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  1. #21
    Pit Lord Anium's Avatar
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    Sticky stuff runs out eventually...if you know what I mean

  2. #22
    In vanilla not only we crafted our own poisons and poisons were situational (double damage poisons or 1 instant 1 mind numb etc) but we also had to carry them. Typical rogue had 1-2 bags of poisons (Stacks of 20!!!!!) and 1 bag of vanishing powders and ofc 1-2 slots of blind powders (fadeleaf was so expensive blinding someone was an emergency tool and only rich rogues could afford it).

    I do think 1 hour poison duration is small and I don't feel iconic or retro or whatever you wanna call it whenever I stop what I am doing to reapply poisons however it used to be TERRIBLE so the current state is actually an improvement.

  3. #23
    To still make them somewhat interactive I guess. Every spec has their set of poisons they rarely change, you'd just apply the poisons once and.... maybe change them when you respec or w/e. Same goes for all other buffs, everything could just be an aura but they want some interaction with them.

    Edit: These nostalgic people though! I do however share fond memories of leveling up my poison skill.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire Lamoot's Avatar
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    Just get Weak Auras. I made a Weak Aura to pop up an annoying symbol in the middle of the screen when ever my poisons weren't on. Worked for me, till I got used to paying attention to the duration.

  5. #25
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    It's not that hard to figure out why backstab has a positional requirement once you realize where the term originates from. I believe it's excellent design for PvP, while it is most definitly a design problem in some PvE fights.
    back·stab·bing
    ˈbakˌstabiNG/
    noun
    1.
    the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.
    adjective
    1.
    (of a person) behaving in a backstabbing way.

    It says nothing about the action of stabbing something from behind with a sharpened object. Also, alot of thing we backstab in WoW, either don't have a back, or don't expose it to us.

    So no, unless they rename it to "Dragon-Achilles-Sinew-Cutter", the argument doesn't fly
    Last edited by mmoc486dcfca17; 2014-09-10 at 06:20 PM.

  6. #26
    What I want to know is why I can't stab someone in the back with an axe. My Worgen has a stabbing animation when attacking with axes (I shit ye not), so it's not like it's that big of a deal to Blizzard.

  7. #27
    The Insane Feali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    back·stab·bing
    ˈbakˌstabiNG/
    noun
    1.
    the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.
    adjective
    1.
    (of a person) behaving in a backstabbing way.

    It says nothing about the action of stabbing something from behind with a sharpened object. Also, alot of thing we backstab in WoW, either don't have a back, or don't expose it to us.

    So no, unless they rename it to "Dragon-Achilles-Sinew-Cutter", the argument doesn't fly
    Also since they changed it to 270% you're technically stabbing from the front already.

  8. #28
    Deleted
    Get the addon 'cyanide poison reminder' it's a god-send. No matter how many times I try not to use it, I always end up getting it again since it's so easy to miss your poisons running out if you're busy spamming arena/bgs/quests/whatever.

  9. #29
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ephemeross View Post
    Get the addon 'cyanide poison reminder' it's a god-send. No matter how many times I try not to use it, I always end up getting it again since it's so easy to miss your poisons running out if you're busy spamming arena/bgs/quests/whatever.
    Or you could use this weakaura. It reminds you 10 min beforehand if your poison is about to fall off. Works for Deadly and Wound Poison, but non lethals could easily be added by some copying/renaming, but since I usually refresh all my poisons at once I did not see a point in adding them.

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  10. #30
    Deleted
    I tend to just reapply them everytime i wipe or pull a boss. Sort of just a habbit i guess. The duration does make sense tbh otherwise what the point of even having poisons. The solution to your issue would be to just make poisons a passive which would eliminate the "button bloat" crusade blizz has been on but then it wouldnt feel as cool and make the rogue class more iconic to play. I wish they had a better animation rather than the generic fumble with our hands.

  11. #31
    Stood in the Fire Mookes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorzzara View Post
    back·stab·bing
    ˈbakˌstabiNG/
    noun
    1.
    the action or practice of criticizing someone in a treacherous manner while feigning friendship.
    adjective
    1.
    (of a person) behaving in a backstabbing way.
    Well unfortunately for your argument; we are playing a fantasy dragon killing game. Since the spell is indeed called "Backstab" and the requirements are "Must be behind the target" it mean's that it's literally stabbing someone in the back.

