1. #5081
    I haven't tested HFC so that's why I used BRF examples (and Ultraxion because we haven't seen a true patchwerk in a while). So yeah, you guys will have to play that part by ear.

    Also the takeaway is:
    The trinket is good on stack fights, but probably not with 4pc.

    If 4pc is like +20% healing with PoM Uplift, and you get maybe about (2 chi /3 chi)*(50% overheal) = 33% of that for EM (healing of Uplift about = EM at 0% overheal) and 0% for ChiEx, subtracting out 0.67*20 = 13.3% healing for EM and 20% healing for ChiEx, then the trinket is not very useful anymore...
    Last edited by Geodew; 2015-06-15 at 07:26 AM.
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  2. #5082
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    - - - Updated - - -
    Yeah, should be, unless I misunderstand you. If we want to sanity check it, the 2H is a higher item level than the 1H, right? Ignoring the off-hand for now, since off-hands don't have spellpower or much itemization power on them anyway. Like I said, the higher item level weapon should win. If they're the same item level, then the best itemization will win, maybe unless your offhand is completely terrible.
    the 1H and the 2H are the same ilvl. 685. the offhand is ilvl 655 with a socket.
    i just post the links below.
    Staff (279 Int):
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=113869&bonus=566

    1H (119 Int):
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=113973/k...east&bonus=566
    Offhand with socket (119 Int):
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=116379/f...wisp&bonus=563
    (238 Int)

    Now my confusion is, that when i got the 1H and the Offhand equipped and reload my armory on the AMR site, the site tells me, that the staff is better by +81. When i got the staff equipped and reload my armory, AMR tells me, that the 1H is better by +74. This is what i dont understand.
    with the staff i have
    +279 Intellect (527,31)
    +418 Stamina
    +172 Haste (104,92)
    +1596 Spell Power (2.681,28)
    +194 Mastery (65,96)
    makes a value of 3.379,47

    with the 1H
    +119 Intellect (221,34)
    +179 Stamina
    +80 Critical Strike (78,4)
    +1595 Spell Power (2.681,28)
    +80 Multistrike (87,2)
    value of 3.068,22

    and the OH
    +119 Intellect (221,34)
    +178 Stamina
    +85 Haste (51,85)
    +70 Mastery (23,8)
    +35 Multistrike (38,15)
    value of 335,14
    together: 3.403,36

    so the 1H/OH combo is better right?

    well it seems that the stats weights on AMR are different then the weights from geodew. stupid me.
    Last edited by siccora; 2015-06-15 at 07:35 AM.
    13/13

    Monk

  3. #5083
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    I haven't tested HFC so that's why I used BRF examples (and Ultraxion because we haven't seen a true patchwerk in a while). So yeah, you guys will have to play that part by ear.

    Also the takeaway is:
    The trinket is good on stack fights, but probably not with 4pc.

    If 4pc is like +20% healing with PoM Uplift, and you get maybe about (2 chi /3 chi)*(50% overheal) = 33% of that for EM (healing of Uplift about = EM at 0% overheal) and 0% for ChiEx, subtracting out 0.67*20 = 13.3% healing for EM and 20% healing for ChiEx, then the trinket is not very useful anymore...
    Yeah it looks like the Heroic version is barely better than Mythic BRF alternatives under ideal circumstances of what we can realistically expect in a raid, but even those are just parts of fights and you can't switch trinkets mid-fight.

    It just seems so odd to have that be the effect when it's mutually exclusive with benefiting from the 4p. You can't heal the tank with Soothing because then you're not splashing anyone. You can't heal melee/ranged with Soothing because EM/Surging would be totally wasted on them. All they really had to do was let CE benefit the 4p and it would be pretty good :|

  4. #5084
    Warchief Supliftz's Avatar
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    So basically this trinket IS good if extend life didn't exist, right got it. So not a viable trinket to be using over BRF trinkets. Min maxing leech trinket + extend life is far too important in HFC for this trinket to ever be considered. A lot of these fights have high stacked healing requirements on top of 1-3 people taking high dot/burst damage. Perfect for leech trinket/Extend Life. Not to mention it comes with the fundamental problems total has listed (it also has a 6 yard!!!!!!!!!!! aoe/does N O T H I N G for fistweaving)

    Can we just take a step back and just think what this trinket is for btw? Mistweavers are already the gods of stacked AoE healing in BRF. Why do we need a trinket with such outrageous numbers for a perfect stacked situation. On a more personal note. I'm actually happy this trinket will never be used. The extend life min maxing mini game is actually quite enjoyable. Removing that and replacing it with a channel bot playstyle is just awful gameplay wise.
    Last edited by Supliftz; 2015-06-15 at 02:04 PM.

