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  1. #1741
    Deleted
    Hey Ive,

    1) If you have access to mythic WF Captive micro abberation I'm sure you also have access to other on-use trinkets? Simming it the difference is not as big as I would have expected (LDSC can indeed compete, still it is behind a little bit), but I would say mythic WF Captive micro aberration is the better choice.
    Maybe there are ppl, who want to lower the ilvl to fall into another bracket in logs, maybe this is a reason to use LDSC over micro abberation, I dunno

    2) Good question, I'm also having this problem. I' note sure but I guess it's due to the SnD energy tick every 2 secs. Sometimes the timing works to have 2 ticks in the subterfuge phase and sometimes it does not. This is pure guessing though.

  2. #1742
    Thanks Jarvid. Well no beating heart or trigger for me yet :-/ I was able to get only 676 ilvl scales, 691 ilvl Captive micro abberation and coin. And I felt like keeping the coin because it lines up so perfectly with sub CDs obviously. So I understand you Simmed 691 abberation vs coin and abberation had better outcome?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarvid View Post
    Maybe there are ppl, who want to lower the ilvl to fall into another bracket in logs, maybe this is a reason to use LDSC over micro abberation, I dunno
    Or there are ppl that don't want to gimp their ilvl and that's why they are not using the coin

  3. #1743
    Deleted
    That what I did yes,compared your 691 ilvl Captive micro abberation vs LDSC, but it was with my gear on the rest of items, while keeping my own 670 ilvl Captive micro abberation as 2nd trinket. Patchwerk style fight on 1 target.
    Captive micro abberation indeed was better, but to my suprise the difference was rather small, <1%.

    So choose what you like the best, but in fights where you may have problems to use sub CDs asap due to boss mechanics better use your Captive micro aberration

  4. #1744
    Thanks again Jarvid! All I need now is someone (*winking at fiery*) to say that my sub opener is optimal and I will be able to sleep at night.

  5. #1745
    Deleted
    Is Simcraft updated regarding enchants stacking? Ie. Frostwolf/Frostwolf vs Frostwolf/Hollow. F/F still sims higher.

  6. #1746
    Weapon swapping as combat, when is it worth it?

    Weapon swapping incurs a loss of DPS, because you stop autoattacking through swing timer resets. As far as I've been able to tell, weapon swapping resets the timer on both weapons. In the following I'm going to assume that we're not micro-managing our weapon swaps, and as a result we lose half a swing, on average, per swap. I'm also going to assume that every swap happens when the player is only hitting one mob, so we can look at the damage loss from not autoattacking during single target DPS.
    These are the weapon speeds in question, and based on them we can estimate an AA-pause of (1.3*3+0.9)/4 = 1.2 seconds per swapping a dagger in and out. We then multiply that time with the single target DPS:
    and how much of our DPS is derived from AAs (a tad more than 50%), giving us a damage loss per cleave-phase of 0.5*1.2*43644=26186.4 in mythic gear, and 22420.8 in heroic gear.

    The gear-set used can be found here
    I'm using warsong on both fists, and frostwolf on the dagger. The weapon choice is not BiS, but made with their very similar stat distribution in mind.

    The next step is to estimate the damage gained from swapping, and I did this by comparing Fast/Slow with Slow/Slow for five and ten targets, with both mythic and heroic gear.

    5 targets:

    For mythic the DPS difference is 4568, meaning that you would need 26186.4/4568 ~< 6 seconds of DPSing to make up the difference. And the result is similar for heroic.

    10 targets:

    We do the same thing, but here the difference is more than twice as large, and we find 26186.4/11351 ~< 2.5 seconds.

    As more of an afterthought, I also did a run with 20 targets, where the difference came out to 24515, giving ~< 1 seconds. And for four and three targets I came up with ~< 8 and 14 seconds, respectively.

    Any comments, double- (and tripple-) checking, or refinements are most welcome.

    Know caveats:
    1) AA resets also effect energy regen, so the 50% number should probably be ~60% since combat potency is responsible for around 20% of your energy regen.
    2) RPPM data reset -> lower enchant uptime. To take 5 targets as an example, one enchant is worth about 2500 dps. In a world without bad luck protection enchants are 10-15% less effective, so the dps gain goes down 4568 - 2500*0.15 = 4190. There will also be an additional damage loss from having less uptime during single target.

