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  1. #1
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    Frost Mages on Beta - Rotation/Talent use etc

    Hey All,

    So I was doing the raid testing yesterday and have been mainly playing frost on the Beta. I've been trying to keep up with all of the WoD discussion but just wanted to post here with how I have been playing and wether or not people have any other tid-bits they would add/remove.

    For Talents, yesterday I ran with: Blazing Speed, Ice Barrier, Ring of Frost, Greater Invis, Frost Bomb, Mirror Images and Prismatic Crystal. I had used IF until the nerfs hit it and the buff to MI is also looking very good.

    My opener consisted of:

    4 secs - Pre-Pot
    3 secs - Mirror Images
    2 secs - Frostbolt
    0 secs - Prismatic Crystal
    Frost Bomb on Crystal
    Frozen Orb and Icy Veins
    Spam Lances / FFB on Crystal

    I had not even realised until today that Water Jet was available on Welly so I didn't use it but I don't know if it is worth it during the opener as you will most likely be spamming lances onto the crystal with Frost Bomb up, it might be better to use it right after the crystal / ice lance spam is done, what do you guys think?

    I'm also unsure if popping Images when I do is a good idea as I am losing 3 secs of them and they hit pretty hard since the buff, It might be better to lose one global to gain back those 3 secs and pop them after pull.

    Once the opener is done, I am spamming my normal rotation just like current live, Frostbolt as filler, FFB when procs and Ice Lance after the FFBs. I have only being applying Frost Bomb when I have Ice Lance procs up as I can't see a value in having it up 100% of the time and it is a wasted cast if you get no IL procs during its duration.

    Having Crystal and Orb come off CD every minute seems very OP right now and especially with Images on a 2min CD, our burst every 2 mins is insane. I understand a tuning pass has to happen and this will change though.

    So what about you guys? What talents/rotations have you been using?

    The first test I did with a Level 100 PVE Premade (who had 4 Spirit pieces, wtf?) But the second test I did with a PVP toon in all out Multistrike gear which seemed to do significantly more damage.

  2. #2
    The Patient Abraxis's Avatar
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    I would delay Mirror Image and use them with Intproccs due to their dynamic scaling.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post
    I would delay Mirror Image and use them with Intproccs due to their dynamic scaling.
    Dynamic scaling is a good reason to not use them during the int procs, but before they proc, to not spend the GCD during them.

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    The Patient Abraxis's Avatar
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    For "on use" and "ICD" trinkets for sure, but for rppm proccs it isn't that easy.

    So, to not overcomplicate it. Use it, when u're expect, know or can use intproccs during their duration.

  5. #5
    The Patient Puuhis's Avatar
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    You should prepot as you start casting Frostbolt. Since Frozen orb has a moderate travel time and Crystal is off the GCD you should also follow up precast frostbolt with frozen orb and then prismatic crystal+frost bomb and ice lance spam. You should also pool FFB's and ice lances for frost bomb+water jet combo.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abraxis View Post
    For "on use" and "ICD" trinkets for sure, but for rppm proccs it isn't that easy.

    So, to not overcomplicate it. Use it, when u're expect, know or can use intproccs during their duration.
    40s duration - there is a big chance that your trinkets will proc in that time

    prepot -> precast frostbolt -> MI -> cast FBs to get some procs -> IV (with first trinket proc) -> Orb -> Crystal -> Frost Bomb -> IL>FFB>FB to Crystal -> normal rotation

    IV on first trinket proc, because IV has long enough duration (pretty big chance we will have 2nd trinket in a few moments)
    MI after precasted FB, because they have 40s duration and all your procs and BL will be in this time window - you don't want to waste any GCD during trinket procs

    ofc there are few adjustments depending on procs, but so far i have good results with this opener

    EDIT: omg i forgot Frost bomb
    Last edited by mmocec88429560; 2014-07-31 at 06:21 AM.

  7. #7
    What will really be interesting will be when we have 4 set. I wonder if we will blizzard on single target to reduce frozen orb cooldown to get 10 seconds of free fof? Essentially forgoe frostbolt altogether. Would be a fun twist for a patch cycle

  8. #8
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    For Talents, yesterday I ran with: Blazing Speed, Ice Barrier, Ring of Frost, Greater Invis, Frost Bomb, Mirror Images and Prismatic Crystal. I had used IF until the nerfs hit it and the buff to MI is also looking very good

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Txiv View Post
    What will really be interesting will be when we have 4 set. I wonder if we will blizzard on single target to reduce frozen orb cooldown to get 10 seconds of free fof? Essentially forgoe frostbolt altogether. Would be a fun twist for a patch cycle
    A blizzard on single target barely reduces the cooldown at all, I severely doubt this will ever be an increase.