  5. #5085
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post

    What combo thing are you talking about...? I don't follow here
    Sometimes my english sucks sorry, I meant having to cast Soothing Mist before Surging or Enveloping.

    ----

    So.. leech trinket + autoclave it is?
    Last edited by Spotnick; 2015-06-15 at 02:36 PM.
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  6. #5086
    Quote Originally Posted by Supliftz View Post
    Can we just take a step back and just think what this trinket is for btw? Mistweavers are already the gods of stacked AoE healing in BRF. Why do we need a trinket with such outrageous numbers for a perfect stacked situation.
    I think someone thought that you'd ReM both tanks and then spam Soothing/EM on the current tank and effectively be a super tank healer. Almost everything works out to end up working like that, except that the tanks are never that close to the melee DPS. If it had like a 12 yard AoE or something it might actually be very good but 6 yards is literally less than RJW's radius which kind of defeats the point.

  7. #5087
    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Sometimes my english sucks sorry, I meant having to cast Soothing Mist before Surging or Enveloping.
    Oh. I don't really find it annoying or boring. It's just bad because it's so expensive to keep that going, and EM, being a HoT, just overheals a lot on anything but tanks, and even if you put it on a tank, chances are you can't keep SooM on them for the extra SooM healing because SooM alone is a waste of GCDs and SooM+SM would just make yourself overheal with EM. Except in rare cases where your tank is getting wrecked for whatever reason, i.e. hovering at 50% HP while you lay into him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    So.. leech trinket + autoclave it is?
    Probably, I'll make sure when I update everything for post-nerf. Probably late tonight? Should be easy.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh yeah, I was thinking about doing a +10% bonus for the on-use crit. Does that sound reasonable?

    After all, it's still 3028 crit on-use, which should be ~27% crit. But with a 1m30s cd, if you have e.g. scripted burst every 50s, then you only have it every other time, so that's an average of 1500 crit on-use for each. But an intelligent healer would almost surely take 1499 passive crit over that because that's a LOT of crit for being passive. So there must be some kind of weight that reasonably approximates their value; it's not like the on-use will always be strictly better. As for me, I don't think using trinkets during burst is necessarily that important, particularly because your Tranq or HTT or Devo or PWB is already taking care of most of the healing. Using your trinket next to a Tranq is kind of drop-in-a-bucket mode. In fact, probably on most fights, you see much more healing-related deaths when healing is a little tight AND the raid doesn't have any cooldowns available.

    Of course, it benefits Revival if you pair it with Revival, but Revival crits can easily overheal, so not sure how useful that is. Further, if all you need is to save 1-3 people at 5%, which happens sometimes, it doesn't really matter much whether it crits or not because it saves their life regardless. Revival's maybe a weird side-case, but should at least be taken into account.
    Last edited by Geodew; 2015-06-15 at 05:39 PM.
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  8. #5088
    Banned cqwrteur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Of course, it benefits Revival if you pair it with Revival, but Revival crits can easily overheal, so not sure how useful that is. Further, if all you need is to save 1-3 people at 5%, which happens sometimes, it doesn't really matter much whether it crits or not because it saves their life regardless. Revival's maybe a weird side-case, but should at least be taken into account.
    Forgive my disagreeing to you that critical strike causes more overhealing. However, I cannot say you are wrong, for I haven't tested them.

    I could give you two functions to test which take account of multistrike and critical strike. I use these two functions to predict uplift and revival healing in my addons. They work well. The first is pvp version, the second is pve version. In pve, there might cause two multistrike, so it's very complex. But the PVP version is simple, you can read it to help you learn how it might be in pve. These two functions calculate the mathematical expectation healing. I hadn't solved this math problem for a long time until 2 weeks ago.