    So between the two it's probably safe to say that you should add an additional third to the number of seconds. I'll edit those numbers when I'm more confident about the effect of 1) and 2).
    Last edited by Mac223; 2015-03-19 at 02:07 PM.

  7. #1747
    It's a little more complicated than that. Weapon swaps reset RPPM data, which affects overall stat uptimes.

    It's probably viable, especially if you're out of range of the target when the opportunity strikes, but this is a little generous.

    EDIT: Removed erroneous statement about buffs dropping.
    Last edited by Pathal; 2015-03-18 at 05:02 PM.

  8. #1748
    Mac's analysis is good but it also misses the slight energy loss from the lost combat potency and main gauche combat potency procs. Its hard to quantify that without adding a lot of complexity but combined with Pathal's point this analysis is probably a slight underestimate but this should give you a reasonable ballpark figure.
    Fierydemise-ShaowCraft Engine Guy
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  9. #1749
    Deleted
    In clear Words..... On which Bosses in BRF is it worth to use Fast Slow???

  10. #1750
    Deleted
    When you go Blade Flurry swap for dagger. When you end Blade Flurry reswap. Easy stuff.

  11. #1751
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    Quote Originally Posted by HansFranz1 View Post
    In clear Words..... On which Bosses in BRF is it worth to use Fast Slow???
    I've been looking through my own logs in an attempt to make a larger post about this. I'll try and summarize what I've come up with so far (can only speak about Mythic bosses I'm familiar with).

    I'm immediately crossing off H&M Oregorger, Gruul, and Blackhand since those are mostly single target (I can't speak to M Blackhand though, my assumptions are based the number of Sub rogue logs so far).

    H&M Hans and Franz....probably not one either, if I recall 2 target fast/slow vs slow/slow was roughly even, but then you'd be switching back and forth anyway when a boss jumps up which would likely be even more of a dps loss.

    H&M Beastlord....seems like it might be worth it on Pack Beasts, 7 targets (6 beasts + boss) for what appeared to be 10~12 seconds in my guild's run a couple days ago (though this is entirely dependent on comp and damage).

    H Flamebender....probably a no. 2 targets at the start, 3 when the dogs come out (which could go down to 2 during fixates), 1 target otherwise.
    M Flamebender....might be a yes, in our kills thus far, 4 dogs + boss have been clumped together and have lived for more than 6 seconds.

    H Kromog...maybe? I seem to recall hitting at least 5 targets when I'm in a good hand position, but the goal here isn't necessarily to break out hands as fast as possible so I'm not sure switching would matter here.

    H Operator...seems like it might be a yes, add waves have a high amount (10+) of low health adds alive for more than 2.5 seconds. Once again this is a fight that depends on comp and damage, if the raid has low AoE damage then swapping might be more noticeable.

    H Blast Furnace...I honestly don't know. I've been on the boss side on every attempt, phase 1 boss+bellows+engineer (or 2)+security guard (or 2) seems like there could be anywhere from 1 to 6 targets. Phase 2 is a little more tricky since one would presumably stop cleaving when the Elementalists are vulnerable.

    H Iron Maidens...This is one I'd have to look at the numbers. At the start there are 3 targets (and you can begin the fight with weapons already swapped). Then it fluctuates between 2 and 3 targets until the end.

    TL;DR (based on my own experience....raid comp and strats)
    H&M Gruul, Oregorger, Hans&Franz, Blackhand - No
    H&M Beastlord - Likely yes on Pack Beasts
    H Flamebender - No
    M Flamebender - Yes
    H Kromog - Does it matter?
    H Operator - Yes
    H Blast Furnace - Depends entirely on situation
    H Iron Maidens - Start with fast/slow, not sure after

    This was just a quick and dirty take on things, if anyone wants to go into more detail, feel free to.

  12. #1752
    To me, Operator is the only clear instance where it's good. On Furnace you could make a case for going f/s until it's time to kill elementalists, especially if you're on the side of the Foreman. Flamebender and Beastlord are both in a grey zone, where you really have to make a judgement call based on your comp and strategy. I guess the same is true on Kromog, if your raid really needs that extra damage and puts you in the middle then there's little to lose since you're running from the boss anyway.

