Ghostcrawler on why WoW became a game for casuals

[Vash The Stampede]

Based on what, the sonic boom of failure created when Wildstar flopped? I love this fucking fantasy that Blizzard would make more money if only they didn't cater to casuals so hard, and how desperately people like you cling to it. Reality check: There have now been at least two attempts at a "hardcore MMO" and both turned out to be horrible trainwrecks.

Most modern MMO's fail because they spend too much time copying WoW. Every company wants to suck on that monthly subscription tit. MMO's don't fail because of casual or hardware content, but because they have too many similarities to WoW. At some point you have to ask, why play a WoW clone when you could play WoW? It's gotten to the point that MMO's in general need to be rebuilt, and companies need to stop looking at WoW for inspiration. Cause WoW's design is terrible in general, which is why anyone who copies it gets a terrible game. The only reason why WoW does so well is that it lives off it's name. People remember Vanilla, TBC, and WOTLK, which are totally different games compared to modern WoW.

Though yes, casualizing games would ruin them. In many ways things like grinding and killing mobs are very casual like in MMO's, which is getting boring. Let me know when Wildstar has LFR in it and that's when the game will be for sale for $1.

[Deleted]

In a multiplayer game it's nearly impossible to please a casual gamer that rage quits. If it's not from the games content then the players will do it. And no, they can't co-exist. Games are competitive in nature, so it's always going to be hard to have a challenging game without making someone feel inadequate as a player. Of course Blizzards approach to this is to have a lot of different content to please both sides, which sorta makes sense until the casuals want the content they paid for. Which takes the competitiveness out of the game when you just literally hand anyone epics.

Except blizzard don't do that, what they do is make tiered content so everyone has something to do and some way to advance.

Content like...

Pokemon
Market house
farming
daily quests
Dungeons
Scenarios
Dark Moon faire

These are all what I consider to be casual content, which is fine for those that want it.

Which is 90% of the playerbase.

But the casuals weren't happy so LFR was born!

This isn't true. Blizzard have said that they either made LFR or stop making raids entirely - the cost of raids was in no way justifiable to their finance team given how few people raided.

They wanted it all and couldn't be bothered with silly things like skill. While the ilvl of the gear is lower, it's the same looking gear with recoloring. It's not enough to reward players who actual take the time to learn the games mechanics. A Heroic or soon to be Mythic raider doesn't stand out over LFR players. Anytime you have segregation of have and have not, the have not's will wants it. You could argue that 90% of the players are not experiencing the most important content in the game, but proper raiding is what this game was built on. Whatever LFR is, it's not a raid. Oddly though you don't see any casual version of PvP, but that's because you can't. Not unless Warlocks are considered the casual way of doing PvP in Blizzards design.

The game wasn't built on raiding. Raidng until LFR was a niche activity and utterly irrelevent to most players.

As is well known, most players didn't even have a max level toon untiol the end of wrath. The game was built on "pick up 15 boar assholes" questing and world exporation.

Also not many people would sit down and consider themselves casual or hardware. You'd be lucky if they consider themselves a gamer at all. They play a game for fun, but casual gaming is on the way out. Just ask Nintendo when the Wii fell apart around 2009ish. They can't get anyone to buy a Wii U. Is it ever a wonder why WoW's subscriptions are falling and not climbing as the game becomes more and more casual?

The game hasn't become more casual, it's always been casual. What has actually happened is that the top tier raiding has become more and more hardcore to the point where it's almost completely impossible for a new player to take part in it.

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

Yeah. Or you know, like he said, he just fancied a change of pace after 8 years at the same job. Like normal people would.

I think it's a combination of GC being, at heart, a dick, and being better matched with a game where almost all the players are, at heart, dicks.

[Vash The Stampede]

Except blizzard don't do that, what they do is make tiered content so everyone has something to do and some way to advance.

I don't think you can advance in the game with Pokemon or Dark Moon Faire.

Which is 90% of the playerbase.

It's always been 90% of the playerbase. Nothing new since Vanilla.

