Combat rogue

[Deleted]

Greetings,

I've recently got the luck to finally get 2x cleave weapons for my rogue. I was very excited I finally got to try out the other spec of rogue, combat.
I regemmed, reforged and even learned the entire rotation.

My previous spec was Assassination and I did around 240k dps on the heroic training dummy *ilevel 558*
Now I'm combat and I'm doing around 220k dps on the heroic training dummy *ilevel 560*

I currently have the Normal Warforged fist weapon from The Fallen Protectors and the Flexible Heirloom Axe from Garrosh.
I have both hit and expertise capped. My haste is currently at 45.18% unbuffed and my mastery is at 41.89% unbuffed.

In my previous spec, Assassination, I had the flexible dagger from Norushen and the LFR dagger from Thok the Bloodthirsty.

Now my question is: Why is my dps way lower in Combat when I have better weapons and the same armor?
Following Haste > Mastery > Crit btw.


*NOTE: the rotation im following is:

Open with ambush, revealing strike, 1x sinister strike, silce and dice, killing spree, Adrenaline rush + shadow blades, 1x rupture, spam sinister strike, use cp to refresh rupture/silce and dice and use cp to cast Eviscerate. I'm always trying to get as low energy as possible before using killing spree and I'm never losing either rupture or slice and dice. Never getting losing revealing strike either.

Thanks in advance,
- Angel

[Cellot]

An armory link and some logs if possible would help.

[chuachua]

Always open with ambush > snd > ks > arsb > rvs > ss and so on. No point delaying your snd at the start it's a waste of your procs.

[Ryme]

Couple questions:

Do you have Assurance of Conquest?
Are you clipping rupture?
Are you comfortable using rupture?
How much are you delaying KS?
How many CPs are you using to refresh SnD?

If you have any logs, that would be ace.

[Deleted]

I cant link an armory link yet since I do not have permission to.
Roguezs EU Silvermoon.


Do you have Assurance of Conquest? Yes the LFR one
Are you clipping rupture? No.
Are you comfortable using rupture? Yes.
How much are you delaying KS? Max 5 sec.
How many CPs are you using to refresh SnD? Depends, 5 CPs if I have the time, less if it's about to run out.

What exactly do you mean with logs.

[Ryme]

OK, well to get you started, trying having a look through Shadowcraft. With a quick optimisation I was able to get a "free" 1.5k dps for your gear - this is about the equivilent of using rupture just so you have an idea of the worth of that spell.

With logs I would be able to pick apart your playstyle and perhaps offer insight into where dps is being lost.

From what you've said so far, the following are issues you can improve on:

- Refresh SnD with whatever cps you have once it gets to around <2 seconds left - the only exception to this is to refresh it before you're heading into a Deep Insight if it would drop off during that Deep Insight (basically, you only want to be doing offensive finishers during deep insight)
- Once you get more haste, delaying Killing Spree becomes less and less effective. At most I'd just push it below 40-50 energy.
- You're opener is slightly out, you want to be pushing into CDs quicker since the opener is the period of everything proccing together. The advice above of using the cps from Ambush to get up SnD then going into KS -> Adrenablades is correct.

- Slight nuances: You want to push through lower insight levels to get to Deep Insight as soon as you can. The result of this is that you want to be using your combo point builders that move your insight level beyond 5 combo points and pool the points into Anticipation. The only exception to this is when you have a large trinket proc that you need to take advantage of.

In general, build to 3 anticipation, 2 if you're under Shadow Blades unless you have a meaningful trinket proc or you're in deep insight.

[Deleted]

OK, well to get you started, trying having a look through. With a quick optimisation I was able to get a "free" 1.5k dps for your gear - this is about the equivilent of using rupture just so you have an idea of the worth of that spell.

With logs I would be able to pick apart your playstyle and perhaps offer insight into where dps is being lost.

From what you've said so far, the following are issues you can improve on:

- Refresh SnD with whatever cps you have once it gets to around <2 seconds left - the only exception to this is to refresh it before you're heading into a Deep Insight if it would drop off during that Deep Insight (basically, you only want to be doing offensive finishers during deep insight)
- Once you get more haste, delaying Killing Spree becomes less and less effective. At most I'd just push it below 40-50 energy.
- You're opener is slightly out, you want to be pushing into CDs quicker since the opener is the period of everything proccing together. The advice above of using the cps from Ambush to get up SnD then going into KS -> Adrenablades is correct.