    Code:
    -- 	ms = GetMultistrike()/100,crit = GetCritChance()/100, hd is someone's max_health-his_health, raw_healing is an instant raw spell healing(without ms and crit).
    local function mscr_pvp(ms,crit,hd,raw_healing)
    	local nocr = 1 - crit
    	local noms = 1 - ms
    	local temp = 0
    	local chance = 0
    	local efct = 0
    	if hd<raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = nocr*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + temp
    	if hd<1.3*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = ms*nocr*nocr
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 1.3*temp
    	if hd<1.45*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*ms*nocr
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 1.45*temp
    	if hd<1.5*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 1.5*temp
    	if hd<1.8*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*ms*nocr
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 1.8*temp
    	if hd<1.95*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*crit*ms
    	efct = efct + 1.95*temp
    	return efct * raw_healing
    end
    
    local function mscr_pve(ms,crit,hd,raw_healing)
    	local nocr = 1 - crit
    	local noms = 1 - ms
    	local temp = 0
    	local chance = 0
    	local efct = 0
    	if hd<raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = nocr*noms*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + temp
    	if hd<1.3*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = 2*ms*nocr*nocr*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 1.3*temp
    	if hd<1.6*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = ms*ms*nocr*nocr*nocr+2*crit*ms*nocr*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 1.6*temp
    	if hd<1.9*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = 2*crit*ms*ms*nocr*nocr
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 1.9*temp
    	if hd<2*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*noms*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 2*temp
    	if hd<2.2*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*crit*ms*ms*nocr
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 2.2*temp
    	if hd<2.3*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = 2*crit*ms*nocr*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 2.3*temp
    	if hd<2.6*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*ms*ms*nocr*nocr+2*crit*crit*ms*noms
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 2.6*temp
    	if hd<2.9*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = 2*crit*crit*ms*ms*nocr
    	chance = chance + temp
    	efct = efct + 2.9*temp
    	if hd<3.2*raw_healing then
    		return efct * raw_healing+(1-chance) * hd
    	end
    	temp = crit*crit*crit*ms*ms
    	efct = efct + 3.2*temp
    	return efct * raw_healing
    end
    Last edited by cqwrteur; 2015-06-15 at 10:50 PM.

  9. #5089
    That code doesn't look right. In PvE you roll one crit for +100%. I don't know why you're multiplying by crit chance 3 times.

    Anyway, crit will always have more overheal than base healing as a percentage, but normally MW heals are so small that we either do ~0% overheal or ~100%. The exception will be hard-hitting AoE heals, such as Revival. It may not be as a significant effect as I expect, but even if you're right, the trinket cd doesn't equal Revival's cd, so you could still lose some value from what I described. It seems better to use it when raid cds aren't running (but healing is still rough) or maybe with Revival.

    Either way, 10%? 15%?
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  10. #5090
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    That code doesn't look right. In PvE you roll one crit for +100%. I don't know why you're multiplying by crit chance 3 times.
    I won't be able to properly study the above function until later today, but wouldn't it be because multistrikes roll separately for being critical to the base heal*? So the chance of a critical heal with two critical multistrikes would be C3(MS)2 as in the above code, for example. Let me know if I've completely misunderstood you (I wouldn't be surprised if I had haha).

    *Except for Power Word: Shield, Clarity of Will and Sacred Shield. (At least, those are the ones I know of).
    Last edited by Myllior; 2015-06-16 at 01:25 AM.
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  11. #5091
    Mistweaver 6.2 Hellfire Citadel Trinkets Analysis (Mythic versions)

    Full List of HFC trinkets usable by Mistweaver (Mythic, plus one duplicate Heroic)
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/items=4.-4?fi...7%3A6%3A-8%3A0

    Spreadsheet used for BRF trinkets
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...rZE/edit#gid=0

    A Preface
    This will need to be corrected when weights are recalculated for Patch 6.2, but should be close. Specifically, the trinkets with Haste will get a little stronger, the trinkets with Int will get a little weaker, and the trinkets with Spirit will get a little weaker. These weights below assume additional mana is useful for more RJW casts (if it’s not, you’d obviously go with the best trinket that doesn’t have any Spirit or Spirit-like effects).

    I’m just doing the Mythic versions for now, but one could easily plug-and-chug the numbers for other versions. Alternatively, you could note that a 15 ilvl increase increases a trinket’s power by about 15%. Hence, a 15 ilvl decrease would decrease its power to (1/1.15)=86.957%.

    I’ll also be converting the points into a +x% healing for the totals. Note that this is not necessarily the true average healing gain of the trinket, since, as with the point totals, it includes any value bonuses or penalties due to being, for example, particularly bursty or random. In other words, the +x% healing listed is an amount of raw bonus healing (as if all your spells increased by that much) that we would equate to being equally as useful and powerful as the trinket.