This isn't true. Blizzard have said that they either made LFR or stop making raids entirely - the cost of raids was in no way justifiable to their finance team given how few people raided.

If Blizzard stopped making raids then WoW would literally have no point in existing.

The game wasn't built on raiding. Raidng until LFR was a niche activity and utterly irrelevent to most players.

So you consider end game content to be what? Dungeons?

The game hasn't become more casual, it's always been casual. What has actually happened is that the top tier raiding has become more and more hardcore to the point where it's almost completely impossible for a new player to take part in it.

You can't change history. It's certainly became casual as hell. Up until WOTLK the game had only 1 difficulty for raids, which was hard. Today you have LFR, Flex, Normal, Heroic.

[Deleted]

I think it's a combination of GC being, at heart, a dick

I see. You know him personally then?
I have a hard time telling how GC is, at heart - just by reading posts/comments he made in his professional capacity as a systems team lead. As far as I can remember they were reasonably factual and to the point. Can't say I agreed with all of them, but calling a guy a dick just based on that seems a bit too passive aggressive to me. Sorry.

When it comes to calling LoL players dicks, I wouldn't know, I don'r really play LoL. My guess is that lot of the players are very young and unable to communicate properly.

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

calling a guy a dick just based on that seems a bit too passive aggressive to me. Sorry.

I don't think you know what "passive aggressive" means.

There are gobs of video interviews with him by the way.

[Deleted]

I don't think you know what "passive aggressive" means.

There are gobs of video interviews with him by the way.

Ah, but I do know what it means - and yes, I've seen video interviews and listened to podcasts (and probably some other media as well) as well. I fail to see how that is relevant or how that would change the point of the argument?

[Didacticus Syntacticus]

Ah, but I do know what it means - and yes, I've seen video interviews and listened to podcasts (and probably some other media as well) are well. I fail to see how that is relevant?

If you know what words mean but use them in ways that indicate that you don't know what they mean, then there is some other problem I guess.

You can white knight GC all you want but he doesn't need your help or want it, and you won't get bonus points for sucking his jagon. When it comes down to it, dude's just an egotistical dick who doesn't give a shit about you or (especially) your grandmother. He sure does like his leetoid games though.

[Deleted]

If you know what words mean but use them in ways that indicate that you don't know what they mean, then there is some other problem I guess.

You can white knight GC all you want but he doesn't need your help or want it, and you won't get bonus points for sucking his jagon. When it comes down to it, dude's just an egotistical dick who doesn't give a shit about you or (especially) your grandmother. He sure does like his leetoid games though.

Talking about passive aggressive and abrasive behaviour..
Feel free the seethe in your anger, I see arguing with you would be rather pointless.

[Deleted]

The dude likes his creative freedom and enjoys working that way. That being said, he doesn't seem to miss an opportunity to fire a few shots Blizzard's way.

One thing is certain- change is absolutely necessary if you want to stay relevant and actually make some money. Name one game that's 5+ years old and still makes enough money to keep up a company and the player base is happy enough to play it the way it always was.

How is half life 2 doing 10 years after release? Is the company still selling copies at a profitable rate and a lot of the fanbase still playing?

[Deleted]

Ghostcrawler made this game for casuals by dumbing it down. At the state wow is you do not need any skill or experience or even gear. Being in Wpvp guild we watched from sides what happen to PvE and at the beginning were not effect at all. People were rewarded by their achievements in game (both PvP and PvE) but this have been removed over time to the point where they need to reverse engineer. I never play LoL but if he involved in any development, then from WoW pov might increase their amount of subscribers.

[Daffan]

Based on what, the sonic boom of failure created when Wildstar flopped? I love this fucking fantasy that Blizzard would make more money if only they didn't cater to casuals so hard, and how desperately people like you cling to it. Reality check: There have now been at least two attempts at a "hardcore MMO" and both turned out to be horrible trainwrecks.