- Slight nuances: You want to push through lower insight levels to get to Deep Insight as soon as you can. The result of this is that you want to be using your combo point builders that move your insight level beyond 5 combo points and pool the points into Anticipation. The only exception to this is when you have a large trinket proc that you need to take advantage of.

In general, build to 3 anticipation, 2 if you're under Shadow Blades unless you have a meaningful trinket proc or you're in deep insight.

Thank you very much, I tried this out and my dps has indeed gone up.
Also thank you everyone for taking the time to read my post and help me out.

Have a great day.

[Ryme]

Glad we could help, feel free to pm me if you have any further queries.

[Kael]

My previous spec was Assassination and I did around 240k dps on the heroic training dummy *ilevel 558*
Now I'm combat and I'm doing around 220k dps on the heroic training dummy *ilevel 560*

Ryme's covered most of the potential answers, but to point out why people are asking for logs (Warcraftlogs, Worldoflogs), you're hitting dummies -- this presumes that you don't have full raid buffs, they're not raid debuffed, and their health doesn't go from 100-0 over time or temporary external buffs like bloodlust/heroism. The results you get there are really far from conclusive (unless you go into SimC, sim yourself against a dummy with no external buffs, and get different results from what you see in person).

Further, logs can illustrate where you're doing what, as opposed to what you intend to do at any point in time (which can help with understanding how closely you follow your intentions - what to work on, and if rupture is worthwhile for you mechanically).

[shadowboy]

Open with ambush, revealing strike, 1x sinister strike, silce and dice, killing spree, Adrenaline rush + shadow blades, 1x rupture, spam sinister strike, use cp to refresh rupture/silce and dice and use cp to cast Eviscerate. I'm always trying to get as low energy as possible before using killing spree and I'm never losing either rupture or slice and dice. Never getting losing revealing strike either.

SnD sooner. It should be your second global. Also never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever perform a 1-point rupture or eviscerate. Ever. Did I mention your damaging finishers should never be undersized? This is of course assuming that you mean a 1cp rupture by "1x rupture." Rupture offers no mechanics-based benefit to combat like it does the other specs. The only reason you use rupture is because it does more damage than eviscerate and as such, you should only use 5-point ruptures. For combat, rupture uptime is FAR less important than the number of combo points used on those ruptures.

[Dextar]

I'd suggest your opener to be:

TotT Tank>Pot>Stealth>ShS to Boss>Ambush>SnD>RvS>SS>KS>AR/SB>(Depending on your CPs)SS or Evis> normal rotation.

Note, this works really well if you've got very low latency, high haste, and are quick at pressing your buttons. If you get any lag it goes to garbage. =(

[Xaide]

I don't agree with that last opener. You want to get your cool downs rolling as soon as possible. The only change I would make to the one stated earlier is to put RvS in front of AR/SB to knock off some energy before you get capped. You want to KS right after SnD to get it on cool down especially since it's on such a short cool down anyways.

[Deleted]

it is viable but youll need to add another SS in there to get to green insight before you pop KS, i use it on some bosses (thok running while pulled)

eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/10302000393

this topic speaks about different rotations (made by a forum member here) just read that, no need for me to repeat and make it look like its my idea

*the forum seems to be down for me at least, but it should still be there when it comes back up

[Dextar]

I don't agree with that last opener. You want to get your cool downs rolling as soon as possible. The only change I would make to the one stated earlier is to put RvS in front of AR/SB to knock off some energy before you get capped. You want to KS right after SnD to get it on cool down especially since it's on such a short cool down anyways.

With the combo of Ambush>SnD>RvS>SS(x2 depending on energy)>KS gives you anywhere from 3-5cps and low energy so when you get out of KS it allows you to pop SS (to get another cp and lower your energy before)>AR+SB>Evis/Rupture. This lowers both the CDs on KS and AR+SB.

It's gotten me multiple rankings while our guild carries a buyer on H. Garrosh.
http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/c31YLPQnyVZNxmqM

To each their own though.

