Why can Hunters move, but Other Ranged Can't?

[Asiel]

I fail to see how having to cast steady shot is the trade off for movement. Destro has to cast incinerate to build Chaos Bolts, demo has to build demonic energy for its burst. The point is both that Hunters can move (something that becomes unfun, and detrimental for other ranged) and that moving doesn't severely impact Hunter DPS, where other ranged drop quite a bit.

Compare Chaos Bolt damage to Steady Shot / Cobra Shot. Both have cast times. If I'm correct, Chaos Bolt has a 3 second base and (I believe) Cobra Shot has a 2.5 second base. I say again: Compare the damage.

[Mehrunes]

Because hunters aren't casters; they are considered melee DPS, just at long range.

Mageys, Boombooms, Lockies, and Shammys are considered casters, and it is a little unfair (balance wise) for them to be able to deal devastating attacks from far away and keep moving. That's why 1. they have cast times and 2. they have to decide where they are going to stand. And stay there.

Which doesn't explain anything in relation to Hunters, which are also able to deal devastating attacks from far away, while having auto attack increase their numbers without any input from the player (basically free DPS) and do have cast times abilities (that don't break on movement) and don't have to decide where they are going to stand. How is that more fair (balance wise) than say a Mage being allowed to do the same?

Because thats what makes a hunter a hunter. Their defining trait is being able to do full damage while moving.

That is true only since MoP and "Hunters were Hunters" since vanilla. I think.

hunters arent casters and they rely on auto attacks(and mostly instant cast abilities) like melee dps

But they are still ranged. If anything, them having auto attacks should be a reason for ultra shit movement, as a penalty for being the only ranged class with "this here damage source of mine would be active the whole duration of the fight even if I had a stroke IRL 10 seconds after pull". It's especially significant part of total damage for BM with their ginormous pet damage.

To put this way: Blizzard doesn't divide the classes by the range they fight at but by their strategic playstyle: Fighters (insta-use abilities, but are weak) and casters (devastating attacks with a cast time). Hunters are fighters, and unlike mages and the other casters; they don't have particularly powerful attacks. Only when they use their attacks in rapid succession (aka bursts) do they deal large chunks of damage. Casters are heavily damaging, and likewise that's why they are forced to wait for their attacks and to stand still.

Frost Strike - 1M crits, Howling Blast - 900k crits, Soul Reaper - 1.2M, Death Coil - 900k, Rake - 1M, Thrash - 500k, Rip - 1.2M, Hammer of Wrath - 700k, Divine Storm - 700k, Dispatch - 750k, Envenom - 1M, Eviscerate - 1.5M, Ambush - 1M, Lava Lash - 1M, Stormblast - 1.35M, Slam - 750k, Execute - 1.7M, Raging Blow - 1.5M, Stormbolt - 3.3M, Dragon Roar - 900k, Chimera Shot - 750k.

All taken from top parses of each spec for Juggernaut 25 HC from warcraftlogs.

All instant casts.

The fuck are you smoking.

I suppose I see hunters as having their own disadvantages.

We typically have significantly less self-healing than casters, fewer defensive options, fewer mobility options besides simply running, and our DPS can be full-stopped with a disarm, something other ranged do not need to worry about.

Also, our abilities hit for significantly less than a single casted ability from a magic-damage ranged.

Your self healing is definitely not worse than Mage's. Deterrence is still a great defensive CDs. Simply running is a great mobility option for all the "move few yards" types of situations that happen all the time on all bosses and jump -> rotate in the air 180 degrees -> Disengage is viable mobility option.

Finally, ever heard of Silence? It does the exact same thing as Disarm does. Except for the part where Hunters can still use some abilities without a weapon, including their defensive abilities, while casters can't do jack shit during Silence effects, since they have only spells. Except maybe Mages, since other than giving physicals handicap all the time, Blizzard is also busy with making Mages special little snowflakes so their defensive abilities have the "usable while stunned/feared/polymorphed/AFK/dead" tidbit for no reason. Maybe "silenced" is there as well.

And only few classes have Disarms, mostly physical ones, while almost everyone has a Silence effect, including all the physicals, which completely shits on the balance of power between the two.

Disarm is gone in WoD, while Silence is not.

Then there's interrupt, which has no equivalent for physicals. And spell lockout, also has no equivalent.

