WoW, unsustainable in its current form!

[xanzul]

People left because it's been 1 year without new content, not because they can't stare like idiots at some pixels on some random dude, pixels they will never ever be able to get. If they would have kept the great "stare like an idiot at the pixels" model (old "badass" raiding style) instead of "get the pixels, even if they are not so shiny" model (LFR, Flex etc) this game would have been in a coma for years by now.

People with less developed brains already forgot the "heroics are hard" experiment in Cata. Blizzard apparently listened to some TBC lunatics, but in the end it was such a failure that they've made the MoP heroics absolutely ridiculous. There are at least 9 "noobs" for every "elite" motherfucker out there. This applies to virtually everything that's open for general population. Try to sustain something by cutting the "noobs" share

Those 800k subscribers left during Q2 long before Siege was even remotely considered to be old content. Maybe just maybe there is more than just one single reason why people quit this game.

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And people seriously think this makes up for what WoW once was... First take away everything that makes players stand out then give a mount back and two expansions later an armour set... This is not even close to what they have to do.
Someone slaying the biggest baddest dragon of the whole world should get showered in gold and have the most powerful gear. Not have a minor upgrade and some cosmetic stuff.


Yes there are but they are all copies of content you have already done. I've been saying that since WotLK but apparently it doesn't matter that, the dungeon you once ran through 50 times, you now run through the same dungeon 150 times.

Gear from heroic raids isn't more powerful? What?

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20 years is a long time, mate.

And yet EQ1 and other mmos have been around 15 years or longer and that was without the benefit of having 12 million subscribers.

[LazarusLong]

This is sadly the case. While there are still lots of hardcore players out there, it seems to me like we have lost of a lot of the "middle class" in WoW. There are still a ton of slackers and morons who just run LFR, don't gem, don't really try at all and get showered with gear.

It's simply a sad state of affairs when you cater to the lowest common denominator. IMO, wrath was the beginning of the end because it introduced easy heroics, easy raids, and very late in the expac LFD. Until Blizz realizes these things hurt the game and take them out, we will be in trouble.

Wildstar fiasco says hi.

[xanzul]

I think it's pretty obvious at this point that WoW isn't going to gain subs outside of the 3-6 month period after a new expansion, and is going to struggle over an average year, to maintain its figures. But I think people overestimate how many subs are needed for a game to "survive" or be sustainable.

Exactly this not to mention the fact that due to advances in new technology such as hardware virtualization the overhead required in order to maintain an mmo has likely dropped significantly meaning even less players are required for a mmo to remain profitable.

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The real question people should be asking is: How long will it be until WoW get's overtaken by another Subscription MMO that costs 14.99U$D/Month

I like how people still prattle on about Wow killers despite several of them shutting down after years of floundering and failure.

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Just let this filthy casual crap cash cow 10 year old game die out already

Or how about this? Don't play it.

[Osmeric]

Whenever I see a "will not survive!" comment, I have to ask: when?

OF COURSE WoW will die some day. As Dr. D.L. Kazzak reminded us, all mortals will perish.

So just saying the game won't survive, without giving a time when it will expire, is saying nothing.

[xanzul]

Data shows habits, not the reasons behind them.

The story on Cata 5-man instances, GCs "L2P" blog, and the "mea culpa" following showed impressively how badly Blizz understands the motivation of the player-base.

I'm pretty sure, there used to be a person who got it right, but he or she was not there anymore when Cata hit. Game design isn't about doing what the people want or even like, it is about raising desires and keeping people motivated to pursue them. This is nothing you can learn from "data".

Blizzard has many many many sources for their metrics and I would imagine they are able to discern more than just habits from the data they collect. Face it: contrary to popular belief Blizzard does actually know what they are doing and they most certainly know better than the bitter jaded nobodies on these forums.

[Progmar]

Oh, c'mon. You're smarter than that. MMOs (and games in general) are a massively hit driven market. In such a market you can't draw any conclusions from sales numbers, other than to observe that one of the games got lucky, got into a positive feedback loop, and became a hit.

Oh please, the hardcore community on this forum has spent the last three years telling us how it's "casualization" that made WoW start losing subscribers during Cataclysm. Millions of players supposedly driven to quit the game by "not having anything to aspire to" and "epics no longer being epic" and all sorts of other silly bullshit that nobody outside of a myopic lifer gives a damn about.

