Why do poisons have a duration?

[ophion1990]

To still make them somewhat interactive I guess. Every spec has their set of poisons they rarely change, you'd just apply the poisons once and.... maybe change them when you respec or w/e. Same goes for all other buffs, everything could just be an aura but they want some interaction with them.

Edit: These nostalgic people though! I do however share fond memories of leveling up my poison skill.

[Lamoot]

Just get Weak Auras. I made a Weak Aura to pop up an annoying symbol in the middle of the screen when ever my poisons weren't on. Worked for me, till I got used to paying attention to the duration.

[Deleted]

It's not that hard to figure out why backstab has a positional requirement once you realize where the term originates from. I believe it's excellent design for PvP, while it is most definitly a design problem in some PvE fights.

back·stab·bing
ˈbakˌstabiNG/
noun
1.
the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.
adjective
1.
(of a person) behaving in a backstabbing way.

It says nothing about the action of stabbing something from behind with a sharpened object. Also, alot of thing we backstab in WoW, either don't have a back, or don't expose it to us.

So no, unless they rename it to "Dragon-Achilles-Sinew-Cutter", the argument doesn't fly

[Lynneiah]

What I want to know is why I can't stab someone in the back with an axe. My Worgen has a stabbing animation when attacking with axes (I shit ye not), so it's not like it's that big of a deal to Blizzard.

[Feali]

back·stab·bing
ˈbakˌstabiNG/
noun
1.
the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.
adjective
1.
(of a person) behaving in a backstabbing way.

It says nothing about the action of stabbing something from behind with a sharpened object. Also, alot of thing we backstab in WoW, either don't have a back, or don't expose it to us.

So no, unless they rename it to "Dragon-Achilles-Sinew-Cutter", the argument doesn't fly

Also since they changed it to 270% you're technically stabbing from the front already.

[Deleted]

Get the addon 'cyanide poison reminder' it's a god-send. No matter how many times I try not to use it, I always end up getting it again since it's so easy to miss your poisons running out if you're busy spamming arena/bgs/quests/whatever.

[Deleted]

Get the addon 'cyanide poison reminder' it's a god-send. No matter how many times I try not to use it, I always end up getting it again since it's so easy to miss your poisons running out if you're busy spamming arena/bgs/quests/whatever.

Or you could use this weakaura. It reminds you 10 min beforehand if your poison is about to fall off. Works for Deadly and Wound Poison, but non lethals could easily be added by some copying/renaming, but since I usually refresh all my poisons at once I did not see a point in adding them.

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[Deleted]

I tend to just reapply them everytime i wipe or pull a boss. Sort of just a habbit i guess. The duration does make sense tbh otherwise what the point of even having poisons. The solution to your issue would be to just make poisons a passive which would eliminate the "button bloat" crusade blizz has been on but then it wouldnt feel as cool and make the rogue class more iconic to play. I wish they had a better animation rather than the generic fumble with our hands.

[Mookes]

back·stab·bing
ˈbakˌstabiNG/
noun
1.
the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.
adjective
1.
(of a person) behaving in a backstabbing way.

Well unfortunately for your argument; we are playing a fantasy dragon killing game. Since the spell is indeed called "Backstab" and the requirements are "Must be behind the target" it mean's that it's literally stabbing someone in the back.

Also, alot of thing we backstab in WoW, either don't have a back, or don't expose it to us.

That's what makes it so fun. It's not hard in raid encounters most of the time. After 30% health you don't even need to be behind the monster as Mut. The point is to keep specs versatile and not extremely boring. Go Mut if you want a 3 spell rotation.

[ringpriest]

I am leveling a combat rogue, applying Deadly poison and Leeching poison about every hour or so.
I get that it first was applied to your weapons via consumable items sold at shops.
But since it is now simply a button at your ability book, why does it still have a 1 hour duration?

I usually forget to apply it, not paying attention when I'm killing quest mobs, since it's not something you actively interact with like short-duration debuffs and buffs. You just apply it once, and don't look at it again for the next hour.

