiers more viable without making them mandatory. Give the players a reason to do normal and heroic in any tier without completely nullifying any value of previous tiers. LFR of each consecutive tier should make the normal mode of the previous tier easier without voiding the experience of any and all value.

Why should old obsolete content be mandatory for most casual players? It's just as stupid as saying people who use car only to drive back and forth to the corner store has to buy some old model from 50's without any modern conveniences such as power steering or air conditioning or even seatbelts.

Got an answer that makes sense to people with a working brain?

[Back2Basics]

With how powerful certain items currently are (Trinkets) I really wouldn't like this because some classes would need to go back to old tiers to get their BiS Trinkets... like ferals have to atm.

LFR ilvl should just be lower in general normal mode of the last tier at max.

This is the only viable argument that I have seen. The obscene procs that Blizzard has placed on trinkets has placed certain classes into a dilemma where they require that trinket's proc to maximize dps. However, during normal progression, you would obtain the trinket sooner or later through typical means. I am not stating that LFR should be removed and quite a few heroic level raiders will do an LFR just to get a trinket with that proc type. Those trinkets would still be accesible through LFR through this means.

The flaw in the assumption is that you think old tiers should be a viable route. They aren't and everybody (but you) recognises this. Noone wants to run through old stuff so it kind of invalidates your whole proposal.

This, essentially, is the most juvenile post. At no point did I argue that it is not currently accepted. Of course it is. Why? Because higher level gear exists in the next tier's LFR than exist in the previous tier's normal mode. But why should it be a higher ilvl? Those individuals don't put half the effort into obtaining that gear as the guilds that suffered to clear it during its current implementation. Should they be rewarded? Sure. With better gear than the normal raiders of the last tier? No, without question. And the fact that no one wants to run old stuff... laughable. Everyone runs old stuff constantly whether for transmog gear, mounts or the experience.

yeah pls so we have more bullshit items that we need to be viable or OP ( hi feral hi warlock)

i guess you didnt play TBC ... it wasnt fun to get back to the old instances anymore

Again, my point did not revolve around trinkets and gear procs. But these could essentially be "on use" or at least brought down to a level where the next tier's procs are not overpowered by the previous tier's. That seems to makes the game more difficult for specific classes which was probably not Blizzard's intent.

I did in fact raid on multiple toons through TBC. I was forced to do attunements multiple times; I was forced to be in separately tiered guilds to progress on each toon. But with Blizzard's refusal to return to attunement and the idea that LFR will never be discontinued, the "elitism" that was suffered by those unable to progress without being involved in a progression guild is resolved to a certain extent. In the method listed above, you could (at any point) join LFR to gear, go back one raid tier to said normal mode, and then join a guild on the current tier's normal progression (should you wish to exit the LFR progression system and join the guild progression system). This would, in effect, increase the life of the game and the involvement in previous tiers.

Consider that:

- almost nobody wants to come back to farming old N raids on a regular basis to gear up new recruits and alts
- Blizzard *wants* raiders to participate in LFR, because, quite frankly, these people usually carry LFR groups, without them LFR becomes an intolerable wipefest and needs to be nerfed repeatedly

Again, you don't go back to gear up alts necessarily as others with alts are currently progressing with you. Guilds would not need to make a concerted effort to level alts any more than they would now. Carrying would still be possible in normal mode as it is now, the previous tier's normal gear would be just a capable of clearing the current tier's normal as it is today. I'm not sure where your toon's ilvl was when you entered SoO N, but I did it on two separate toons at a 520ish ilvl and fared decently simply by understanding the fights.

I am not arguing that any point above is invalid. But beyond arguing procs from trinkets or sets, you each only argued that it was unrealistic simply because people don't want to. That seems... trivial? Of course no one wants to raid "older" current tier's because we have made LFR gear so unrealistically powerful for the effort necessary to achieve it.

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Why should old obsolete content be mandatory for most casual players? It's just as stupid as saying people who use car only to drive back and forth to the corner store has to buy some old model from 50's without any modern conveniences such as power steering or air conditioning or even seatbelts.

Got an answer that makes sense to people with a working brain?

Again, this system would work the same way as it currently does. You would be able to join the next tier's LFR with the old tier's LFR ilvl. You can always continue to languish in LFR if you see fit. But by not having to understand any mechanics, I would argue that your ilvl should not be comparable to those who cleared the previous tier's ilvl.