Also, Explosive Shot can crit for over 450k, Aimed Shot for over 500k, Chimera Shot for over 750k, Kill Shot for 500k. Pretty much sure that Chimera Shot at least can do more damage than any cast time spell of Affliction Warlocks, Shadow Priests or Frost Mages. Shaow Priest's movement is non-existent. In WoD Affliction doesn't even have anything to cast on the move. Hunter mobility unchanged since MoP's iteration.

But it's weak compared towards a caster's devastating spell, which makes up for it.

Except for all the cases when it's not.

Exactly. In PvP, it's much easier to deal with steady incoming damage than sudden massive bursts.

Except Hunter is currently the king of burst in PvP, so your point is somewhat lost in the Twisting Nether.

Because Hunters are a fusion of Ranged and Melee gameplay, and considering their weaknesses (lack of strong cleave like most melee, and lack of multi-dotting like most casters) movement is the one thing they have going for them. If you're being out damaged by a hunter it isn't because they can move freely, it's because you're not planning your movement, which is a core part of caster gameplay, and one that is returning strongly in WoD.

Hunters are the exception to the rule, and it's fine. Casters should have never gotten the mobility most of them have to begin with.

BM has strong cleave (well, the pet does at least) and all three specs can multidot with Serpent Sting if they so desire for whatever reason (already auto applied by Surv's AoE).

But hunters are the only ranged deeps that use autoattacks.
Also it's just more logical mechanics wise. An agile(ity) hunter should be able to move.

How is having a free DPS source an excuse for better movement? If anything they should be "punished" for it by having some drawbacks. Yet, they have the best of two worlds in terms of mechanic differences between casters and physicals.

because you stand still for one second and cast out shit that crits for 3 mill. hunters and melee barely hit the 1m crit marker. it's balanced your spells hit harder to compensate for movement.

Only Destruction Warlocks can break 3M and it is nothing near "one second". Surprise surprise, Fury Warriors can hit 3M with an instant cast ability.

you contradict yourself here...
The raid encounters of today have a lot more movement requirements than the ones from the past. Giving classes mobility opens for possibilities on the development side to have much more interactive boss fights.
The old encounters were pretty much, find your safe spot, and never move anymore until the boss tumbles over dead.

And since caster mobility is gutted and Blizzard is unlikely to design the encounters around Hunters in WoD, they will be balanced around overall ranged mobility. Which means less demanding mobility-wise. Which means Hunter mobility staying the way it is will make their mobility abundant in comparison to content.

[Deleted]

From a rather logical standpoint, the minimum range never made sense. You can fire your weapon from 20 yrd as good as from 1 yrd distance.

From a fully logical standpoint guns and especially bows are extremely limited in usefulness in close quarter combat. You'd know this if you'd ever used one of them outside of a videogame.

[Paulosio]

Why ? Because they have been designed that way. They have also been balanced around it. Are they more powerful than other classes ? No. So what's the problem ?

Why can warlocks hit for over a million (probably a lot more) with a chaos bolt while my survival hunter can't even do a 400k attack ?

Unless you want all the classes to be identical in all but name the developers need to design them in a way so that they all have different capabilities. A hunters defining characteristic at the moment is that they can do most of their attacks while on the move (not all attacks if you consider marksman spec).

Once upon a time my hunter couldn't cast most of it's abilties on the move either... I even had an auto shot cast bar as you needed to stop moving for it to fire. Did I care ? No. That was how the class was. You got used to it. Your classes capabilities are balanced around a normal playing environment.

And btw most ranged classes do have things they can cast while moving even if it's just refreshing their dots. With snapshotting going away that's very viable.

[Ravex]

Try using a bow, crossbow, or gun while running around IRL; see how well it goes for you.

It should apply to Hunters, too. I see no point to them getting a pass on this just for being physical-based. They also can't be interrupted because they're not casting spells; they can't have a double standard of being ranged not melee AND being uninterruptable, mobile, non-casters.

- - - Updated - - -



Mages say hi for MoP.

BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHA

Really you just tried to compare RL to a video game?

Here let me try

Try casting magical spells in real life, see how that goes for you.

Some people.

[PickleballAce]

Saying Hunters have full mobility because they are "ranged melee" is just regurgitating trite Dev BS. This doesn't mean anything. At least the people justifying it because of focus starving are making a real attempt.