Wildstar is new, unfounded and had weird attunements. Lets not forget this is World of Warcraft in 2014 - every problem that plagued BC is gone now (poaching from guilds to get members for T5 and T6) We have cross realm, coalesced, battlegroups, OQ and Raid Searcher. Right now they've gone too far. Just like when they introduced LFG system they nerfed everything at the same time (LFG is good system, nerfing 5 mans was not).

Also what was the second hardcore MMO? - And it's not really catering to casuals what i suggested - it's literally not making their content wasted. It takes them 6 months to make a raid, two tiers is 12 months, you skip 12 months of content in 1 day and than complain there is nothing to do so you quit the game and play other stuff.

>and how desperately people like you cling to it

Yeah no, i'm just pointing out the obvious. Blizzard cant craft enough content fast enough due to people skipping everything without even finishing it.

[Deleted]

Ghostcrawler made this game for casuals by dumbing it down. At the state wow is you do not need any skill or experience or even gear.

Please at least try to skim through the thread before posting. The same argument has been posted and refuted many times in the past pages.
WoW was made for casual wide audience appeal - It didn't turn casual over night or because one dev wished so.
It is and has always been their design philosophy, they are constantly trying to lower the threshold of entry and smooth the curves of progression.

I think they've done a really good job at it. The high-end is very competitive and "hardcore". The low-end is very approachable. The bits in the middle have been getting smoother. A lot of work still remains, but overall it's not a bad 10year run.

[Axaron]

He should probably stop getting drunk and posting on forums, he's really not doing anyone any favors at this point, even Riot. Hell, especially Riot.

[Deleted]

I don't think you can advance in the game with Pokemon or Dark Moon Faire.

The battle pets have the most levelling content out of all of wow. DMF has rep to grind, games to master, pets to collect etc - i.e. you are wrong.

It's always been 90% of the playerbase. Nothing new since Vanilla.

Right, so why are you claiming wows success is due to raiding?

If Blizzard stopped making raids then WoW would literally have no point in existing.

If most people don't raid and never did, then this has to be wrong.

So you consider end game content to be what? Dungeons?

Apparently it's questing and pvp for most players, wuit battle pets and LFR just after that. Non LFR Raiding is somewhere below that.

You can't change history. It's certainly became casual as hell. Up until WOTLK the game had only 1 difficulty for raids, which was hard. Today you have LFR, Flex, Normal, Heroic.

Raiding is irrelevent to wows success. They only made more casual versions of raids because it was either make casual versions or stop making raids completely.

Even normal mode raids in todays wow are much much harder than the hardest content pre LK, btw.

The other way to look at your argument is this - as raiding has gotten more and more exclusive, wows sub numbers have declined.

[Deleted]

If most people don't raid and never did, then this has to be wrong.

That's a ridiculously naive, simplistic and flawed view. If the game hadn't had raids, raiders and raiding guilds, it would've been dull and boring. If they'd never put in anything else than pvp, quests and 5 mans, the game would've died out before TBC. More diverse game is more exciting to everyone, even if you don't personally take part in every possible aspect of it.

They only made more casual versions of raids because it was either make casual versions or stop making raids completely.

No, they made casual versions of raids so they could significantly cut back on content creation and put more money in the pockets of the owners. They had no problem creating raids in vanilla and TBC, and there are games with significantly less players than WoW managing to put out raid content, it's ridiculous to suggest Blizzard would somehow have to stop making raids completely.

[Tenjen]

GC is complaining about a dumbed down game he dumbed down?

That's level 100 irony right there.

Lets look at the actual supposed quote

"It's really refreshing to work on a game where I don't have to worry whether someone's grandmother can pick it up or not."

He's not complaining about a "dumbed down game he dumbed down", he's talking about not having to worry as much about having to cater to casual customer markets and change the game to their whims or create multiple sections of the game (and somehow balance them together) for many types of players because of multiple market demand.

[Deleted]

No, they made casual versions of raids so they could significantly cut back on content creation and put more money in the pockets of the owners. They had no problem creating raids in vanilla and TBC, and there are games with significantly less players than WoW managing to put out raid content, it's ridiculous to suggest Blizzard would somehow have to stop making raids completely.