And then, when suddenly the poison duration is over, mobs are suddenly harder to kill, and my health depletes more. Maybe I throw in a defensive cooldown.
I think "Wow, these mobs are really hard, compared to the rest!" not noticing the poison being depleted.

Then I see the lack of poison icons on the top-right corner of my screen and I look like a fool to myself.

So my question is, why, in this era of game design, have poisons still have a 1 hour duration? Why not have it being passives that you can toggle for another poison when necessary?

Thank you for reading.

Because World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that the game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game, things like poison duration, reagents, etc. seem out of place. Hope that helps!

[Kael]

That's what makes it so fun. It's not hard in raid encounters most of the time. After 30% health you don't even need to be behind the monster as Mut. The point is to keep specs versatile and not extremely boring. Go Mut if you want a 3 spell rotation.

Yes, you do. We call it parry.

That said, there's no magical barrier (even at 35% for mut. Really, check your numbers and abilities). Other than parry no melee spec has to stand in back to do max damage in WoD other than sub rogues (they do, however, want to stay alive). Backstab was removed from combat, renamed from assassination (with the positional removed), and is mechanically a setback with no tradeoff for the last remaining spec to have a positional requirement. You can now get parried during backstab, too. Most of the people arguing for a change to backstab are not arguing for it to be removed, either, nor to see ambush go, so there's little talk of a 3-button subtlety spec.

Thematically we've rehashed numerous arguments about the spell. Its name, which is discussed both as the contextual reference of betrayal and the literal "to stab in the back" (to which people frequently respond that you can absolutely stab someone in the back... from the front... to the point that several enemies have no back). People have talked about how it's an "iconic" rogue ability (which was shifted into subtlety and out of the specs that had it before over time). People have talked about "tradeoffs" (being in back means you can't waste energy on a parry - until WoD, where you can't be in front, but can be parried from the side). People have also brought up homogenization - but I personally have to ask, do you want the one thing that really sets you apart to be that you just can't function properly in solo PvE?

^ rehashed pages of argument for both sides.

I think Sub is the only spec that's stood out since the beginning of cata (and it still feels just a touch too much like "rogue" rather than its own spec). I've never thought that "you didn't actually attack because the mob turned around" was something that made it feel unique. The timer juggling of mid-cata and being able to get through encounters on 10-man with near-0 healing received was a blast and the difficulty was more present (imo) compared to other options. I find that's somewhat less the case... but removing the positional requirements of backstab doesn't make sub harder. It makes it a nudge less irritating.

That said, this was a topic about poisons. I think ringpriest, above, has the best explanation, but hopefully this post can help bring about some conclusion to the backstab argument.

[Feali]

Yes, you do. We call it parry.

That said, there's no magical barrier (even at 35% for mut. Really, check your numbers and abilities). Other than parry no melee spec has to stand in back to do max damage in WoD other than sub rogues (they do, however, want to stay alive). Backstab was removed from combat, renamed from assassination (with the positional removed), and is mechanically a setback with no tradeoff for the last remaining spec to have a positional requirement. You can now get parried during backstab, too. Most of the people arguing for a change to backstab are not arguing for it to be removed, either, nor to see ambush go, so there's little talk of a 3-button subtlety spec.

Thematically we've rehashed numerous arguments about the spell. Its name, which is discussed both as the contextual reference of betrayal and the literal "to stab in the back" (to which people frequently respond that you can absolutely stab someone in the back... from the front... to the point that several enemies have no back). People have talked about how it's an "iconic" rogue ability (which was shifted into subtlety and out of the specs that had it before over time). People have talked about "tradeoffs" (being in back means you can't waste energy on a parry - until WoD, where you can't be in front, but can be parried from the side). People have also brought up homogenization - but I personally have to ask, do you want the one thing that really sets you apart to be that you just can't function properly in solo PvE?

^ rehashed pages of argument for both sides.