Then Wildstar decided to put their money where the hardcore's mouth was, and the results were laughably obvious to everyone who didn't spend 2005 shitting into a sock raiding MC and loving it: Nobody cares. The hardcore's mythical army of millions of players looking for a more challenging MMO doesn't exist. MoanaLisa is being polite when she acts like the jury might still be out. In reality no subscription MMO has ever really been successful without at least a couple years of steady growth to start off, and Wildstar is already in "OMG SERVER MERGES PLZ" mode after like two months.

Wildstar is going to be brought up for the next ten years every time some hardcore acts like "exclusive raiding bla bla bla" is actually financially viable.

[xanzul]

No king rules forever. WoW is past it's prime. I will continue to enjoy it for many years, as will others, but fact of the matter is that WoW won't be around forever. The Warcraft franchise we will see more of, I'm certain. Movies and another RTS perhaps.

What's important to remember is that WoW could shut down tomorrow and it will still be one of the greatest games of all time.



The vast majority of people who played WoW never reached max level even. Casual trash? Get off your high horse, please.

If EQ1 and other mmos that never had more than 750k subscribers can last 15 years, then Wow can certainly last as long or longer and they even have the advantage of having a significantly higher number of players to use as a buffer. Again Wow is very likely to be one of the first mmos to outlive its players.

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Its going F2P after the new Casual-Expansion is released. Its not a matter of if, its a matter of when.

It will go free to play when it is more profitable to do so. Once again EQ1 charged a subscription for nearly 15 years and only recently started offering a free to play option. Why would it be any different for Wow?

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Implying that this trend won't continue.

Won't last two years at the going rate. We're slated to be in and around the 1-3 million range if WoD flops.

EQ1 never had more than 750k subscribers and it is doing just fine. Why do you think Wow can't survive with 1 million subscribers? Are you ever going to back up your outlandish statements or are you just going to continue talking out of your ass as usual?

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Sorry but this is completely ridiculous.

''Nothing will change if subscription drops below 1 million''.

The game would change drastically if it dropped so low, Blizzard would have to change the game around even more to keep the cash cow going, and if they aren't able to they would start focusing on other games.

Wow lost over 4 million subscribers prior to Mop and guess what Blizzard did? They more than doubled the amount of artists and developers for Wow and even pulled people off other projects to shift them over to Wow. You are right things will change but not in the way you want or hope. Wow is here to stay. Get over it.

As far as "cash cows" go, in order for it to be a "cash cow" there has to be people providing said cash which means it is in Blizzard best interests to provide a game many people will enjoy and continue paying for. If anything greed would motivate them to do more for their customers, not less.

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This. People that think they are just going to keep doing then are naive at best.

Blizzard will fish where the the fish are, not where they think they are.

Expect changes to come down the pipe to combat this subscription loss in the coming weeks.

The fish are playing Wow despite you and the other haters best efforts to chase everyone away from this game. Again if lost subscriptions meant less support for the game then why would Blizzard invest so much money and time and resources into things like connected realms, transmog, cross realm heirlooms, and all the various things they have done to increase customer support efficiency? Ticket times are the lowest they have ever been, people are able to handle many issues through the new customer support webchat and they now have a callback system so players don't have to sit around on hold when they need to speak with customer support.

So what exactly is Blizzard doing less of now due to lost subscriptions?

[Count Zero]

Well the thing is, those lower "difficulties" aren't difficult. They don't give you a sense of the possibility of losing or failure, and therefore they take away the nature of the game.

I can see that LFR is a different beast than organized raiding, yes. But how does its existence affect organized raiding ? I doubt there is a significant number of people who would have done organized raiding if lfr didn't exist.

[xanzul]

The problem is that the game is now more focused on catering to an audience that hold no real loyalty to the franchise, or even the game itself. These are the kinds of players that come and go all the time. When there's a new game to hold their attention for a week or two, they'll quit WoW and move on to that.

I realize that Blizzard has no other choice, because it's just not financially possible to sustain themselves by leaving the game as hard and time consuming as it used to be. But I do believe there's a middle-ground that can be met, which I think Blizzard themselves are aware of as well.

Over 25 million have quit Wow over the past 10 years so all this nonsense about "loyalty" is complete and utter bullshit. It is a video game not a life style or a civil rights movement. Most people just play the game and move on when bored which is perfectly fine.

