Changing from 10 man to 25 man

[Deleted]

Hi Priests!

It is late in the expansion and the 10 man raid group I am with, for a plethora of reasons, hasn't yet progressed to 14/14HC. For the past couple of months we have been on 11/14 HC though due to the summer boss (holidays, unplanned overtime, only one or two nights a week of raiding) we've only managed a good 150+ wipes on Siegecrafter. Since time is ticking away, and as mythic will be 20 man come WoD (we won't be aiming for top end progression but will be hoping to get a good few of the bosses down), we are soon switching from 10 to 25. However, I've not raided 25 man since WotLK. So, on that note, is there any general advice that you would give to a mediocre Discipline priest starting out in this format? There are a few things I've picked up on but I would like the communities opinion on the biggest differences that will affect me.

Thank you!

[Jimjam38]

I raid 25man and have been since joining my guild at the end of tot when they went 25man. I didnt raid before that. Anyway...
I've pugged enough 10mans to know the differences. 10man sees a much higher use of PWS than 25man, as does (can) PoH. In 10man PoH can cover half the raid each cast, its relatively stronger than in 25man. In 25man its only really good for Spirit Shell and Whoring meters (hc thok is the first time ive found it legitimately necessary outside of SS, only during devo and inner focus of course).
25man, the level 90 godmode talents are your super saiyan goku buttons. Divine star everything, cascade if people refuse to stack, halo if real dmg only happens once per min. But mostly just divine star.
Keep PWS to a minimum beyone rapture, meta procs and emergencies.
Atonement is still stupidely effective for keeping bads alive and saving spike deaths.
Level 90 talents for the heavy lifting, spirit shell when necessary and atonement for everything else. The other healers are there just incase divine star dont got it at some point. Not much more to it.

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Enjoy making the restos cry while you can, obviously none of this will apply to wod

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Also, im sure you knew most of this already, just wanted to be thorough.
Also, you can probably drop even more spirit if possible, more mana tides and Hymns than 10man depending on your raid group.

[Dierdre]

So, on that note, is there any general advice that you would give to a mediocre Discipline priest starting out in this format? There are a few things I've picked up on but I would like the communities opinion on the biggest differences that will affect me.Thank you!

General advice: Sit back and enjoy. 25 is waaaay more forgiving, your Divine Star and halo are waaaaaay overpowered, plethora of raid cooldowns make your life waaaaay easier.

Welcome to easy mode.

[Deleted]

Well I'm also playing 10 man most of the time, but slowly transitioning since, well, WOD...

Not wanting to dwell in the 10vs25 argument but, its true that 25man seems easier (as in more forgiving) than 10man for a lot of things when healing. Except for 1 or 2 things : standing in bad will be less forgiving than in 10man. We have a tendency to bruteforce most of SoO bosses since we're overgearing and are well used to bosses' abilities. I, sometimes, stay in bad for longer than needed because I want to finish a cast of PoH for example. It's not a problem because our healing will take care of that dmg. In 25man, don't stand in bad, like, at all because it's more punishing.
I guess it's just the damage pattern we have to get used to : the scaling of all the damage is different and feels weird in the beginning.

Positionning is also really a bitch in 25man when you get to the last bosses.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the replies! This is very much what I was expecting (in terms of what to do) so that is nice. I'm also quite surprised that 25 man is labelled as easier - I guess we will see how that develops. Unfortunately, I can't drop any more Spirit with the gear I currently have. Drops have not been kind to me but the extra mana cushion will be appreciated. I don't think my play style will require too much an adjustment - I typically try to keep PW:S limited to Rapture procs and will lean more on DS + Legendary healing cloak. Now just to remember to equip it...

[Deleted]

Well, healing certainly feels easier mostly because of all the AOE and smart heals coming from 3 or more healers. Shit can hit the fan, you're notthe only one who'll have to cope with it...

But frankly, I'd say it's harder than 10 man when you get to the last HC bosses because at this point, it's not about you're own healing skill anymore. It's now about team effort : strat and positionning. And those are really a bitch in 25man. HC Siegecrafter and Klaxxi are hard enough to manage when you're a team of 10 ppl, when you're 25man, you're more likely to fail...

