Simulationcraft results for WoD

[zyZ]

which sub profile are people using for simc? still the one in OP?

[Xaryen]

Just wanted to give a heads up and expand on Macs post a bit in regards to Killing Spree/weapon speed interaction, because there seems to be a misconception that slow/slow setup is better for Killing Spree.
While its true that KS damage depends on Weapon damage, we need to consider that we keep autoattacking during killing spree and therefore still take advantage of the fast main-hand. That also means there's a break point where we do enough AA damage during KS that it offsets actual KS damage.
In an attempt to find it I ran a bunch of sims(APL available here) to check damage during KS, though keep in mind these arent accurate representation of a real scenario. I also included weapon syncing to to find out how much the initial swing timer affects the results(usually withing the margin of error).
10 targets, DPS Error of ~240

We can see fast/slow significantly outperforms slow/slow and therefore shouldnt swap for KS
5 Targets, DPS Error of ~130

Fast/Slow still ahead of slow/slow, so no need to swap.
3 Targets, DPS Error of ~85

Now we are getting to the tricky part, here slow/slow can outperform fast/slow but difference is very small and depending on swing timers it can still do worse, now if we wanted to consider weapon swapping, we could use the same approach as Mac, but keep in mind that its likely that we are already attacking multiple targets making the double swing timer reset(before and after KS) potentialy significant loss and even if we are singletargeting it's not really plausible for swapping to be any gain here.
2 Targets, DPS Error of ~60

Here slow/slow finally definitively outperforms fast/slow, now we can look at how the damage compares, (using the same approach as Mac) damage lost from swings: [(1.65*3+1.14)/4]*0.5*54058 = 41144, and the damage we gain from switching: 1929*3 = 5787 we can see that that the damage gained from swapping is nowhere near what we lose from the swing timer reset. Based on this I think its safe to say that swapping weapons exclusively for Killing spree wont result in any dps gain.

[Moejahi3d]

I dont have hard numbers but i think you are right just by trying it out. Was doing a couple of maiden fighst to help some buddies and on some fighst i kept swapping for each KS and for some i didnt at all, the tries where i didnt swap i kept doing more dps with just staying with fast/slow.

[Deleted]

Is it true that one cannot extract real Rupture uptimes from SimC Sub simulation results? Mine shows something like 170%, I'm guessing due to SC mechanic.

Yeah, unfortunately the way it's implemented currently messes up the "real" uptime, since each SC proc actually adds a tick to the reporting. This in turn counts as "time" for the uptime calculation, which messes up things. I will be changing this at some point to how you guys see it in game (separate entry in WCL for example).

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Is there a way to swap weapons before an action in simcraft? Like swap to slow weapons and back after KS is done?

There is going to be an experimental weapon swapping system for Rogues only in the next release of Simulationcraft. If you want to try it now, you can always compile your own release, the wiki has instructions. Documentation of weapon swapping functionality is in this commit. I'll add it to the Rogue Simulationcraft wiki page when I have a bit of time.

I do need to stress that it is very experimental, and non-trivial to implement in the simulator due to how we do certain things. That being said, I would not have added it at all if I had found some obvious issue with it, so if things bug, I'll be fixing them.

[Mac223]

Xaryen, that was an elegant way of coaxing simC into telling you want you wanted to know about KSpree.

I was a little worried that simC would start every run with synced AAs, but that's apparently not the case. Also, your APLs aren't actually using MfD and SnD, because anticipation. But it doesn't really change the conclusion.

[Icecreamcake]

Somewhere in this Rogue section someone actually took the time to calculate all the races. It's negligible.

I'm gonna look for it. BRB

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It's roughly a month old. But that shouldn't matter too much.

was this meant to be a joke because they all look the same. obviously there is some truth behind it with undead being at the bottom

[Moejahi3d]

was this meant to be a joke because they all look the same. obviously there is some truth behind it with undead being at the bottom

They are not the same..draw a line from top to bottom and you will see. He used a big scale so the difference doesnt look obvious :P it's super small anyway hehe.

ps: The trinket list, shows that Heroic Scales > Mythic micro aberration. Shadowcraft shows that it's a big dps increase what is true? I know shadowcraft doesnt work good with on use trinkets but how about passive/chance trinket comparison?