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Oh, c'mon. You're smarter than that. MMOs (and games in general) are a massively hit driven market. In such a market you can't draw any conclusions from sales numbers, other than to observe that one of the games got lucky, got into a positive feedback loop, and became a hit.

I love how people continually try to minimize what Blizzard has done with Wow, something NO OTHER game developer has been able to do. People are playing Wow because they like Wow, not because the developers got lucky.

[Osmeric]

The problem is that the game is now more focused on catering to an audience that hold no real loyalty to the franchise, or even the game itself. These are the kinds of players that come and go all the time. When there's a new game to hold their attention for a week or two, they'll quit WoW and move on to that.

I'm amused when arguments like this are combined with dire predictions that all the hardcores will leave, or that sub losses have been due to casualization causing the hardcores to leave.

[xanzul]

I don't agree with the "free tour" mentality. I mean look, playing a game takes learning, it takes investment on the part of the player. It takes a lose-condition. Take that away and you don't have a game.

This is why we have harder content for those seeking a challenge. The existence of easy content doesn't negate that at all. In Wod they are even making the easy content less attractive to those only interested in challenging content so I really don't understand what the issue is now. Do the content you like and mind your own damn business when it concerns what other players are doing.

[Saxtorph]

I have come to the conclusion that WoW can not survive with the model that Blizzard are aiming for!

Now I didn't raid in TBC, I only started shortly before 3.0 but my friend that got me into the game let me follow him around Org one day, I say a hunter in full T6 and I was in awe of him and even more so when I was told what he had to do to get that gear, I wondered could I ever be "that" good!!

Wrath came around and I started to learn more about the game, over the next 2 years I got better and better and then near the end of Wrath, I was that guy on his frostwyrm in full 277 gear (mostly...damn you deathbringer!!!!) and I had players ask me "wow how did you get that gear, I loved it, the attention, the feeling that I was the envy of these players.

Now the current state of the game, where everyone can get to see all content, can get gear that looks the same as the top players, there is no targets anymore!
The game needs "noobs" to see the top players and think, I want to be like that some day!!

If a boss is too hard then tough, you keep hitting your face off it till it dies, that is how you see the next boss, now I am not saying to make it as difficult as TBC claims to be, but harder that wrath! The results of this would be content would last longer, people would not burn out and overall I think people would be happier knowing they always have something to aim for

So because attention whores don't get the attention they seek the game is flawed and near death. Gotcha!

[xanzul]

People who want to go on and on about subs fail to comprehend that when WoW was at its peak, in the ICC patch, they had 10 and 25 man normal and heroic versions of a massive raid with a lot of bosses, faceroll heroics which let you cap out points to buy tier pieces from a vendor, obsolete were still giving rewards at the time, and pvp still had class/counter-class structure. Old content from expansions past wasn't removed, heirlooms were limited in existence, and flying didn't change the feel of anything in Northrend.
So why they think bringing back BC-style bullshit will help bolster numbers when it was Wrath that had the peak subs is a bit of a mystery.

And what makes you think Wrath didn't have a higher rate of subscriber churn compared to other expansions? In fact Blizzard straight up said this was the case for Wrath not that anyone cares to acknowledge that inconvenient fact.

[Santoryu]

Except that defeats the point of everyone getting to see the content.

Where does it say everyone needs to see all the content? Entitlement complex much?

[Deleted]

People were declaring that WoW won't survive then TBC was announced. Am I missing something here or is this another useless doomsayer thread?

[xanzul]

Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot

Have you been on the AH lately? Level 10-45 gear is easily 1000g for greens. Level 90 Blues sell for like 10G.

There is ZERO balance in the PVP area while leveling. And why not? EQ, EQ2, COH, DAOC, Shadowbane...they ALL had SOME kind of balance throughout the entire leveling process in PVP and they not close to the talent and size of Blizzard. Blizz acts like they dont give a shit. Try pvping with a MW Monk in low level. All you ever see is Prot/Arms Warriors, Hunters of every caliber, Destro Locks, Resto Druids, and Disc Priests. Almost every other Spec is irrelevant. And the sad thing is they COULD assign a very small group to make small adjustments that wouldn't affect gameplay negatively. Why doesn't MW get a Burst On Demand Heal earlier on? Why dont ALL the tanks get AOE to grab aggro at 10? Why are TANKS able to do one shot moves? TONE THAT SHIT DOWN. I love to level characters and I like to stop the monotony now and then by PVP but one game of standing in the GY while 8 rogues attack you is stupid.