[Dendalaus]

With the combo of Ambush>SnD>RvS>SS(x2 depending on energy)>KS gives you anywhere from 3-5cps and low energy so when you get out of KS it allows you to pop SS (to get another cp and lower your energy before)>AR+SB>Evis/Rupture. This lowers both the CDs on KS and AR+SB.

It's gotten me multiple rankings while our guild carries a buyer on H. Garrosh.
<snip>

To each their own though.

Why SS before AR+SB? They aren't on the GCD so you can just macro a SS into it and get an extra combo point.

[Xaide]

With the combo of Ambush>SnD>RvS>SS(x2 depending on energy)>KS gives you anywhere from 3-5cps and low energy so when you get out of KS it allows you to pop SS (to get another cp and lower your energy before)>AR+SB>Evis/Rupture. This lowers both the CDs on KS and AR+SB.

It's gotten me multiple rankings while our guild carries a buyer on H. Garrosh.


To each their own though.

I can see it working for Garrosh because you would get to KS+BF the adds, but other than that, the opener is not the credit for a rank imo.

[Kaluna]

- Once you get more haste, delaying Killing Spree becomes less and less effective. At most I'd just push it below 40-50 energy.

I have some doubts now about Killing Spree and Adrerush.
What you mean about not delaying with more haste ?
Maybe I'm wrong but I often delay KS to get it in higher insight because AR+SB will reset it anyway. Is there a way to get more KS? I can't see if poping KS on CD is a gain at some point since it will be off cooldown after every single AR. I'll appreciate your expertise on this.

Moreover, sometimes I'm at 4CP and 6-7 seconds CD on AR+SB (green insight).
I stack my CP with anticipation and wait for AR to get off CD naturally, is that good or should I try to get AR asap even if it means 'losing CP reduction cd' ?

[Dextar]

Why SS before AR+SB? They aren't on the GCD so you can just macro a SS into it and get an extra combo point.

You could, I spam so much that it doesn't make a difference to me but would probably help others who don't spam like a crazy maniac. Good suggestion!

I can see it working for Garrosh because you would get to KS+BF the adds, but other than that, the opener is not the credit for a rank imo.

If you do it fast enough, your KS is ending as the adds are reaching Garrosh. You really don't want to use it when the adds are at Garrosh because of desecrated weapon placement. It's a compounding factor but that's why I said to each their own. =)

[Artorius]

I have some doubts now about Killing Spree and Adrerush.
What you mean about not delaying with more haste ?
Maybe I'm wrong but I often delay KS to get it in higher insight because AR+SB will reset it anyway. Is there a way to get more KS? I can't see if poping KS on CD is a gain at some point since it will be off cooldown after every single AR. I'll appreciate your expertise on this.

Moreover, sometimes I'm at 4CP and 6-7 seconds CD on AR+SB (green insight).
I stack my CP with anticipation and wait for AR to get off CD naturally, is that good or should I try to get AR asap even if it means 'losing CP reduction cd' ?

Depending on your gear, using ks inside ar/sb is a gain. That's how you get more cds.
It's all about viewing what will happen next before it's too late, sometimes you'll want to wait until moderate while building anticipation and sometimes you would have done better if eviscered before the point of losing rb seconds.
What I mean is, if you could see that you would be in that situation, you could have used evis at 2 or 3 to put the AR at 1s cd, SS to dump energy in that 1s and then continued normally with AR up...

Combat is a roller coaster, you go up and down and the speed you achieve at a point is the result of a drop before, any decision you do will change how the next moment will be.


You don't play the exact moment, you need to be playing the entire fight since the opener. But relax, rvs cps and energy procs make it impossible to predict everything.

[Xaide]

If you do it fast enough, your KS is ending as the adds are reaching Garrosh. You really don't want to use it when the adds are at Garrosh because of desecrated weapon placement. It's a compounding factor but that's why I said to each their own. =)

Are you getting into Shallow Insight before you do this?

Edit: No, you aren't. You are using Killing Spree after TotT is going off (or should be going off) but before Shallow Insight. You should have the rogue you are trading tricks with tricks you on pull. TofT > Pot > Stealth > Opener. Tanks don't need it on farm. That way you can get your KS + TofT and it is already on cooldown ready to come back up after your Ambush > SnD. So Ambush > SnD > KS > RvS > AR/SB.