[Ampere]

Having no AoE cap on the level 90 talents (until 6.0) remains such a baffling decision...

[Deleted]

Well, healing certainly feels easier mostly because of all the AOE and smart heals coming from 3 or more healers. Shit can hit the fan, you're notthe only one who'll have to cope with it...

But frankly, I'd say it's harder than 10 man when you get to the last HC bosses because at this point, it's not about you're own healing skill anymore. It's now about team effort : strat and positionning. And those are really a bitch in 25man. HC Siegecrafter and Klaxxi are hard enough to manage when you're a team of 10 ppl, when you're 25man, you're more likely to fail...

From what I have read in preparation, it seems to be suggested that 10 man is more difficult. For HC Siegecrafter this is apparently due to a lack of control and from issues with positioning being stretched thin while Garrosh is supposedly easier due to more control and possible kiting for the adds. Anyway, that is a little off mark from what I wanted to know - easier or more difficult I am more concerned if there are major changes to how Discipline heals or if there are tricks applicable to 25 man and not 10 man that I might have missed but this doesn't seem to be the case!

Having no AoE cap on the level 90 talents (until 6.0) remains such a baffling decision...

Presumably because Discipline wouldn't scale as much as the other healers and relative numbers would place it closer to how it performs in 10 man but in a 25 man situation? Removing the cap would necessitate an overhaul of both Priest specs as decreasing the ability of Discipline wouldn't solve the woes of Holy and would just result in Discipline being replaced by better suited healers. At this stage in the game it is either keep Discipline the way it is and allow Priests representation or hinder Discipline and potentially make Priests less abundant in healing. This has not much to do with 10 vs 25 though!

[Nzete]

In case it stated enough, level 90 your brains out. Archangel, divine star immediately after, and you get a second divine star with archangel up. Make your atonement hit the low health adds if possible to keep twisted faith up.

For 25H given our raid's strategies
Halo fights: Immerseus, Shaman, Nagrim, Blackfuse
Cascade fights: IJ, Malkorak
Still progression: Paragon/Garrosh
All others are divine star. With more than one priest in the raid for Thok, assign starting points for divine star to get them happening at different times over the course of the fight.

We progressed to 10H on tens and then reprogressed on 25H with massive recruiting (and running with socials to make numbers for a while). We changed a couple of months after Blizzcon's announcement of 20s raiding.

[Dracodraco]

In case it stated enough, level 90 your brains out. Archangel, divine star immediately after, and you get a second divine star with archangel up. Make your atonement hit the low health adds if possible to keep twisted faith up.

For 25H given our raid's strategies
Halo fights: Immerseus, Shaman, Nagrim, Blackfuse
Cascade fights: IJ, Malkorak
Still progression: Paragon/Garrosh
All others are divine star. With more than one priest in the raid for Thok, assign starting points for divine star to get them happening at different times over the course of the fight.

We progressed to 10H on tens and then reprogressed on 25H with massive recruiting (and running with socials to make numbers for a while). We changed a couple of months after Blizzcon's announcement of 20s raiding.

Why would you ever cascade Malkorok? Halo (if you run into the middle to cast it) is a *lot* stronger where it matters (ranged), as melee is healed by ground effects either way.
Generally, I'd say:

Immerseus - Halo to heal blobs. Cascade to heal raid (get 1-2 healing buffs, cascade a raid member, watch maxed divine aegis rampage through the entire raid and 500K cascade ticks)/whore HPS.

Protectors: Divine Star if you keep them stacked. Halo if not (you can easily position in this fight for max output).

Norushen: Divine star.

Sha of pride: Divine star if stacked for gifts+trying to whore HPS. Halo if not (time it so it hits as prisons go out and people are moving, and hit the entire raid with a fully charged halo-aegis coverage right before swelling pride to ensure max survivability).

Galakras: Divine star.

Juggernaut: Cascade due to limited stacking/relatively "heavy" position changes during the AOE phase.

Dark shamans: Cascade if both shamans are kept together (melee+ranged will be far from each other ensuring max power, hard to ensure max halo power due to tornados and other obstacles etc, along with being on the same timer as falling ash, while Halo is longer). Divine star if you split melee/ranged (both upstairs and down - there'll be 1 group of raiders to hit either way).