I have a heroic scales + Heroic beating heart and got a Mythic socketted Aberration yesterday. Shadowcraft shows it's a ~400dps increase over the heroic scales, cant sim it since i'm not home for a few days but maybe someone here can give me some info

[Getrow]

If you were to mess with the scaling of the graph you would see a larger difference. In general though I think this is a good thing to keep in mind though, race, in the log run, doesn't much of a difference at all. If it did, you would see all PvE guilds play on the same faction (similar to the pvp players shifting every race updating patch).

[Moejahi3d]

I asked my wife (yes impatient :P) to sim it for me at home, Mythic socket Aberration(+50multistrike gem) is a 240dps increase vs Heroic scales.

[Ryme]

Updated the OP.

Since it seems like no one was going to be taking the thread over and since I'd like for this to continue being useful into 6.2, I'll be sporadically updating this post as and when I can. However, I won't be able to delve deeply into issues, so really will be relying on any of your forum goers to help me out with this.

Many things changed, too many and most too small to list. I've also changed the multiple target graphs to show the damage going out on your main target as well, feedback requested!

Issues:

Subtlety is doing substantially lower AoE dps than expected. Perhaps there were some underlying mechanical changes, but I'd wager it's possible to substantially increase the values shown.
Combat single target is slightly lower than expected, unsure as to why.

[Jarvid]

I've also changed the multiple target graphs to show the damage going out on your main target as well, feedback requested!

Thanks Ryme, very welcome improvement. Seeing that Sub with it's improved FoK even with multiple targets should focus on damaging this single target maybe there could be some graph that represents ST damage even when multiple targets are present. If that is somewhat understandable. Of course this would need a specific simc profile.

Subtlety is doing substantially lower AoE dps than expected. Perhaps there were some underlying mechanical changes, but I'd wager it's possible to substantially

Expected compared to what ? I think your last graphs were made with the improved FoK bug in Simulationcraft(always 1 CP too much) still present, so if you compare it to your "old" graphs this could be the reason

Glad you are updating the thread!

[Ryme]

You mean show the ST target dps of Subtlety in a multiple target situation? Yeah, that's probably worth looking in to, I'll see if I can create an appropriate apl today.

Ah, so there was an issue in Sub modelling, fair enough!

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I'm having a few issues getting the profile to behave as intended, but it looks like it's a ST increase to switch to FoK at 4-5 mobs.

Also updated the sub AoE profile, sorry if this isn't news to anyone:
- FoK should now be used at 3+ targets
- CT on 3 only when FW is down, replace Evis at 4+

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Added race analysis as it's often brought up, mind the scale! (error is around 25-30 dps)

Redoing combat under gnome race, somehow always missed it.

[Jarvid]

That what I meant,yes Doesn't sound like the dps improvment is major, when using FoK with multiple mobs around though? Guess this is because of the high multistrike backstab is so strong in advancing ticks?
Had hoped this would be a bit different to have a use for sub in fights like furnace
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Yes the AoE profile change because of the FoK bug in simulationcraft was mentioned (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post32689239) but never confirmed, as most ppl seemed to not use FoK at under 2 targets anyways.
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Wow, that gnome combat rogue graph scared me, but then I rembered your "mind the scale" ;-)

[Deleted]

Hello,

I've got some questions, if you could help me understand some things

1) When I use ShadowCraft, it shows a huge DPS difference on 2 pages with the same equipment... how can I fix that ? (I've checked every options, they're the same)
2) Still with SC, when I check blade fury with 2 adds to the boss in combat, it tells me that it's better to gem and enchant multistrike, is that "prediction" correct ?
3) SC tells me that +125 multistrike food is better than +125 haste food, in combat, regardless of the number of adds (0,1,2,3...) is it true ? If not, when should I use one instead of the other ?
4) You say that FoK is to be used with 3 or more targets, but when I checked logs on Ka'graz of subtelty rogues, I haven't seen anyone using it, yet there is a moment when the 2 wolves are packed near Ka'graz. So is it worth using it ?
5) I'm having a hard time understanding what weapons to use, and when, in combat... Even though I've read the posts talking about it.
The weapons I can use are : Hans'gar's Forgehammer (x2), Oregorger's Acid-Etched Gutripper, Molten Edge Eviscerator (x2), all heroics. Could anyone try to explain me (basically or not) when to use what ?