I think Sub is the only spec that's stood out since the beginning of cata (and it still feels just a touch too much like "rogue" rather than its own spec). I've never thought that "you didn't actually attack because the mob turned around" was something that made it feel unique. The timer juggling of mid-cata and being able to get through encounters on 10-man with near-0 healing received was a blast and the difficulty was more present (imo) compared to other options. I find that's somewhat less the case... but removing the positional requirements of backstab doesn't make sub harder. It makes it a nudge less irritating.

That said, this was a topic about poisons. I think ringpriest, above, has the best explanation, but hopefully this post can help bring about some conclusion to the backstab argument.

I'm just gonna take this to the other thread because I think it's so good.

[Christan]

Did you know in Vanilla it had a 30min duration and damaging poisons had charges aswell?

I remember my first MMORPG....

and it was crafted not bought from a vendor, AND you had to level it just like a tradecraft...
so glad its been changed to be so easy, the 1 hour duration is more than fine, better than i think it should be even

[Wildtree]

from a qol perspective the buffs/poisons could be handled differently too nowadays... One could make a case for that....

As for suggestions regarding addons that track these things...
Really??
I would like to ask what good does an addon (weakauras etc do) for that matter? Buff icons flashing already nowadays.. They start flashing 2 minutes prior to the buff/poison falling off.. That's a hell lotta time to see that icon flashing, since well.. Icons don't flash normally.
I'd argue, if you don't see the icon flashing, you won't see the addon either.

[Ealyssa]

Yeah blizzard makes no sense in the buff department. Shamans weapon buffs are gone. Yet poison still stay. WW monk saw their two buff merged, yet paladin still have to choose a blessing.

[Difuid]

Because World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that the game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game, things like poison duration, reagents, etc. seem out of place. Hope that helps!

There is your answer.

[DakonBlackblade]

Well unfortunately for your argument; we are playing a fantasy dragon killing game. Since the spell is indeed called "Backstab" and the requirements are "Must be behind the target" it mean's that it's literally stabbing someone in the back.


That's what makes it so fun. It's not hard in raid encounters most of the time. After 30% health you don't even need to be behind the monster as Mut. The point is to keep specs versatile and not extremely boring. Go Mut if you want a 3 spell rotation.

What does not beeing able to use backstab from the front have to do with number of buttons in your rotation ? Its an archaic stupid design, vhange the spell name to Stab and there we have it. Every class but rogue had positional requirements removed but. Rogues always get quality of life improvements last, it took them 5 xpacs to finally give us combo points on ourselves and when they finally do it they do it the wrong way with you internally casting redirect everytime you change targets rather than just having the CPs on yourself.

[roahn the warlock]

I know many people who would say they miss the ye' olde system where buffs felt more immersive (read, "annoying" for casuals)

- - - Updated - - -

Because World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that the game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game, things like poison duration, reagents, etc. seem out of place. Hope that helps!

Oh my god this is the best answer ever, hope this fits in a sig

[Sesshou]

@Kael
You didn't mention the fact that if you're just talking a binary choice between front or back, in WoD you will technically be able to use backstab from the front anyway... just not from the entire front, so they aren't even following their own rules.

[Verain]

, in WoD you will technically be able to use backstab from the front anyway... just not from the entire front, so they aren't even following their own rules.

Nah, it's still a backstab if you can't do it from the front. I mean, you can reach the back or a kidney or whatever.


My problem is mostly that the game doesn't really have room for backstab, and the spec is a timer based spec, which is not what a backstab spec needs to be (in any game, obviously Blizzard has worked hard to make sub a compelling spec).

So you end up with this rotational move that you need to press all the time having the positional requirement, on top of the fact that it's essentially a lesser version of the one you can use stealthed, on TOP of the fact that BOTH of those suck when you are attacking a fresh mob without your dots (and thus your ability to deal damage) active on it.