Nazgrim: Halo (too long charge time on Cascade to combat a warcry).

Malkorok: Halo (cascade's melee healing is useless, ranged is the ones in "danger" of dying due to balls+soaking implosions, so run to melee and halo to hit every ranged at max distance -in between the knock ups, of course).

Spoils: Personal preference is Halo, as I usually solo heal mogu side, and it works as coverage against 2x of the big statue's smashes (first it heals up a hit, second hit 10 seconds later is absorbed by the Aegis). Others are possibly usefull, but it's going to depend on your raid.

Thok: Obviously Divine star.

Siegecrafter: Cascade if you frequently get +4 overloads (so as to help healing up the melee), Divine star if you only get 3 (so you can divine star, spirit shell, divine star the overloads on ranged and let your paladin/druid/shaman deal with melee).

Paragons: Cascade or Halo depending on preference. Cascade gives more overall HPS, Halo has a bigger measureable effect on the raid (EG you get cascade which absorbs a bit before every single fiery lines, while you only get halo every other - however, Halo absorbs/heals a lot more than cascade on every other). I'd recommend Halo if you lack raid CDS for every line, Cascade if not.

Garrosh: Depending on tactic/setup, Divine star or Halo are both viable choises. Essentially, if you run as a group to avoid empowered whirling crashes, and let your monk tank pick up, you'll need divine star to effectively heal while moving. It is also by far the best choise for healing in the intermission as it can be used multiple times throughout the annihilates. If you apply another tactic (spread and kill, or as have become more common recently, stacking and popping every single raid CD and just eating the hits), Halo is a great choise if you can get yourself at max distance without hurting the raid - it lines up so that it is ready for every single whirling, and hits for heavy amounts.

[Deleted]

In case it stated enough, level 90 your brains out. Archangel, divine star immediately after, and you get a second divine star with archangel up. Make your atonement hit the low health adds if possible to keep twisted faith up.

Yup, this is very much what I do (or try to) at the moment. Anyway, this makes it seem like it will be a pretty easy transition for myself.

Generally, I'd say:...

Thank you! My usage pattern of L90s is quite similar at the moment with the biggest difference being a preference for Divine Star on IJ due to two healing, not being near IJ during Siege Mode and a slight amount of struggling during this phase. I will try Cascade for 25 man though.

[Dracodraco]

Yup, this is very much what I do (or try to) at the moment. Anyway, this makes it seem like it will be a pretty easy transition for myself.



Thank you! My usage pattern of L90s is quite similar at the moment with the biggest difference being a preference for Divine Star on IJ due to two healing, not being near IJ during Siege Mode and a slight amount of struggling during this phase. I will try Cascade for 25 man though.

If you decide to do the pussy-tactic of getting knocked to africa on IJ, you'll want to go with Halo and position yourself for max halo benefit. People will be slightly spread (due to the AOE-projectiles, so you don't get 1 shot) making them not close enough for divine stat, but too closely stacked for Cascade to really benefit during the siege phase.

[Jimjam38]

The whole 10man vs 25man thing is very subjective to say the least. I hear a lot of 10man people saying its so much harder, but imo this isn't entirely true. While 25man does have significantly more utility and cooldowns, the advantageous impact of any single player on the raid is that much less significant while the disadvantageous impact remains a significant as in 10man, and the problem is that it is tuned with this extra utility in mind, making it considerably more troublesome if the raid doesn't make good use of the extra utility.
Furthermore, the extra players means far more wipe potential from stupid mistakes.

The laser on Iron Jug is a great example. Blizzard doesn't choose to only target good players with that ability, and with 15 more people in the raid there's 15 more possible morons to blow the raid up by running it through tar, and there nothing you can do about it if that happens. At the same time, if someone forgets to use their raid cd at the appointed time (eg, a warrior doesn't rallying before the shock pulse), or stood in bad and died before they were meant to use it, then the result can be far less forgiving than 10man, where personals, self heals and hot blanketing can make recovery much easier. In 10man there's a lot more responsibility on individual survival, if someone dies its often their fault, its easy to pinpoint and often easy enough to resolve, where as in 25man if someone dies it can often be another players fault (mechanics done badly, cooldowns not used) and its often not so clear what went wrong and whose fault it is.