Thank you for reading.

[Mac223]

1) You're either doing something wrong, or there's a bug in SC. Not enough information to tell.
2) Very likely.
3) SC tells you which stat is better. The food setting is up to you.
4) Information on sub AoE is scarce, so most people have no idea what they're doing.
5) Go into shadowcraft. Change weapons and see what gives the most DPS.

[Deleted]

So basically, the stat weight on the front page for combat is only for single target fight (where we should be playing subtelty mostly) ?

If I plan on playing combat only for mutli-adds fights, I should just gem/enchant/food multistrike then ?

[Deleted]

4) You say that FoK is to be used with 3 or more targets, but when I checked logs on Ka'graz of subtelty rogues, I haven't seen anyone using it, yet there is a moment when the 2 wolves are packed near Ka'graz. So is it worth using it ?
5) I'm having a hard time understanding what weapons to use, and when, in combat... Even though I've read the posts talking about it.
The weapons I can use are : Hans'gar's Forgehammer (x2), Oregorger's Acid-Etched Gutripper, Molten Edge Eviscerator (x2), all heroics. Could anyone try to explain me (basically or not) when to use what ?

Sure it's worth using FoK when there are 3 or more targets. But normally Shadow Dance is ready when the wolves come, so you start with Shadow Dance on the wolf and don't use FoK.
You're on the safe side if you use 2x Hans'gar's Forgehammer..

So basically, the stat weight on the front page for combat is only for single target fight (where we should be playing subtelty mostly) ?

If I plan on playing combat only for mutli-adds fights, I should just gem/enchant/food multistrike then ?

The stat weight is either for single or multi target, depends on the setting.

Haste is still the solidest stat for combat. But if you wear the same equip for both sub and combat, than multistrike is most reasonable.

[Raic]

One question I had regarding Combat in a focus DPS situation with adds. I don't think I've seen this mentioned yet (sorry if it has).

Obviously if you're focusing single target you'd turn BF off because of the energy penalty, but with Venom Rush talented, would it be worth it to toggle on BF briefly (everytime the CD is up) to keep up 3 (or 2) stacks of Venom Rush while pushing single target DPS?

The "hidden" poison debuff lasts 12 seconds and BF has a 10 second CD, so it would be possible to keep up.

I have yet to put this into practice, but I assume it would be worth it for the added energy regen (if my interpretation of VR's internal workings is accurate).

it's a fairly unique scenario, I can only think of Blast Furnace and Maidens (maybe Beastlord too) where this might be useful.

Is there a way to sim for this? It would simply be a single target scenario with a constant 3 (or 2) stacks of VR.

[Deleted]

The stat weight is either for single or multi target, depends on the setting.

Haste is still the solidest stat for combat. But if you wear the same equip for both sub and combat, than multistrike is most reasonable.

I'm wearing different gears for sub and for combat:

Sub : tinyurl.com/kvqaqp4
Combat (mono) : tinyurl.com/nadjmz5
Combat (multi) : tinyurl.com/o57ckmk

Sorry I have to use tinyurl, I can't link otherwise (don't have enough posts)

My "real" combat gear is the one I called "mono" previously, but since I'm only using combat for multi-adds boss, should I gem/enchant multi ? ShadowCraft seems to say it's an upgrade, but I'm not sure.

[Ryme]

Is there a way to sim for this? It would simply be a single target scenario with a constant 3 (or 2) stacks of VR.

I might be wrong here, but I don't believe simc actually creates the venom rush buff. Instead it checks if you have the talent, then counts the number of targets you have poisoned and modifies your regen. If so, I don't believe you'll be able to make a API line to work off of it.

If I'm wrong though,

actions+=/blade_flurry,if=buff.venom_rush.stack<3&buff.blade_flurry.down|buff.venom_rush.stack=3&buff.blade_flurry.up

.

That should probably be what you're looking for.