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One thing that concerns me here is that you didn't take into account thunderforged/warforged gear in this table. That adjustment shifts things a bit and when you then added the VP upgrades (2 levels for ToT and 4 for SoO) it gets really crazy.

A SoO LFR 528 -> 4/4 VP upgraded = ilv 544 is equal to a Flex 1/4 piece.
A SoO N WF 559 -> 4/4 VP upgraded = ilv 575 which is better than Heroic 2/4 or Heroic WF 0/4

Granted didn't I heard that Asian servers have even more upgrades/ilv tiers?

Upgrades? Do those even belong in the game? Do you deserve an ilvl bump because you have done a few heroic scenarios? There would be no need for upgrades in a new system... just as that upgrade system will become irrelevant with the WoD release. It is a pretty simple solution to over-gear the player base when they are unable to clear the current content. Since it is (or was) released only on off-tier patches, it was intended to be a catch-up mechanic that never really should have existed.

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Why should old obsolete content be mandatory for most casual players? It's just as stupid as saying people who use car only to drive back and forth to the corner store has to buy some old model from 50's without any modern conveniences such as power steering or air conditioning or even seatbelts.

Got an answer that makes sense to people with a working brain?

In absolutely no way is this the same to any extent. And I'm assuming the "working brain" comment can be rationalized through your incredible aptitude for grammar.

[crakerjack]

The flaw in the assumption is that you think old tiers should be a viable route. They aren't and everybody (but you) recognises this. Noone wants to run through old stuff so it kind of invalidates your whole proposal.




Yup, that comes across as objective.

Old tiers shouldn't be viable??? Why do you think so many people are freezing their accounts? It's because there's no content. People can skip almost completely to the end by farming the most recent raids on LFR. IMO TBC did PVE perfectly. The only place that dropped equivalent gear to a raid was MGT and that was just one dungeon. Even when top guilds were working their way through SW, there were still guilds progressing through raids 2 tiers behind. IMO the best thing about raiding is character progression... Seeing that piece of loot that you so desperately want and getting it is an amazing feeling. How often do you see people pugging old tier raids? Not as much as you did in TBC, that's because people already have better loot and why would they want to waste the time forming a group for something that'll drop worse gear than LFR?

Making tier raids obsolete is what's making WoW PvE worse and worse. These massive gaps between expansions would be overlooked if people had to work their way up through each tier until they finally reach the last tier. I cleared all the way through t4 to t5 to t6 on multiple toons. I loved every bit of it. It was fun the first time through and it was even more fun the last time through.

This is why I can't return to the game. Too many people whine and QQ about how they don't have enough time to raid, yet they have this demand for better gear. LFR shouldn't even drop gear, it should drop badges that can be spent on piece of loot that won't complete a full set. You shouldn't be able to skip any raid tier by doing anything other than raiding. Everyone has the ability to raid and put in the effort, they just choose not to because they don't want to make any sacrifices whether it be social or personal hobbies. I had to tell a few friends back in TBC that I couldn't go out and party because I committed myself to a raid.

I'll agree that majority of the playerbase will occur with you, I won't deny that. This is also one of the main reasons why I quit because of this new entitled group that expects blizzard to serve them content on a silver platter. RPG's don't work when you can simply do something easy and skip all the way to the end... it's like having someone dump out 4/5 of your sundae leaving you with only a couple bites left. You're not going to enjoy that sundae for long because there isn't much left. Why not relax and enjoy the whole thing even if you had the same sundae last month? You know the whole thing will taste great because you've had it before, why scoop out almost all of it just to have the last couple bites?

[gunner007]

I don't see the problem. If you're comparing people getting new LFR 528 gear against people who "full cleared" normals. Those people are in full 522 to begin with, so it's a small 6 ilvl difference, and I'm sure no one is getting full LFR gear in the first month or two, especially with the delay in releases between them.

The system also guarantees that you aren't going back or holding onto that one blue piece of gear you got because it was better itemized than that epic from TBC. Not sure where the gripe is. Those LFR people will claw and bite their way and suffer through LFR to get 6 ilvls better than you and never get any further. Those people clearing normals should be able to step in the first week and grab normal gear easily.

