Ghostcrawler on why WoW became a game for casuals

[Dormie]

So... you're happy?

So happy I have nothing to do!

Yet another witty and insightful Brandon138 post where he demonstrates his keen and intimate knowledge of the MMO industry. I just can't understand why Blizzard isn't already turning WoW upside down to conform with his wishes.

I liked the part where you went from "Subscribers declined when the game was streamlined!" right to "Subscribers aren't an argument for anything!" and then pretended this wasn't any sort of contradiction because you used the words "I mean really" in a sentence. That was really some next-level stupid shit.

You obviously know something about next-level stupid shit.
Seriously lol, stop. You look like a fool.

Are you going to try to claim they're not? Please do. Please. That would be a lot of fun.

Not in the way people think of them. Casuals don't all want the same things. All casual means is someone who plays casually, any other connotation is your own assumption about them.
I like how you talk like you've made a single point.

[Zagnut]

You obviously know something about next-level stupid shit.
Seriously lol, stop. You look like a fool.

Forget all this WoW crap, what I want to know is how you think the words "I mean really" at the beginning of a sentence modify it's meaning. I am absolutely looking forward to hearing that. That shit was fucking HILARIOUS.

[Dormie]

Forget all this WoW crap, what I want to know is how you think the words "I mean really" at the beginning of a sentence modify it's meaning. I am absolutely looking forward to hearing that. That shit was fucking HILARIOUS.

Not that I'm surprised, but apparently you've never talked to anyone in person. Or else you may see how the vernacular gives a certain meaning.
'I mean really'=In all honestly. After thinking about it. Truthfully.
Take your pick.
Or keep acting dumb and looking like I fool. Whichever lets you distract from not having an argument.

[lazypeon100]

I truly do not think he was dissing on WoW through his statements.

I think what a lot of people are misunderstanding is that accessibility is not related to the difficulty of a game. I believe WoW is much more accessible than LoL, but that doesn't necessarily make one more difficult than the other.

I'm also confused by the notion that people are bashing on LoL's complexity (or lack there of). Just because something is simple doesn't make it a bad game, I personally believe both LoL and WoW to be simple games to learn and play, yet more complicated to master. Simplicity also can make for a better game as well IMO. Chess is an incredibly simple game, and I cannot fathom it ever being changed for more complexity. Sometimes something being simple adds its own complexity as far as mastering it goes.

[Zagnut]

'I mean really'=In all honestly. After thinking about it. Truthfully.

In other words you started out arguing that subscriber decline was due to particular gameplay changes that you didn't like, and then three posts later after I'd pointed how full of shit you were, you just coincidentally happened to completely change your mind.

And this is what winning an argument looks like to you.

Uh huh.

[Dormie]

In other words you started out arguing that subscriber decline was due to particular gameplay changes, and then three posts later after I'd pointed how full of shit you were, you just coincidentally happened to completely change your mind.

And this is what winning an argument looks like to you.

Uh huh.

I didn't change my mind. I was stating that we can't be sure.
Like I said. Keep being foolish. I'm starting to see why you need faceroll content.

[Zagnut]

Actually it [subscriber decline] began as soon as it went streamlined and watered down. First with LFG and then Cata did it in. LFG was literally the benchmark where the games philosophy switched.

30 minutes later after hearing a bunch of stuff he apparently didn't know about when subscriber decline actually began...

I mean really, subs are hardly an argument for either side.

http://cdn.gifbay.com/2013/04/stop_h...ixed-43356.gif

Infracted. Removed [IMG] coding.

[Vulcanasm]

Exactly. I never once heard anyone complain about not seeing more end game raids in BC. I never got past SSC and I didn't mind, at least I had something to work towards.

You obviously didn't know any Paladins, Druids, or Mages. What was the phrase ... "got Sunwelled"?

You know what, I bet your account was created after Patch 3.0. Your comment is the dumbest comparison I've seen in this entire thread. It's completely wrong. Everyone who couldn't see endgame content in BC got upset about it, and that meant some entire classes.