Of course.

They probably looked at the numbers, where the curve of players who continue to raiding and players who unsub/stop playeing because there's "nothing to do" and figured out that giving the players who quit a smoother introduction curve to raiding would make a lot of sense for player retention. And thus LFR (and later Flex) were born.

Now, putting a lot of dev resources to something that only a fraction of players ever do seriously doesn't hurt their bottom line anymore. Had they not done that, I would guess they would have had hard time motivating the ROI costs for raids - probably resulting in less raids (and perhaps smaller raids). I don't think giving up making raids would have ever been an option, but redirecting resources elsewhere would have been a constant battle. This way they can concentrate on producing high quality raids - and it makes good business sense at the same time (and they can shake the ROI demanding beancounters off their backs and concentrate on the game production).

So you could actually tip over the popular argument and say that LFR and Flex catered to the hardcore players way more than it ever did to casuals.

[Vash The Stampede]

The battle pets have the most levelling content out of all of wow. DMF has rep to grind, games to master, pets to collect etc - i.e. you are wrong.

If you give a crap about battle pets then sure. But I don't cause it doesn't effect my ability to kill a dragon.

Right, so why are you claiming wows success is due to raiding?

Cause most people strive to raid. You'd be surprised how many don't actually beat the games they buy. It's not just related to WoW. There's a lot of people who buy Steam games they haven't even touched yet. Maybe the game wasn't their cup of tea? Maybe they got into the game cause a friend forced them? Otherwise if you really want to play WoW then you probably wanted to raid, but something prevented you from doing so.

If most people don't raid and never did, then this has to be wrong.

LFR exists so it means people did want to raid.

Apparently it's questing and pvp for most players, wuit battle pets and LFR just after that. Non LFR Raiding is somewhere below that.

You assume pet battles are for everyone, but it's like archaeology. Sure it's there but nobody wants to look at it. PvP can really piss off some people because they hate losing to other players. Questing is something everyone has to do to level, unless you pay the $60 to skip it. You can LFR in one day without hands so...

Raiding is real end game.

Even normal mode raids in todays wow are much much harder than the hardest content pre LK, btw.

Whatever makes you sleep at night.

The other way to look at your argument is this - as raiding has gotten more and more exclusive, wows sub numbers have declined.

But raiding hasn't become more exclusive now has it? After WOTLK raiding became a lot more accessible, and the subs just continue to drop. Remember the concept of Heroic raids was introduced mid WOTLK, but it was done successfully cause of how the mechanic was activated. In Cata you activate Heroic modes through a menu. But the idea was that normal was easier than Heroic. This was due to the mess of Naxxramas being too herp derp easy.

[Deleted]

They probably looked at the numbers, where the curve of players who continue to raiding and players who unsub/stop playeing because there's "nothing to do" and figured out that giving the players who quit a smoother introduction curve to raiding would make a lot of sense for player retention. And thus LFR (and later Flex) were born.

And the ATVI quarterly reports show just how well that idea is working out for them.

Now, putting a lot of dev resources to something that only a fraction of players ever do seriously doesn't hurt their bottom line anymore. Had they not done that, I would guess they would have had hard time motivating the ROI costs for raids - probably resulting in less raids (and perhaps smaller raids). I don't think giving up making raids would have ever been an option, but redirecting resources elsewhere would have been a constant battle. This way they can concentrate on producing high quality raids - and it makes good business sense at the same time (and they can shake the ROI demanding beancounters off their backs and concentrate on the game production).

But all the raid content is basically wasted. I got back recently to try MoP after quitting in Cata. I went from level 1 to having done all MoP raids in less than a month. Then quit because the game was dull. It would've been better for me if all MoP contained was one tier like Kara, and a bunch of real heroics like TBC. I saw all the content, but the gaming experience was disastrously bad. The fundamental game mechanics and end game model is just completely broken at the moment.