Ranged should all have a weak filler to use on the move that comes at the expense of an appropriate amount of DPS. Melee should all have a weak ranged ability that they can cast when they have range issues that comes at the expense of an appropriate amount of DPS. I'd be happy if melee mobility was buffed across the board to Warrior/Monk levels so they are FUN to play on ranged target switching fights, but this undoubtedly carries some PVP complications.

Unfortunately if they were serious about bringing ranged mobility down across the board, they'd be doing more than just nerfing Shaman and Warlocks into the ground. Some ranged specs have spammable fillers on the move, procs that make powerful spells instant, AND talents that improve their mobility. But Shaman are their perennial punching bag and they want to placate all those who QQd over Warlocks so they don't go to Wildstar. I think Boomkin and Spriest are the benchmark they should be aiming for.

There's still going to be a disparity, all they did was make three ranged specs shit for movement going into WoD and left the rest where they are.

[Jikate-Stormrage]

Qft.
The thing keeping hunters from being entirely retarded this addon them being not tuned as high as warlocks were and having no raid support.

Sorry can't take anyone serious who has complains pve wise as a warlock this addon.

You sir fail at Reading Comprehension. You took what I said, completely turned it around and made a post that 1) didn't address the OP and 2) proved your ignorance with such a fail response.

Just a follow up.

I'm not asking for hunters to lose their mobility. But I am saying reconsider the "filler" mobility of other classes (minus frost mage, they have amazing synergy and control). Design a mobile filler for Shadow Priests (god knows they deserve something, nerf their healing to compensate). If needs must, balance that fillers damage accordingly. I'm not concerned about high numbers. I am concerned about having two options: 1) Stand still and turret whilst being stabbed and otherwise shower raped or 2) Moving from said threat and doing absolutely NO damage at all besides a simple instant cast that does next to no/ moderate damage on a 6 sec CD.

Even in Vanilla there was stop gaps for this sort of issue. Yes rogues were powerful back then. But as a lock I could fear chain just as easily as they could stunlock. I could stand near 50/50 with most rogues. Today I couldn't with the same situation because I have Diminishing returns. I could fear him twice, third time he's on me and all I can do is pucker (if he's a good rogue). I would rather not rely on my enemy being a poor player. Also other melee have similar gap closers that they didn't have back then. Ret palis were a non issue. DK's (the anti-caster) didn't exist and Enh shammies were ROFL-two handing it. A warrior couldn't charge in combat.

The game has evolved and moved forward, resolving some issues for most all of the classes. However I believe that turning all casters into "get lucky and enter combat at range, turret for 2 secs (one cast) then run like hell waiting for another window to turret for 2 secs again" is a step back, regression to an age that you obviously thought was poor design since you changed it gradually over time to improve it.

[Fang7986]

Because Blizz said so

[Hitei]

Compare Chaos Bolt damage to Steady Shot / Cobra Shot. Both have cast times. If I'm correct, Chaos Bolt has a 3 second base and (I believe) Cobra Shot has a 2.5 second base. I say again: Compare the damage.

What on earth are you talking about?
I'm comparing Incinerate to Steady shot. They are both lower damage abilities to set up high output abilities. Incinerate does more damage, but Hunters also have Auto-attacks. I don't see how having something you have to use to build your high damage is an excuse for damage mobility.

[clevin]

Like I said, I don't play ranged or pay a ton of attention to hunter tuning. So if you would be kind enough to provide a source wherein Hunters do less damage than all casters while both are standing still, that would be very helpful.

No. Your laziness isn't my problem, nor is your lack of reading comprehension. Do the math - if hunters were doing the same DPS when standing still as most casters AND they could do that same DPS while moving when casters take a hit then hunters would be top dps... But they're not, they're in the middle.

Math. It's useful.

[Deleted]

Only Destruction Warlocks can break 3M and it is nothing near "one second". Surprise surprise, Fury Warriors can hit 3M with an instant cast ability.

We can? How? The hardest I've hit anything that didn't have an extra dmg recieved debuff is ~1.2M and that's execute with every buff i have and a pot aligning.

[Tyrgannus]

Melee is the wrong word, but physical isn't. Hunters are physical damage dealers. It is done to differentiate them from casters. As long as it's tuned properly that hunters and casters are both performing well (it'll never be exact, but viable is good), then adding flavor is a good thing

[Dasani]

BWAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHAHA

Really you just tried to compare RL to a video game?