[Dormie]

Are you going to say anything or just keep looking retarded?

30 minutes later after hearing a bunch of stuff he apparently didn't know about when subscriber decline actually began...

I'm starting to see why you need faceroll content.

- - - Updated - - -

You obviously didn't know any Paladins, Druids, or Mages. What was the phrase ... "got Sunwelled"?

You know what, I bet your account was created after Patch 3.0. Your comment is the dumbest comparison I've seen in this entire thread. It's completely wrong. Everyone who couldn't see endgame content in BC got upset about it, and that meant some entire classes.

Actually I do remember Paladins being lackluster. That's a different discussion though. Those were class problems not progression problems. It's not wrong, btw. I've seen a lot of people both here, in game, and irl that feel the same way. Noone even gave it a second thought that they didn't reach BT or Sunwell because they understood it was their own doing.


I'm still waiting for this thread to get back on topic. You guys are straw manning the shit out of it. There is a lot more to this than raiding.

Keep it civil please.

[Vulcanasm]

Actually I do remember Paladins being lackluster. That's a different discussion though. Those were class problems not progression problems. It's not wrong, btw. I've seen a lot of people both here, in game, and irl that feel the same way. Noone even gave it a second thought that they didn't reach BT or Sunwell because they understood it was their own doing.

All hybrids were lackluster. Shamans were stacked for Bloodlust on Brutallus. That didn't make them "good". Not that you'd know who that was or why that was hard, since you joined this site in 2013.

[Dormie]

All hybrids were lackluster. Shamans were stacked for Bloodlust on Brutallus. That didn't make them "good". Not that you'd know who that was or why that was hard, since you joined this site in 2013.

lol....not sure if serious...
Sorry but you 2 are displaying a whole other level of stupid right now..
I mean that's not even an insult. You are, apparently, trying to insinuate something about my WoW experience based on when I joined this site. And he has made like 6 posts all attempting to make it look like I said something I didn't, all to replace his lack of an argument.
..I'm starting to see how you guys reach these off base conclusions about the game if that's how your reasoning works.

Infracted

[Vulcanasm]

lol....not sure if serious...

Sorry but you 2 are on a whole other level of stupid..

..I'm starting to see how you guys reach these off base conclusions about the game if that's how your reasoning works.

Join Date
Jul 2013

You have 2124 posts since your join date. Given that you're incapable of keeping quiet about even peripheral discussions like late BC raiding, there's no way you could've been involved with the game for too long before that. You're screeching and crying at the top of your little lungs about how a game you didn't play has gone too casual compared to a mythic past you didn't experience.

Well, I did. I was there. You know something?

Good.

I'm glad it's more casual now. I've been playing since April 2005, and those days weren't all that great.

I don't miss being expected to spend 20-30 hours a week farming consumables and world buffs for boss attempts. That's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of one's tolerance for pointless bullcrap.

I don't miss long attunement chains that took days to complete, and if you couldn't find competent PUGs, you were simply fucked.

I don't miss 8 hour BRD runs where everyone wanted both "Jail Break!" and MC attunement. I don't miss running around Desolace yelling "anyone seen Rexxar?" for literally hours.

I don't miss raids being so hardcore that DPS was a hard threshold and anyone whose gear/spec/class lay below it got sidelined if not gkicked.

I don't miss everything being an idiotic waste of days to weeks. Grind, grind, grind, grind. You think farming chromatic scales for your FR breastplate meant skill? Fucking no, it meant you were a rich brat with a trust fund who didn't have to work. Nobody else had the time for that horseshit.

I don't miss cat herding 40 mans where half the raid was AFK and the offtank was an Australian stoner on dialup and you couldn't tell if he was lagged out or just high and running in the whelps again. None of the fights took skill, they took either resist gear or convincing 38 idiots to stand in the right place while the 2 of you who'd figured it out already played poker on those mods they banned.