  13. #1753
    I personally only do it for beastlord, furance and maidens. I play sub on flamebender (heroic. Haven't done any mythics yet unfortunately).
    On kromog, I agree it doesn't matter at all. The only thing I can think of is that slow/slow does more priority target damage if you cleave off the boss (onto the mythic mechanic I've heard about for example). Then again, you do cleave a lot for the hands, but it's just not that often..Maybe worth switching when running away from the boss/back to the boss?

  14. #1754
    Deleted
    I had some free time and played a bit around with simcraft and now bring enlightenment:
    Behold, opener Simulation results:



    I set for all simulations the fight length to 350s fixed, so all simulations have exactly 6 Shadow Dances. This was in order to only look at openers without possibly later lost dance usages. If you lose a dance you might want to switch to a faster opener.
    10k iterations each.

    It's funny how for every talent and size of SnD other different openers are optimal.
    Last edited by mmoc7df6ba81a8; 2015-03-20 at 10:57 PM.

  15. #1755
    Fixed an issue where Mark of Warsong could decrement incorrectly when two applications have been applied to the same character.
    Does anyone know what this bug was about? Does the change increase or decrease MoW value (for Combat cleave)?

  16. #1756
    For some reason, multistrike enchants is better then mastery one when i sim myself with profile from this topic, and its an opposite when i sim with standard
    simcraft profile. What to trust?

  17. #1757
    Quote Originally Posted by nihna View Post
    I had some free time and played a bit around with simcraft and now bring enlightenment:
    Behold, opener Simulation results:
    You may also want to look at things without bloodlust, from some brief experiments BL on the pull changes the optimal opener. That said I think these results suggest the silliness of worrying about the optimal opener, the prepull SnD the gap between the best and worst opener is 290 dps out of 49314 dps or 0.5% dps. The difference between the best and the commonly used garrote opener is 0.3% this is the epitome of a non factor.

    Quote Originally Posted by nordveien View Post
    Does anyone know what this bug was about? Does the change increase or decrease MoW value (for Combat cleave)?
    In SimC and ShC Warsong was implemented as Blizzard said it should rather than how it was behaving in game, in fact I don't think anyone ever actually worked out exactly how dual warsong was working in game other than to say it wasn't working the way it should have been.
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  18. #1758
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by fierydemise View Post
    You may also want to look at things without bloodlust, from some brief experiments BL on the pull changes the optimal opener. That said I think these results suggest the silliness of worrying about the optimal opener, the prepull SnD the gap between the best and worst opener is 290 dps out of 49314 dps or 0.5% dps. The difference between the best and the commonly used garrote opener is 0.3% this is the epitome of a non factor.
    For the general population I agree that it does not matter.

    But to the people who go so far as to use runes every try for 50 agi and expensive stat food for +25 stats I would say it matters, because their gain is also probably as small.
    That said the highest swings are recorded in the MFD profiles, which probably targets the extreme min maxing group of players.
    The anticipation openers on the other hand only show ~0.2% differences from best to worst.


    On Bloodlust on pull: I think considering BL vs no BL on pull will only affect a couple of the openers listed here, namely the ones which don't go into CDs with ~60 energy. Most of them are not energy starved after the opener and don't need to wait on energy before using CDs.

  19. #1759
    Quote Originally Posted by nihna View Post
    For the general population I agree that it does not matter.

    But to the people who go so far as to use runes every try for 50 agi and expensive stat food for +25 stats I would say it matters, because their gain is also probably as small.
    That said the highest swings are recorded in the MFD profiles, which probably targets the extreme min maxing group of players.
    The anticipation openers on the other hand only show ~0.2% differences from best to worst.


    On Bloodlust on pull: I think considering BL vs no BL on pull will only affect a couple of the openers listed here, namely the ones which don't go into CDs with ~60 energy. Most of them are not energy starved after the opener and don't need to wait on energy before using CDs.
    So I assume if I have 4 pc set with Anticipation talent, I should do Garrote>Ambush>HAT proc to 5 CP before rupture for optimal damage output?

  20. #1760
    Nihna, have you compared Yliajo's anticipation opener?
    Garrote ) Ambush ) CDs ) Ambush ) Rupture

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