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    High Overlord Skyefire's Avatar
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    I know number tuning hasn't been done yet and it's a bit hard to see which talents perform better but for the sake of raid testing I was wondering what people were finding were the best combinations of talents to use.

    Prismatic Crystal makes dps look great because it skada doesn't track it properly, but I find it really awkward to use on some fights, particularly when I was testing Twin Ogron on the strat we used. I've taken to using Unstable Magic because it's something I don't even have to worry about, ditto with Incanter's Flow. Then again I am using the default Blizz UI without any addon customisation yet so it's a bit more difficult to manage then it would be if I bothered to set it up properly.

    Any thoughts?
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyefire View Post
    I know number tuning hasn't been done yet and it's a bit hard to see which talents perform better but for the sake of raid testing I was wondering what people were finding were the best combinations of talents to use.

    Prismatic Crystal makes dps look great because it skada doesn't track it properly, but I find it really awkward to use on some fights, particularly when I was testing Twin Ogron on the strat we used. I've taken to using Unstable Magic because it's something I don't even have to worry about, ditto with Incanter's Flow. Then again I am using the default Blizz UI without any addon customisation yet so it's a bit more difficult to manage then it would be if I bothered to set it up properly.

    Any thoughts?
    Frost Bomb + MI + PC is the best by far.

  12. #12
    High Overlord Skyefire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    Frost Bomb + MI + PC is the best by far.
    Sweet thankyou, I'll try it out on Flamebender tomorrow. Is Frost Bomb something you maintain close to 100% on or when you think you're going to get procs? bit unsure how to use it; it's been a loooong while since I've played Frost..
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    A blizzard on single target barely reduces the cooldown at all, I severely doubt this will ever be an increase.
    But it gives fof procs itself and gets the frozen orb off cooldown faster. I would try it before you write it off

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyefire View Post
    Sweet thankyou, I'll try it out on Flamebender tomorrow. Is Frost Bomb something you maintain close to 100% on or when you think you're going to get procs? bit unsure how to use it; it's been a loooong while since I've played Frost..
    Definitely not 100% uptime; you want to be maximizing FoF casts whilst the bomb is active. I've been playing about with finding the "best" times to cast a frost bomb but there's not really much talk going on about it - I'm sure we will get to a proper theory though.

    Whilst using IF (pre nerf) I was experimenting with trying to just cast the bomb on the 1 stack whilst dumping FoFs and BFs around 4-5-5-4. I feel like without that talent, careful proc usage loses some value but there are still situations where you are able to predict an influx of FoF procs and wanting to get Bomb out before then. Such as holding 2 FoF with Water Jet coming off CD, you'd definitely want to Bomb here, dump, then go into water jet rotation.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Skyefire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    Definitely not 100% uptime; you want to be maximizing FoF casts whilst the bomb is active. I've been playing about with finding the "best" times to cast a frost bomb but there's not really much talk going on about it - I'm sure we will get to a proper theory though.

    Whilst using IF (pre nerf) I was experimenting with trying to just cast the bomb on the 1 stack whilst dumping FoFs and BFs around 4-5-5-4. I feel like without that talent, careful proc usage loses some value but there are still situations where you are able to predict an influx of FoF procs and wanting to get Bomb out before then. Such as holding 2 FoF with Water Jet coming off CD, you'd definitely want to Bomb here, dump, then go into water jet rotation.
    If I can ask - what's the Water Jet rotation? I haven't really done as much dummy testing on beta as I'd like so I don't really know much about frost at all atm. I find that there's a delay between when you press Water Jet and when the ele actually casts it, so I just tend to get like halfway through a Frostbolt cast > water jet > frostbolt and then generally nets me 2 FoF. Is there a better way to do it?

    With regards to Frost Bomb - obviously it's not ideal to use it if you have no FoF, but is the cast of bomb worth it say if you cast 1 Ice Lance during its duration? 2? Just on Flamebender I was finding that I generally got at least 1-2 FoF off while each bomb was active. Looking at the log of our kill I'm estimating that I had about a 70% uptime (WCL doesn't show Frost Bomb uptimes yet) which I know isn't great but I haven't configured my UI at all yet so it's a bit crappy.