    Flickering Felspark (ilvl 720 Trash drop)
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124231/f...park&bonus=567
    Straightforward.
    278 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 525.42 points
    278 Haste (weight 0.61) => 169.58 points
    278 Mastery (weight 0.34) => 94.52 points
    278 Static Spirit (weight 2.45) => 681.10 points
    TOTAL: 1470.62 points (+13.37% healing from empty gear slot)


    Chipped Soul Prism (ilvl 725 drop from ???)
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124545/c...rism&bonus=567
    Also straightforward. Edit: This math was done for the ilvl 725 version, which does not actually drop from anything, since this is from a world boss. (I was wondering what was up with the data-mined Mythic version and if it would drop from trash, but it seems not.)
    225 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 425.25 points
    225 Critical Strike (weight 0.98) => 220.50 points
    225 Haste (weight 0.61) => 137.25 points
    225 Versatility (weight 0.92) => 207.00 points
    225 Mastery (weight 0.34) => 76.50 points
    225 Multistrike (weight 1.09) => 245.25 points
    TOTAL: 1311.75 points (+11.925% healing from empty gear slot)


    Intuition’s Gift (ilvl 725 drop from Kilrogg)
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124232/i...gift&bonus=567
    On-Use effects can be useful for predefined, scripted burst windows designed as part of a boss encounter. However, often players can die outside of these burst scenarios, as well. Since on-use effects help more than static stats for the former but help less for the latter, I proposed in 6.0 that we apply no penalty or bonus to on-use effects. Although the former may sound more valuable, note that it is also often impossible to use on-use trinkets on cooldown and have them line up with scripted burst windows, which lowers its value significantly compared to static stats; one cannot simply walk into Mord- Er, I mean, one cannot simply take the average stat power of the on-use trinket and call it a day.

    However, if the player chooses not to use the effect on cooldown, that implies they placed a higher value on spreading out the effect of the trinket to specific points in the fight, despite the fact that it lowered the average gain from the trinket. That means that we can think of on-use effects as having, at minimum, the same value that a similar proc would have. However, we usually give procs a somewhat strong 15-30% unreliability penalty, since they may not be available when you would really need them. If you’re using your trinket on-cooldown, the same penalty would apply, so that value floor is actually somewhat low.

    On-use effects also have a “drop in a bucket” kind of effect when used next to another healer’s raid cooldown, where their portion of the healing is already dwarfing anything you do anyway; it would be a larger boon to use it along with Revival or during a tight healing check that cannot be covered by raid cooldowns. IMHO, the effects almost cancel on an average fight, but that met with some resistance, so I’ll give it a small 10% bonus for burstiness. In other words, you could say I apply a bonus for it assisting with the harder parts of fights, but a penalty for not getting 100% usage from it (thus lowering its average stat value). As usual, challenges to these such estimations are welcome.

    376 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 710.64 points
    376 Static Spirit (weight 2.45) => 921.20 points
    504.67 Crit (average before +10% value explained in paragraphs above, weight 0.98) => 544.03 points
    TOTAL: 2175.87 points (+19.78% healing from empty gear slot)


    Demonic Phylactery (ilvl 725 drop from Socrethar/Soulbound Construct)
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124233/d...tery&bonus=567
    “Equip: Reduces the mana cost of your spells by 736.”
    One could roughly equate this with gaining 736 mana every GCD, but we need to make some adjustments to that estimation to obtain the highest-fidelity estimate that we can. First, recall from stat weights that about 5% of our GCDs are spent channeling Mana Tea, or at least channeling Serpent CJL. Since Mana Tea and CJL do not spend mana, that lowers the value of this trinket by 5%. Chi Burst, Uplift, and EM also do not spend mana, of which the GCDs take another 20-25% of total GCDs, which lowers the effect’s value by another (additive) ~20-25%. Second, this effect applies to every tick of Soothing Mist, so the “every GCD” estimate falls apart there. To account for this, we first note that our SooM usage depends on whether we have PoM or ChiEx talented, so we’ll break it down by talent. We will want to reverse-engineer how much time was spent on SooM GCDs, to subtact that out of the estimate, and add back in how many SooM ticks we get per minute on average.

    For PoM, we see that SooM uptime is about 11-12% on average. However, of this time, only about 8% contributes to actual SooM ticks, since we’re constantly clipping the spell to move or cast other things. You can calculate this yourself by comparing your raid’s SooM uptime from your compared to the number of your SooM ticks. From logs, SooM casts are started about 2.75 times per minute. Thus, we’ll subtract another 2.75*(0.5/60) = 2.3% value from the trinket due to “lost” GCDs that could have otherwise been spent on mana-cost spells. We need to add back the 8% time casting actual SooM ticks, though, which triggers every second (before Haste) instead of every GCD, which multiplies its value by 1.5 for a total 12% bonus.