The actual concept of backstab, going back to the 70s and being fleshed out by several games in the 80s, is that your character is hidden, and can exploit a flaw. Which is to say, our ambush is the real backstab, and it's barely worth using (and is losing its positional I think). The idea of a fully rotational move that you need to deal damage at all was a result of Blizzard slowly squishing rogues. Backstab was a really important move that was hard to use, with a massive energy cost and large burst damage. That was a reasonable interpretation, mostly because you would never need to backstab essentially all the fucking time. But combat lost it, then mutilate got a better version of it, so suddenly the devs struggled to push it to the one spec that had never needed it- sub. Sub never needed it because it had a talented strike that was pretty decent depending on gear. Then mutilate lost its positional.

So now sub has combat's iconic move as its primary builder, and it never makes any more sense than it ever has, and it is still just "punch, with positional requirement", instead of actually being a backstab.


I mean, if your priority is anything at all like "Get a bleed on the target. If that's true, then ambush, unless you aren't stealthed, in which case, make sure you have rupture AND hemo on the target, AND then wind up your autoattacks with slice and dice. If all that is true and you don't have five combo points or won't soon, then backstab."


Ok, that's not a move, that's a distant clause for a spec that is meant to be conditional and reactive. I generally feel sub is a well designed and fun spec, challenging with reward if played right, but I really have never seen how backstab is in there as anything but an annoyance. It fit in combat daggers and classic assassination, but a low energy spammable move that isn't devastating compared to most strikes in the game (and yes, other classes matter) isn't interesting. Backstab has been pretty much worthless flavorwise since losing the passive +crit that represented your character's skill in finding a weak point.


If they really gave a shit, backstab would be a large energy cost and a 30s+ cooldown, and be worth it for all specs, and sub would have something subtle.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and on topic, poisons are supposed to have a duration because they represent physical items you apply. What makes me cross is simpler: we don't really have poisons.

Going forward, each rogue spec will have:

Damage Poison that deals good damage.
Damage Poison that debuffs healing.

That's straightforward, but sort of silly- I mean, why do I have to pick? A warrior doesn't. Do I have some OTHER choice in there that would be worth trading damage or a mortal debuff on? Back when we poisoned each weapon by itself, we did. This fucking damage / utility split has been AWFUL.

Then we have a second poison. On live this is:

Crippling Poison
Mind Numbing Poison

With a talent option of:
Paralytic (stun/root)
Or:
Leeching (minor amount of leech)


But half of THOSE are going, so your choice is:

Crippling Poison

And if FOR SOME REASON you don't want that, you can instead talent and use leeching. Leeching needs a lot of magnitude to be worth using in pvp, and it simply doesn't have it, being hit by resilience and battle fatigue to be utterly worthless forever and ever. While it may briefly not be mathematically retarded to use at the dawn of WoD, you can rest assured that by the time eight months have passed it will again have a stack of resil and battfat making it trashcan, and you'll probably have to give up your snare to use it.



So basically, we have:

Crippling
Your choice of Deadly or Wound.


That's not a poisoner guy. That's just exactly what everyone else has. Everything else we had that was unique or interesting just got deleted.



The real question is:


Why are there poisons?


And the answer is, maybe Blizzard will get their heads out of their asses sometime in the next few years and poisons will be cool again. But I mean, then I look at the DK rune weapon things, this amazing crucible of coolness that has just gotten nerfed and shrunk over the years. It could have been a 20 deep spellbook of cool effects by now, instead the devs openly tell us trivially wrong bullshit like "If we give you many choices, you'll just figure out the best one and use that", despite many games somehow escaping this issue. I've long accused the devs of only looking at one section of the game, and being willing to burn the rest of the game around whatever they are focused on, and poisons, DK rune enchants, and shaman imbues are just the tip of the iceberg- it's just a very visible tip, because many players are drawn to "customize your weapon to the job at hand from your pool of cool poisons/spells/dark magics- but beware, each comes at a cost, a cost of not having the others!"


So keep poisons and hope the devs change their design policy that makes poisons shit by turning a 180 then driving the roguemobile at 100mph straight back to town to make up for this lost-in-the-desert-shit. That's the game plan.