Anal this.....Anal that...N-word....It's been here from the start and here we are 10 years later. Now I like a good joke now and then but when the N word starts flying around people need to be banned and not this 3 hr crap. Week Long ban right out the gate. Make a HUGE show of it so there is zero doubt of what happens. I've seen the same level 90 for 6 months straight make racist remarks and other hateful phrases that are still around making the same crap 6 months later. 1st Offense 7 day ban. 2nd offense 3 month ban. 3rd offense account ban. There is no Accident...there's is no oops it slipped....you know damn well what you are saying and you KNOW damn well it's not allowed.

In the last 2 years I've gotten about 5 friends to try out WoW. And they all gave the same response. Cant compete AT ALL in PvP. They're expected to level to 90, grind heirlooms then pick a "Chosen" class to ENJOY a bit of PVP every now and then. AH Prices is retarded for ANYTHING. In RL we have laws in place to prevent a monopoly. In WoW there is no such thing. So you have ONE rich person buying up EVERYTHING and selling it for 1000x it's value. There should be a cap on greens. A bigger cap on blues...Purples who cares.

This game is only alive by the virtue of a dedicated group of players. But even that will get old 15-20 years from now and without an Influx of new people it will finally stagnant and die. As a Board Member, I'd be interested in the long term effect and demand more be brought to the table to help keep the new influx of players involved.

1. The fact that Blizzard allows players to drive the economy is a good thing.
2. There is no such thing as perfect balance and it has been like this from the start and even in other mmos this is an issue despite all the revisionist history and blatant lies.
3. If you see people violating rules, REPORT THEM. Failure to do so makes you as much of a problem as those you are complaining about.

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Well the thing is, those lower "difficulties" aren't difficult. They don't give you a sense of the possibility of losing or failure, and therefore they take away the nature of the game.

Ever think to consider those easier raids aren't meant for you?

[madmanx]

I agree with you most people aren't willing to admit it, but it is one of, if not the biggest driving force in MMOs. Think about the people who spent thousands on Runescape party hats. MMO's boil down to status and friends. People rise up to the level of content, not the other way around.

If this was the case, WoW would never have taken off in the first place. The much harder and more grindy EverQuest would rule supreme. A few hardcore raiders probably do raise to the content but lets face it, this is a small group and a very temporary one as few peaple can be bothered to raid progressively for 12 years. A vast majority of players couldn't be bothered though and I actually know someone that has played since 04 and yet never had a max level character after vanilla.

Your average WoW player is not a gamer, it is someone that plays a little now and then for fun.

[Pann]

And what makes you think Wrath didn't have a higher rate of subscriber churn compared to other expansions? In fact Blizzard straight up said this was the case for Wrath not that anyone cares to acknowledge that inconvenient fact.

Did they? I have never seen them say anything of the sort. I don't suppose you have a link?

[xanzul]

Oh, Xanzul long time no see, I take it you're on shift all night/day and you'll be dissecting all the posts in this thread?

Blizzard did not offer TBC as part of the Battlechest until the end of June 2011 which was six months after Cata's launch. So clearly what you are saying that WOW and its expansions has never been more than $70 is incorrect in fact, assuming that price points follow the pattern of previous expansions and stay as they are, it would cost from Blizzard $90 for a new player to get into WOD.

This is a discussion forum and that is what I am doing. What are you doing outside of lying through your teeth as usual?

I'm sorry but the math adds up and at no point has Wow ever been half the price of a game console. Also you might want to check yor math because new players can get the Wow battlechest, Mop, and Wod for $75 on Blizzard's site. It isn't $90.

[ApeDosMil]

*rolls around in the OP's logic*

Gaw! So, comfy!!

Seriously, what kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to come to this conclusion? WoW caters to many playstyles: there are 2(some count 3) tiers of pvp; there are now 4 difficulties in raids; there are rares in the world that can be soloed by some skilled people or a group can take it down; dungeons have two difficulties, though MoP that wasn't the case; and scenarios have two difficulties as well. I swear the people saying the game is getting "dumbed down" or is "too easy" are most assuredly not on Heroic (soon to be mythic) content. IF you are that one person who solos current raids and 'lolz' at the game's difficulty... I dunno, go engineer something and make billions of dollars instead of crapping on other people on a forum.