    For ChiEx, SooM’s uptime is much higher, so we expect this trinket to gain additional value. ChiEx is hard to get data for, since the highest parses even for Gruul and Oregorger use Pool of Mists, but I was able to find some decent logs. In this case, the total SooM uptime jumps to about 33%, with about 30% contributing to actual SooM healing. It’s interesting that it’s so much higher, relatively, but with SooM as a higher priority spell and taking up more of your time yet with the same amount of raid movement, and with ChiEx not interrupting SooM, I suppose one would expect more of the total SooM uptime to be effective. Anyway, that’s about 36% in the “ideal no-movement ticks-very-fast” scenario. With starting SooM channels about 10.5 times per minute, that’s 10.5*(0.5/60) = 8.75% value lost, with 1.5*0.30 = 45% added back. Holy crap, that’s a lot of mana back from SooM!

    It has also come to my attention that we only use about 90-95% of our GCDs due to downtime in the fight. These can be infrequent, but long, like sitting at full Chi with no damage to heal and not enough time to swap to Crane, so you CJL for 3-4 seconds or something, but there are also sometimes lulls of <1GCD in which we just wait to line up an Uplift pre-cast or something.

    Thus…
    Mana cost reduction (PoM) => (1 - 0.05 - 0.20 - 0.10 - 0.023 + 0.12)*736*(5/1.5)*(1+Haste%) mp5 = 1832.64*(1+Haste%) mp5 = (@8.14% Haste) 1981.82 mp5 = 961.58 Spirit (weight 1.41) => 1355.83 points
    Mana cost reduction (ChiEx) => (1 - 0.05 - 0.20 - 0.10 - 0.0875 + 0.45)*736*(5/1.5)*(1+Haste%) mp5 = 2484.00*(1+Haste%) mp5 = (@8.14% Haste) 2686.1976 mp5 = 1303.347 Spirit (weight 1.41) => 1837.72 points
    376 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 710.64 points
    376 Haste (weight 0.61) => 229.36 points
    TOTAL (PoM): 2295.83 points (+20.87% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (ChiEx): 2777.72 points (+25.25% healing from empty gear slot)


    Unstable Felshadow Emulsion
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124234/u...sion&bonus=567
    “Equip: Your heals grant the target Leech for 10 sec, equal to 0.52% of the effective healing done.”
    That means a heal of X grants 0.0052*X Leech rating, which is (0.0052/70)*X % Leech. If your heal target does Y dps+hps, then they will heal themselves for 10*Y*(0.0052/70)*X/100 = 0.00000742857 * Y * X over 10 seconds, effectively a 10 second HoT. We’ll have to account for its overhealing, since it will overheal more than average. Ignoring that for now, if a player is doing 45k DPS and 0 HPS, for example, that’s 0.3343 * X healing, which is effectively +33.43% healing. DPSers right now, at ilvl 700, are doing anywhere from about 40k-50k on Gruul (single-target fights) to 45k-70k for Beastlord Darmac or Operator Thogar (AoE DPS fights).

    For healers, it’s pretty much the same deal, with Y still equaling dps+hps, just that almost all of that is coming from HPS instead of DPS. HPS can vary from 30-36k HPS on single-target fights like Iron Maidens, Tectus, Brackenspore, and most of Flamebender, to 60-65k HPS on AoE fights like … pretty much every other fight.

    We can also see that each tank does about 65-75% of the damage of a DPSer and about 25-50% of the HPS of a healer, or sometimes up to 75% on single-target healing fights. Tank HPS varies by spec, as some tanks do less healing but take less damage, which would decrease the value of this trinket slightly if your raid is using a Warrior and a Paladin, as opposed to a DK and a Druid, for example, since the Leech only triggers from actual heals. Their steady DPS should still make the trinket decent for healing your tanks, anyway. We can use one-third the AoE HPS of a healer as a baseline estimate, which is about two-thirds of their single-target HPS, since tanks only make up 10% of a Mythic raid, and their DPS is tuned about the same, so it won’t make a large impact on the final result of the trinket’s value, but if using this trinket is a close decision for you, you could take this into account or even recalculate the math with your specific raid team’s tanks in mind.