The system works fine as it is. If people needed a challenge, there's other difficulties to step up to. LFR is already a shitfest, making people go back and do normals (which requires some though and direction) isn't going to work with 25 random people no matter how far they outgear it.

Old tiers were kept viable due to the legendary quest line.

You do realize you're basically advocating the opposite of like 80% of sub cancellations are the LFR crowd who complain "no content".

[Back2Basics]

Old tiers shouldn't be viable??? Why do you think so many people are freezing their accounts? It's because there's no content. People can skip almost completely to the end by farming the most recent raids on LFR. IMO TBC did PVE perfectly. The only place that dropped equivalent gear to a raid was MGT and that was just one dungeon. Even when top guilds were working their way through SW, there were still guilds progressing through raids 2 tiers behind. IMO the best thing about raiding is character progression... Seeing that piece of loot that you so desperately want and getting it is an amazing feeling. How often do you see people pugging old tier raids? Not as much as you did in TBC, that's because people already have better loot and why would they want to waste the time forming a group for something that'll drop worse gear than LFR?

Making tier raids obsolete is what's making WoW PvE worse and worse. These massive gaps between expansions would be overlooked if people had to work their way up through each tier until they finally reach the last tier. I cleared all the way through t4 to t5 to t6 on multiple toons. I loved every bit of it. It was fun the first time through and it was even more fun the last time through.

This is why I can't return to the game. Too many people whine and QQ about how they don't have enough time to raid, yet they have this demand for better gear. LFR shouldn't even drop gear, it should drop badges that can be spent on piece of loot that won't complete a full set. You shouldn't be able to skip any raid tier by doing anything other than raiding. Everyone has the ability to raid and put in the effort, they just choose not to because they don't want to make any sacrifices whether it be social or personal hobbies. I had to tell a few friends back in TBC that I couldn't go out and party because I committed myself to a raid.

I'll agree that majority of the playerbase will occur with you, I won't deny that. This is also one of the main reasons why I quit because of this new entitled group that expects blizzard to serve them content on a silver platter. RPG's don't work when you can simply do something easy and skip all the way to the end... it's like having someone dump out 4/5 of your sundae leaving you with only a couple bites left. You're not going to enjoy that sundae for long because there isn't much left. Why not relax and enjoy the whole thing even if you had the same sundae last month? You know the whole thing will taste great because you've had it before, why scoop out almost all of it just to have the last couple bites?

Bumped so hard. This is one of the best reads I've had on this site. There are people who believe that an RPG should revolve around capability and the desire to learn how to perform rather than having gear dropped in your lap. WoW will eventually lose its luster if the devs aren't willing to reconcile how "easy" the game is for casuals. You have not beaten the tier when you've beaten its LFR. By sending people back to normal to obtain better gear to progress in the game's content, you are essentially extending the life of the game. Where people are currently complaining about the game's release date and "promises" being cut, player's of a newer system would be far more focused on learning and continuing their progression because they aren't handed nearly the best gear in the game.

[RoKPaNda]

Bumped so hard. This is one of the best reads I've had on this site. There are people who believe that an RPG should revolve around capability and the desire to learn how to perform rather than having gear dropped in your lap. WoW will eventually lose its luster if the devs aren't willing to reconcile how "easy" the game is for casuals. You have not beaten the tier when you've beaten its LFR. By sending people back to normal to obtain better gear to progress in the game's content, you are essentially extending the life of the game. Where people are currently complaining about the game's release date and "promises" being cut, player's of a newer system would be far more focused on learning and continuing their progression because they aren't handed nearly the best gear in the game.

But you're only extending the life of the game for one small group of players, while making it less enjoyable for every other person.

[Back2Basics]

...it's a small 6 ilvl difference...

This ilvl difference, in fact, is quite large compared to previous expansions because of their need to fit in LFR above the former tier's normal... already a poor concept.
LFR is already easy enough that at least 10 of the 25 players could go AFK, why would it reward better gear than the deserved upgrades someone received for putting very little effort into learning a normal boss' mechanics and joining an oqueue group.

The system works fine as it is. If people needed a challenge, there's other difficulties to step up to. LFR is already a shitfest, making people go back and do normals (which requires some though and direction) isn't going to work with 25 random people no matter how far they outgear it.