Certain mechanics also lend themselves much more to one or the other. Another great example is Malk and spoils. Malk is much easier on 10man since the puddles mechanic is a lot easier to deal with (less puddles, much easier to see and manage) and the healing mechanic is much more easily handled (hot blanketing 10 people is not at all difficult), while on 25man you can have multiple puddles spawn in a single wedge and the chance of one being missed while 2 people soak the other is a lot higher since individual player communication is much less simple with 25 people than 10 (One does not simply keep vent clear when soaking puddles), and healing becomes much more demanding when hot blanketing isn't as viable, making the over all encounter a much more challenging experience for most 25man teams.
On the other hand, spoils is much harder for 10man since the hc mechanic of the sparks spawning is a far greater tax on dps than it is in 25man. In 25man the sparks can be easily dealt with by a single player, at most 2, per side, out of the 12 or 13 people on a side. In 10man it still takes a single person almost full time per side (or many people constantly switching), but that's 1 out of 5 players, a much more significant portion of the total dps.

At a hardcore level, where every single player is highly skilled and there are no bads at all, yes, undoubtably 25man is easier due to all the extra utility, but at the average guild level, no, I certainly don't think 25man is easier. The impact of a player screwing up is no less than in 10man, and there's more than double the number of people to potentially screw up.

[Dracodraco]

The whole 10 vs 25 thing in general barely applies to this topic though, Atonement :P. Not really a great thing to bring up as it usually brings the worst out in people and doesn't have a lot to do with the topic. I will add that you forgot that in a lot of cases, DPS checks are far more lenient in 10 man (glaring examples from this tier would be Siegecrafter with 500M vs 1770M hp, and Paragons where your tank with a scorpion just completly trivialises the encounter in 10 man).

[Jimjam38]

I would have said the glaring example was nuroshen 25man pre nerf, but that could have been normal only. I remember we couldnt kill it for 3 weeks on 25man and had to keep skipping it with a 10man team (my participation in which boosted me straight from a trial to a core raider I might add XD)

[Dracodraco]

I would have said the glaring example was nuroshen 25man pre nerf, but that could have been normal only. I remember we couldnt kill it for 3 weeks on 25man and had to keep skipping it with a 10man team (my participation in which boosted me straight from a trial to a core raider I might add XD)

Don't even remember normal. I know for a fact that on heroic, 25 man had to do the "don't send anyone in"-tactic as you'd ultimately get more corruption than you'd lose by purifying someone every single time, while in 10 man you could do it "normally" as it is now.
(Explanation: Each pulse of add+ball gave everyone in the raid 2 corruption. Soaking an orb gave 25. Minimum one pulse from adds when spawned and one pulse from orbs when spawned, as those were unavoidable = 50+50 unavoidable corruption, along with 25 to soak the orb. 125 corruption to cleanse someone from max 100 corruption. In 10 man, it'd be 20+20 = 40+25 to soak orb = 65 to cleanse for max 100).

[Jimjam38]

Yeah, its a long way back for me too. I dont remember the adds or orbs giving raidwide corruption, so that was probably a heroic thing that got removed before we got there. I also remember that the enrage was very short, it got hotfixed a few times I believe. I also seem to remember that in normal people started with 75 corruption, and at 100 corruption you did no damage to the boss, only to adds. I think they changed that so that at 100 you still did 25%, and then scaled the other corruption levels accordingly.
Either way, asside from it just being horrendously overtuned it had an insane dps check for such an early boss in 25man, and the relative dps check for 10man was much lower

[Deleted]

First realisation of trying 25 man - loads of people can die and bosses still die. I really really need to upgrade my PC...

[laplacedemon]

i remember turning off incoming heals giving me quite a big fps increase when we switched to 25s, maybe that could be helpful to you too.

[Deleted]

i remember turning off incoming heals giving me quite a big fps increase when we switched to 25s, maybe that could be helpful to you too.

I haven't used that since TBC unfortunately =/

I think it will be a matter of just finally upgrading bits and pieces.