I don't miss heroics being a cockblock for everyone's alts.

So tell me, and give explicit examples, because so far all I see is someone who wasn't there pining for a game he never played.

What part of the "hardcore" atmosphere was good?

[lazypeon100]

I'm sorry... I'm kind of confused, what does this argument have to do with what GC said at this point? Just seems like pointless bickering.

[Dormie]

You have 2124 posts since your join date. Given that you're incapable of keeping quiet about even peripheral discussions like late BC raiding, there's no way you could've been involved with the game for too long before that. You're screeching and crying at the top of your little lungs about how a game you didn't play has gone too casual compared to a mythic past you didn't experience.

Well, I did. I was there. You know something?

Good.

I'm glad it's more casual now. I've been playing since April 2005, and those days weren't all that great.

I don't miss being expected to spend 20-30 hours a week farming consumables and world buffs for boss attempts. That's not a measure of skill, it's a measure of one's tolerance for pointless bullcrap.

I don't miss long attunement chains that took days to complete, and if you couldn't find competent PUGs, you were simply fucked.

I don't miss 8 hour BRD runs where everyone wanted both "Jail Break!" and MC attunement. I don't miss running around Desolace yelling "anyone seen Rexxar?" for literally hours.

I don't miss raids being so hardcore that DPS was a hard threshold and anyone whose gear/spec/class lay below it got sidelined if not gkicked.

I don't miss everything being an idiotic waste of days to weeks. Grind, grind, grind, grind. You think farming chromatic scales for your FR breastplate meant skill? Fucking no, it meant you were a rich brat with a trust fund who didn't have to work. Nobody else had the time for that horseshit.

I don't miss cat herding 40 mans where half the raid was AFK and the offtank was an Australian stoner on dialup and you couldn't tell if he was lagged out or just high and running in the whelps again. None of the fights took skill, they took either resist gear or convincing 38 idiots to stand in the right place while the 2 of you who'd figured it out already played poker on those mods they banned.

I don't miss heroics being a cockblock for everyone's alts.

So tell me, and give explicit examples, because so far all I see is someone who wasn't there pining for a game he never played.

What part of the "hardcore" atmosphere was good?

Yet you and millions of others played that game.
The work/reward part was good. WoW was never a game you played for just 30 minutes every few days. You should of quit if you hated all that, don't be angry that others didn't. If the game was always casual how could all those aspects have possibly been that bad(hint, they weren't).

And you know, there's a middle ground. And right now the game has moved to the complete opposite spectrum. I'm not arguing for a 'hardcore' game, and I'm not arguing against a 'casual' game. Both those things are just concepts and don't represent that actual game.

What I'm against is an entirely faceroll game(minus a tiny spectrum of raiding). It's not even about wanting a challenge, it's about the game being so damn easy that it's boring. It's leaning so far on the instant gratification side that it removes any motive to care. Resulting in a lot people not staying subbed for more than a couple months at a time.
Idk how you can possible hate all those things but like the current game. The current game is still just a grind but with less diversity. Your problem is that your focusing too much on the reward and not just playing the game.

[Vulcanasm]

I'm sorry... I'm kind of confused, what does this argument have to do with what GC said at this point? Just seems like pointless bickering.

My point is that without standard definitions of "casual" vs "hardcore", and without concrete examples of what was good about the game back then, this thread is useless.

Ghostcrawler raised one point that I think is very true: those terms mean very different things to different people. Arguing about a word that means one thing to one person and something different to another person isn't going to get us anywhere.

So, was the game good as a "hardcore" title? Ok, what was good about that?

[Dormie]

My point is that without standard definitions of "casual" vs "hardcore", and without concrete examples of what was good about the game back then, this thread is useless.

Ghostcrawler raised one point that I think is very true: those terms mean very different things to different people. Arguing about a word that means one thing to one person and something different to another person isn't going to get us anywhere.

So, was the game good as a "hardcore" title? Ok, what was good about that?