Here let me try

Try casting magical spells in real life, see how that goes for you.

Some people.

I agree.

I think this guy will find it MUCH harder to cast spells (at all) than to shoot a target while running.

And actually shooting while running (as well as riding) is a skill that can be practiced and developed. if you never do it of course you'll suck at it, but with practice you can do it. Shooting between steps is no different than sniper training and shooting between breaths.

However never try backpedaling while shooting a shotgun or you're gonna have a bad time.

[Paulosio]

I agree.

I think this guy will find it MUCH harder to cast spells (at all) than to shoot a target while running.

And actually shooting while running (as well as riding) is a skill that can be practiced and developed. if you never do it of course you'll suck at it, but with practice you can do it. Shooting between steps is no different than sniper training and shooting between breaths.

However never try backpedaling while shooting a shotgun or you're gonna have a bad time.

If the mongols could shoot people while riding horses I think it's ok to have the ability to shoot while moving on foot in a fantasy game

[clevin]

Try using a bow, crossbow, or gun while running around IRL; see how well it goes for you.

You joke, yes? You can't fire a gun while moving?

[HardlyWaken]

Compare Chaos Bolt damage to Steady Shot / Cobra Shot. Both have cast times. If I'm correct, Chaos Bolt has a 3 second base and (I believe) Cobra Shot has a 2.5 second base. I say again: Compare the damage.

That's literally not the same though... Look at Damage done overall... Steady shot is a rebuilder after dumping focus for damage, hence it's cast. You could say the same about Immolate versus Chaos bolt... compare that damage... It just doesn't make sense to do that because it's irrelevant. The actual point is, overall, hunters can do very VERY competitive damage, even on patchwerk fights, and shine even more as necessary mobility increases.

[Strun]

Mages still have a mobile spell, scorch can be cast while on the move.

[HardlyWaken]

You joke, yes? You can't fire a gun while moving?

You ceratinly won't be executing any "steady shots" with a rifle while running. :P Or at the very least, they wouldn't be quite as accurate or effective.

[Asiel]

Frost Strike - 1M crits, Howling Blast - 900k crits, Soul Reaper - 1.2M, Death Coil - 900k, Rake - 1M, Thrash - 500k, Rip - 1.2M, Hammer of Wrath - 700k, Divine Storm - 700k, Dispatch - 750k, Envenom - 1M, Eviscerate - 1.5M, Ambush - 1M, Lava Lash - 1M, Stormblast - 1.35M, Slam - 750k, Execute - 1.7M, Raging Blow - 1.5M, Stormbolt - 3.3M, Dragon Roar - 900k, Chimera Shot - 750k.

All taken from top parses of each spec for Juggernaut 25 HC from warcraftlogs.

All instant casts.

The fuck are you smoking.

Only one of which is a hunter ability used by one spec on a cooldown. You aren't comparing the other specs to ranged. You're comparing hunters to them. Stay focused (LOLHUNTERPUN).

Also, Explosive Shot can crit for over 450k, Aimed Shot for over 500k, Chimera Shot for over 750k, Kill Shot for 500k. Pretty much sure that Chimera Shot at least can do more damage than any cast time spell of Affliction Warlocks, Shadow Priests or Frost Mages. Shaow Priest's movement is non-existent. In WoD Affliction doesn't even have anything to cast on the move. Hunter mobility unchanged since MoP's iteration.

You're comparing signature shots and Aimed Shot (one spell hunters have that's supposed to do large amounts of damage) to mostly DoT classes. If you take the raw damage of one cast of Maelific Grasp and added the extra damage DoTs receive from that cast, I'm sure you'd find them comparable to any hunter shot. Likewise goes for Devouring Plague (which, by the way, is also instant) and Mind Flay: Insanity. Frost mages aren't balanced around doing large damage with each individual attack much like hunters. They're built around burst windows.

[nekobaka]

Because thats what makes a hunter a hunter. Their defining trait is being able to do full damage while moving.

Except it isnt. Hunters used to have to shotweave while standing just to maximize their DPS. While moving a hunter could only pull off instants and had to stop to pull off an auto shot.

A hunters mobility was having some instants and on top of kiting abilities, but it was not about being able to do full damage while moving.