    TL;DR: How many Ice Lances do you think you'd have to cast over the duration of a Frost Bomb to make it worth the cast?
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  16. #16
    One frost bomb explosion does more damage than a frostbolt cast right now. So that means that even if you only hit one proc during the Frost Bomb duration, it was worth applying the bomb over doing a frostbolt instead.

    We do however want to minimize the frost bombs we cast in comparison to FoF spent. In short, it's better to get 7 FoF during one Bomb than 5 in one 2 in another, as a loose example.

    Water Jet rotation is to have frost bomb active and dump FoF before the CD is up, then to cast frostbolt and WJ halfway through. I go Frostbolt>Frostbolt>FFB which is an easy 3, then you can dump immediately. Sometimes it so happens that you have 2x BF procs, and it's actually possible to get 3 FoF, use one, and get another, in the water jet window. But that doesn't happen always.

  17. #17
    High Overlord Skyefire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    We do however want to minimize the frost bombs we cast in comparison to FoF spent. In short, it's better to get 7 FoF during one Bomb than 5 in one 2 in another, as a loose example.
    Yeah, I understand that. I just wonder if that means that you shouldn't maintain a high/100% uptime on Frost Bomb. I don't know what the proc chance is of FoF but I feel like it's reasonable to expect that you'd get at least 1 FoF proc during that time - barring heavy extended period of movement or impending add spawn etc.

    Water Jet rotation is to have frost bomb active and dump FoF before the CD is up, then to cast frostbolt and WJ halfway through. I go Frostbolt>Frostbolt>FFB which is an easy 3, then you can dump immediately. Sometimes it so happens that you have 2x BF procs, and it's actually possible to get 3 FoF, use one, and get another, in the water jet window. But that doesn't happen always.
    Cool, thanks. Why use FFB as the last in the Water Jet rotation? (I presume you are referring to a hardcast FFB?). I was using a BF proc if I had it up during Water Jet - is it okay to use it there to generate a FoF charge?
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  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Skyefire View Post
    Yeah, I understand that. I just wonder if that means that you shouldn't maintain a high/100% uptime on Frost Bomb. I don't know what the proc chance is of FoF but I feel like it's reasonable to expect that you'd get at least 1 FoF proc during that time - barring heavy extended period of movement or impending add spawn etc.
    Why would you keep a 100% uptime and sometimes only fire off one ice lance, when you could drop your uptime and time your proc uses to get 3+ on it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skyefire View Post
    Cool, thanks. Why use FFB as the last in the Water Jet rotation? (I presume you are referring to a hardcast FFB?). I was using a BF proc if I had it up during Water Jet - is it okay to use it there to generate a FoF charge?

    No, i mean Brain Freeze, because it's instant and means you can generate the procs faster. 3 hardcasted frostbolts seems too hard/impossible to get into a water jet.

  19. #19
    High Overlord Skyefire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by durrtygoodz View Post
    Why would you keep a 100% uptime and sometimes only fire off one ice lance, when you could drop your uptime and time your proc uses to get 3+ on it?
    I have no idea, that's why I'm asking. The CD on Water Jet is 24s which is a decent amount of time, so I guess I'm asking if it's better to just hold all your FoF procs until you get 3 (or are just about to) and only then would you cast Frost Bomb?

    With regards to Water Jet, assuming you cast it halfway through a Frostbolt so that by the time it lands Water Jet will just have started, isn't it possible to get an additional 2 hardcast frostbolts into the water jet? Thus making the total number of Frostbolts 3. My current Frostbolt takes 1.5sec to cast so it looks like it's feasible, if timed right.

    Edit: Actually, wait I think I understood what you just meant. So essentially it's Frostbolt (halfway thru) > Water Jet > Frostbolt > Frostbolt > BF proc if avail. Sorry, thought you were saying 3 frostbolts including the one cast before the Water Jet.

    Someone was saying in another thread that with Thermal Void it's possibly to have permanent Icy Veins. Is it really not better than PC, or is the burst potential of PC just too good? I like it, but I hate targeting reticule mechanics and it's really frustrating when the boss gets moved.
    Last edited by Skyefire; 2014-08-01 at 01:09 AM.
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  20. #20
    pretty sure he means Frostbolt (halfway thru) > Water Jet > Frostbolt > BF which should net 3 FOF procs

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