Hardcore and casual are both minorities really. There's casuals, hardcores, and a football field of different categories in between them. People need to stop talking like it's black and white.

I'm sorry... I'm kind of confused, what does this argument have to do with what GC said at this point? Just seems like pointless bickering.

Yea I said that like 4x but they'd rather talk about.....actually Idk what their point is. I think they don't actually have anything to say.

[Vulcanasm]

Yet you and millions of others played that game.
The work/reward part was good. WoW was never a game you played for just 30 minutes every few days. You should of quit if you hated all that, don't be angry that others didn't. If the game was always casual how could all those aspects have possibly been that bad(hint, they weren't).

And you know, there's a middle ground. And right now the game has moved to the complete opposite spectrum. I'm not arguing for a 'hardcore' game, and I'm not arguing against a 'casual' game. Both those things are just concepts and don't represent that actual game.

What I'm against is an entirely faceroll game(minus a tiny spectrum of raiding). It's not even about wanting a challenge, it's about the game being so damn easy that it's boring. It's leaning so far on the instant gratification side that it removes any motive to care. Resulting in a lot people not staying subbed for more than a couple months at a time.
Idk how you can possible hate all those things but like the current game. The current game is still just a grind but with less diversity. Your problem is that your focusing too much on the reward and not just playing the game.

Actually, I unsubscribed for a year starting late BC and ending early LK, because the "hardcore" attitudes of Sunwell were ridiculous.

The current game is much, much less of a grind than the old game was. That you think it's even comparable proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Let me guess, account created 2012 or later? Mmm, thought so.

[Dormie]

Actually, I unsubscribed for a year starting late BC and ending early LK, because the "hardcore" attitudes of Sunwell were ridiculous.

The current game is much, much less of a grind than the old game was. That you think it's even comparable proves you have no idea what you're talking about. Let me guess, account created 2012 or later? Mmm, thought so.

The whole game is a grind. Literally almost everything you do is a grind. You sound like your trying to convince yourself more than me.

This just sounds like another case of people playing the wrong game. Some people like farming for all those things. Not all the timesinks were balanced well, but that doesn't mean the current game is any more interesting.

[Vulcanasm]

The whole game is a grind. Literally almost everything you do is a grind. You sound like your trying to convince yourself more than me.

This just sounds like another case of people playing the wrong game. Some people like farming for all those things. Not all the timesinks were balanced well, but that doesn't mean the current game is any more interesting.

Nice backpedal. You've gone from "make it more hardcore, the current game sucks" to "make it more hardcore, the current game isn't any more interesting." Well, you've yet to state one concrete thing that you felt was better before MoP, or for that matter string two coherent thoughts together (except lots of flaming and edit-backpedals). I assume your train of thought is still boarding at the station. I'll just go to bed and wait for someone with an actual perspective to explain themselves.

[Deleted]

The very guy who spent the better part of his time on the dev team simplifying the game, because apparently a vocal minority on the forum is a valid source of feedback (here is a question Ghostcrawler: How about you guys actually listened to beta feedback ONCE instead?), is now standing "proud and tall" in the Riot dev team, giving WoW the boot for being "too casual".

I mean...seriously? You do realise that this true for LoL players as well (i wont go so far as calling a bunch of people who require automated systems, snitches and tribunals made up of snitches to keep their own behavior in check a "community"). Because lets face it: The VAST majority of LoL players ARE casuals: http://lolmatches.com/charts

So LoL is not developed for casuals? What's that supposed to mean GC? Your game is not developed for, or with a mindset towards the millions who pay for your food? Because...yes it is. If not, then explain why so many people of average-and-below skill are playing it. If anyone doubts that I am right, then kindly spectate "high-ELO" games. Its ridiculous what goes on. The people with above-average skill are MAYBE a few thousand, worldwide. Remind me GC, how many progress guilds are there in WoW? Exactly.

But yeah, I had a good laugh reading the stuff. Not at the expanse of WoW I might add.