    Also, alot of thing we backstab in WoW, either don't have a back, or don't expose it to us.
    That's what makes it so fun. It's not hard in raid encounters most of the time. After 30% health you don't even need to be behind the monster as Mut. The point is to keep specs versatile and not extremely boring. Go Mut if you want a 3 spell rotation.
    Last edited by Mookes; 2014-09-13 at 09:32 PM.
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  12. #32
    Over 9000! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zeemeerman2 View Post
    I am leveling a combat rogue, applying Deadly poison and Leeching poison about every hour or so.
    I get that it first was applied to your weapons via consumable items sold at shops.
    But since it is now simply a button at your ability book, why does it still have a 1 hour duration?

    I usually forget to apply it, not paying attention when I'm killing quest mobs, since it's not something you actively interact with like short-duration debuffs and buffs. You just apply it once, and don't look at it again for the next hour.

    And then, when suddenly the poison duration is over, mobs are suddenly harder to kill, and my health depletes more. Maybe I throw in a defensive cooldown.
    I think "Wow, these mobs are really hard, compared to the rest!" not noticing the poison being depleted.

    Then I see the lack of poison icons on the top-right corner of my screen and I look like a fool to myself.

    So my question is, why, in this era of game design, have poisons still have a 1 hour duration? Why not have it being passives that you can toggle for another poison when necessary?

    Thank you for reading.
    Because World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that the game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game, things like poison duration, reagents, etc. seem out of place. Hope that helps!
    "In today’s America, conservatives who actually want to conserve are as rare as liberals who actually want to liberate. The once-significant language of an earlier era has had the meaning sucked right out of it, the better to serve as camouflage for a kleptocratic feeding frenzy in which both establishment parties participate with equal abandon" (Taking a break from the criminal, incompetent liars at the NSA, to bring you the above political observation, from The Archdruid Report.)

  13. #33
    Herald of the Titans Kael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookes View Post
    That's what makes it so fun. It's not hard in raid encounters most of the time. After 30% health you don't even need to be behind the monster as Mut. The point is to keep specs versatile and not extremely boring. Go Mut if you want a 3 spell rotation.
    Yes, you do. We call it parry.

    That said, there's no magical barrier (even at 35% for mut. Really, check your numbers and abilities). Other than parry no melee spec has to stand in back to do max damage in WoD other than sub rogues (they do, however, want to stay alive). Backstab was removed from combat, renamed from assassination (with the positional removed), and is mechanically a setback with no tradeoff for the last remaining spec to have a positional requirement. You can now get parried during backstab, too. Most of the people arguing for a change to backstab are not arguing for it to be removed, either, nor to see ambush go, so there's little talk of a 3-button subtlety spec.

    Thematically we've rehashed numerous arguments about the spell. Its name, which is discussed both as the contextual reference of betrayal and the literal "to stab in the back" (to which people frequently respond that you can absolutely stab someone in the back... from the front... to the point that several enemies have no back). People have talked about how it's an "iconic" rogue ability (which was shifted into subtlety and out of the specs that had it before over time). People have talked about "tradeoffs" (being in back means you can't waste energy on a parry - until WoD, where you can't be in front, but can be parried from the side). People have also brought up homogenization - but I personally have to ask, do you want the one thing that really sets you apart to be that you just can't function properly in solo PvE?

    ^ rehashed pages of argument for both sides.

    I think Sub is the only spec that's stood out since the beginning of cata (and it still feels just a touch too much like "rogue" rather than its own spec). I've never thought that "you didn't actually attack because the mob turned around" was something that made it feel unique. The timer juggling of mid-cata and being able to get through encounters on 10-man with near-0 healing received was a blast and the difficulty was more present (imo) compared to other options. I find that's somewhat less the case... but removing the positional requirements of backstab doesn't make sub harder. It makes it a nudge less irritating.

    That said, this was a topic about poisons. I think ringpriest, above, has the best explanation, but hopefully this post can help bring about some conclusion to the backstab argument.
    Last edited by Kael; 2014-09-14 at 10:15 AM.

  14. #34
    The Insane Feali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kael View Post
    Yes, you do. We call it parry.

    That said, there's no magical barrier (even at 35% for mut. Really, check your numbers and abilities). Other than parry no melee spec has to stand in back to do max damage in WoD other than sub rogues (they do, however, want to stay alive). Backstab was removed from combat, renamed from assassination (with the positional removed), and is mechanically a setback with no tradeoff for the last remaining spec to have a positional requirement. You can now get parried during backstab, too. Most of the people arguing for a change to backstab are not arguing for it to be removed, either, nor to see ambush go, so there's little talk of a 3-button subtlety spec.