Therein lies your problem. You think that people don't assume they have "beaten" the game when they finish LFR. Should they not feel that there is some challenge to get it? Does jumping back one raid tier to get an upgrade in order to get back into the current tier's normal seem incredibly difficult? Why should we not have higher expectations of someone who wants to get into normal raiding than having full LFR gear. Anymore, you can upgrade your gear and have a ~550 ilvl without even setting foot in normal. Is that realistic? You seem to argue that it is...

Old tiers were kept viable due to the legendary quest line.

That is quite possibly the worst reason to keep old tiers relevant. You are forcing players who actually care about playing the game to suffer through AFKs, button mashers, and player's who seem as if they haven't ever touched that class in their life (like WoW is a novel concept they are just beginning to understand at 90).

You do realize you're basically advocating the opposite of like 80% of sub cancellations are the LFR crowd who complain "no content".

Your logic is why 80% of the game's decent players have left it behind. They do not want to be forced to raid with people who may or may not understand what is happening. They expect people in their group to have at least a moderate level of understanding of the game and play to that standard. We aren't all incredible players, but you are arguing that we should promote zero effort for great reward. Why would anyone want to play in that environment?

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But you're only extending the life of the game for one small group of players, while making it less enjoyable for every other person.

Not at all. I am petitioning for LFR players to actually experience a normal raid. You can still jump to the next tier's LFR to upgrade... but until then, you would be expected to go back and actually attempt to learn the mechanics of the game, how to use your spell book, and maybe work on your tactics and approach. I am not asking people to suffer through something for an eternity. I am asking that if they join the current tier's normal that they understand what a boss does and that maybe watching a video, learning a strategy, or at least attempting to perform for their counterparts in the group. LFR does not provide for this novel concept. Learning, growing, and achieving. Oh... that's why so many people have an issue with it. You have to learn and understand...

[Chuckadoodle]

You seem to be aiming a high bit of analysis at a moot point right now. Simply put Blizzard has already identified the future of LFR via WoD.... http://wow.joystiq.com/2014/05/01/lf...aenor-and-you/

Hindsight is a powerful tool but in the end it is still just hindsight.

[Kraineth]

The ilvl jumps are not solely becaue of LFR, they are for people to have a noticeable difference in how much power they gain between tiers/difficulties.

Putting in ilvl steps of only 3 is just silly. The difference between an LFR geared character and a Heroic geared character would be tiny. You would barely be able to tell the difference unless you were using damage meters/combat logging, which a majority of players do not use.

[Enosh]

At what point do we actually believe that a player whom has killed a boss on LFR SoO deserves better gear than a player whom has killed any boss in ToT on normal? Surely we don't feel more accomplished in doing so.

when we stop caring how Jonny LFRraider got his gear and how our epeen will be smaller because Jonny got a few epics and just have fun doing our own thing

Not at all. I am petitioning for LFR players to actually experience a normal raid.

why?
why the fuck would I want a bunch of people who have no desire to be in normals outside of gear to be in normals?
I'd rather take the people who actually want to see and do normals and leave plenty of loot and content for the lfr people who don't want to experience this, I gain nothing from forcing people who don't want to do normals into doing normals apart from more wipes and a more frustrating gaming experience for me

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

Why should old obsolete content be mandatory for most casual players? It's just as stupid as saying people who use car only to drive back and forth to the corner store has to buy some old model from 50's without any modern conveniences such as power steering or air conditioning or even seatbelts.

Got an answer that makes sense to people with a working brain?

People don't buy the game just to be funneled into playing "last tier's content", just because they're not hardcore. Why would ANYONE want to play a game that feels like it was designed just for 5% of the players and the other 95% can just go fuck off, no one cares.

Everyone should have access to the new stuff regardless of whether playstyle is casual, ultra-hardcore, or anything between. Period.

I don't see why people don't understand this, but, maybe, they're stuck at an emotional age of 14 or something.

[Deja Thoris]

Bumped so hard. This is one of the best reads I've had on this site.

Bumped so hard! One person agreed with me so I'll make like his post is fucking amazing. Every other person in the thread I shall call names!

Old tiers aren't viable because y'know, they had the nuts farmed off them when they were current by casuals and hardcore rockstars alike.

People are quitting in droves because theres no NEW content, not because theres no content.

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

People are quitting in droves because theres no NEW content, not because theres no content.

Indeed, there is a METRIC FUCK TON of content (which is not NEW).