    Thematically we've rehashed numerous arguments about the spell. Its name, which is discussed both as the contextual reference of betrayal and the literal "to stab in the back" (to which people frequently respond that you can absolutely stab someone in the back... from the front... to the point that several enemies have no back). People have talked about how it's an "iconic" rogue ability (which was shifted into subtlety and out of the specs that had it before over time). People have talked about "tradeoffs" (being in back means you can't waste energy on a parry - until WoD, where you can't be in front, but can be parried from the side). People have also brought up homogenization - but I personally have to ask, do you want the one thing that really sets you apart to be that you just can't function properly in solo PvE?

    ^ rehashed pages of argument for both sides.

    I think Sub is the only spec that's stood out since the beginning of cata (and it still feels just a touch too much like "rogue" rather than its own spec). I've never thought that "you didn't actually attack because the mob turned around" was something that made it feel unique. The timer juggling of mid-cata and being able to get through encounters on 10-man with near-0 healing received was a blast and the difficulty was more present (imo) compared to other options. I find that's somewhat less the case... but removing the positional requirements of backstab doesn't make sub harder. It makes it a nudge less irritating.

    That said, this was a topic about poisons. I think ringpriest, above, has the best explanation, but hopefully this post can help bring about some conclusion to the backstab argument.
    I'm just gonna take this to the other thread because I think it's so good.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Christan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinto View Post
    Did you know in Vanilla it had a 30min duration and damaging poisons had charges aswell?

    I remember my first MMORPG....
    and it was crafted not bought from a vendor, AND you had to level it just like a tradecraft...
    so glad its been changed to be so easy, the 1 hour duration is more than fine, better than i think it should be even
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  16. #36
    The Undying Wildtree's Avatar
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    from a qol perspective the buffs/poisons could be handled differently too nowadays... One could make a case for that....

    As for suggestions regarding addons that track these things...
    Really??
    I would like to ask what good does an addon (weakauras etc do) for that matter? Buff icons flashing already nowadays.. They start flashing 2 minutes prior to the buff/poison falling off.. That's a hell lotta time to see that icon flashing, since well.. Icons don't flash normally.
    I'd argue, if you don't see the icon flashing, you won't see the addon either.
    "The pen is mightier than the sword.. and considerably easier to write with."

  17. #37
    I am Murloc! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Yeah blizzard makes no sense in the buff department. Shamans weapon buffs are gone. Yet poison still stay. WW monk saw their two buff merged, yet paladin still have to choose a blessing.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    Because World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that the game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game, things like poison duration, reagents, etc. seem out of place. Hope that helps!
    There is your answer.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Mookes View Post
    Well unfortunately for your argument; we are playing a fantasy dragon killing game. Since the spell is indeed called "Backstab" and the requirements are "Must be behind the target" it mean's that it's literally stabbing someone in the back.


    That's what makes it so fun. It's not hard in raid encounters most of the time. After 30% health you don't even need to be behind the monster as Mut. The point is to keep specs versatile and not extremely boring. Go Mut if you want a 3 spell rotation.
    What does not beeing able to use backstab from the front have to do with number of buttons in your rotation ? Its an archaic stupid design, vhange the spell name to Stab and there we have it. Every class but rogue had positional requirements removed but. Rogues always get quality of life improvements last, it took them 5 xpacs to finally give us combo points on ourselves and when they finally do it they do it the wrong way with you internally casting redirect everytime you change targets rather than just having the CPs on yourself.

  20. #40
    Immortal roahn the warlock's Avatar
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    I know many people who would say they miss the ye' olde system where buffs felt more immersive (read, "annoying" for casuals)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    Because World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that the game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game, things like poison duration, reagents, etc. seem out of place. Hope that helps!
    Oh my god this is the best answer ever, hope this fits in a sig
    It was never Hardcore Vs Casual. It was Socialites Vs. Solo players
    Quote Originally Posted by ringpriest View Post
    World of Warcraft started life as a Computer Roleplaying Game, where part of the fun of the game experience was pretending to be your character. Stuff like applying poisons and eating food enhanced the verisimilitude of the experience of playing a fantasy character in another world. Now that game has changed to become a tactical arcade lobby game.

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