    As for the overhealing of Leech, logs from PTR suggest that Leech from this trinket actually has less overheal than normal Leech. This shouldn’t surprise us too much because a temporary Leech buff given to players who receive effective healing means that its power is more concentrated on injured players, whereas passive Leech continues to overheal during downtime and on players who were not the targets of random raid damage. However, since it’s (effectively) a long-ish HoT, the overheal is still more significant than our total overheal. The overheal is on the order of 45%, contrasted with 70% from passive Leech and 30% for Mistweavers overall (ignoring much of the fake Uplift overheal seen on logs). Although 45% is not much more than 30%, we have to subtract the entire value of the overheal because the amount of Leech gained actually depends on your effective healing only, which means this trinket effectively double-dips on overhealing. For example, suppose you’re overhealing at 0%, heal someone for 100 raw/100 effective, and the Leech heals them for 40 raw/40 effective. Then, with all overhealing at 50%, when you heal someone for 100 raw/50 effective, you generate Leech healing of 20 raw/10 effective, which is 25% of the original Leech healing (50% of 50%), not 50%. This means this trinket can be very bad in high-overheal scenarios. I’m hoping this overheal estimate is correct from what little logs we’ve seen. If it’s a bit off, we can correct it once stuff goes live and more people get a chance to test it out in raid settings. (Normally we do not need to worry about overheal for trinkets or stat weights, since +X% healing is +X% healing regardless of overheal%. However, since this double-dips on overheal, we need to factor it in.)

    Since this is effectively a HoT that cannot be applied except by healing with effective healing, it loses some value due to being worse for burst situations. +10% healing from such a HoT is strictly worse than +10% healing to all spells because this trinket has a ramp-up for burst windows. With a 20-80 burst-to-sustained value ratio, that discounts the trinket by about 5% value; it certainly helps during burst by doing healing based on healing you did earlier in the burst window, but not quite as much as increasing your healing directly by the same amount. Having said that, the trinket also has virtually no overheal during burst (let’s say 5%), which turns out to be a boon to its value overall (contrast with +10% spellpower, which would be +10% healing inside and outside of burst). That means we’ll apply a value multiplier of (0.8*0.55 + 0.2*0.95*0.95) = 0.6205, instead of 0.55, as an overheal penalty combined with burst window value effects.

    Since performance increases by about +15% every 15 item levels, we can also establish how good this trinket might be at ilvl 700, 715, 730, and even guess at 730 with the new set bonuses and legendary rings, which are probably about another +15% together, roughly.

    Mistweaver is an AoE healer, so our chance of healing each target is roughly equal. I wonder if this will change when we play around with our HFC 2pc/4pc, but this is what i’ll go off of for now. So let’s take the mean DPS/HPS for each scenario at ilvl 700 (which is not necessarily the mean of the two endpoints):

    Single-target healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 45k + 6.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.19749 (i.e. equivalent to +19.749% HPS, or 19.749*110 = 2172.37 points)
    Single-target healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 60k + 6.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.24727
    AoE healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 45k + 5.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.23102
    AoE healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 60k + 5.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.28080

    Let’s see if there’s a big difference for 4 healers…

    Single-target healing, single-target DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 45k + 5.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.20025
    Single-target healing, AoE DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 60k + 5.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.25349
    AoE healing, single-target DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 45k + 4.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.22699
    AoE healing, AoE DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 60k + 4.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.28022

    There’s virtually no difference in the final case for swapping the number of healers (because 62.5k HPS is very close to 60k DPS), and single-target healing with AoE DPS has the largest variation at about 2.5% of the Leech proc’s value per healer swapped, which is not very significant at all.

    The trinket also has a significant amount of Spirit, which we add in to the final score:
    525 Static Spirit (weight 2.45) => 1286.25 points

    Thus, the final scores, at a few different ilvl benchmarks:

    Average raid-wide ilvl 700
    TOTAL (single-target healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 3458.62 points (+31.44% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (single-target healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 4006.22 points (+36.42% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 3827.47 points (+34.80% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 4375.05 points (+39.77% healing from empty gear slot)

    Average raid-wide ilvl 715
    TOTAL (single-target healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 3784.48 points (+34.40% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (single-target healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 4414.22 points (+40.13% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 4208.65 points (+38.26% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 4838.37 points (+43.99% healing from empty gear slot)

    Average raid-wide ilvl 730
    TOTAL (single-target healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 4159.21 points (+37.81% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (single-target healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 4883.41 points (+44.39% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 4647.01 points (+42.25% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 5371.19 points (+48.83% healing from empty gear slot)

    Average raid-wide ilvl 730 with estimated +15% from legendary rings and new strong set bonuses
    TOTAL (single-target healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 4590.15 points (+41.73% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (single-target healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 5422.98 points (+49.30% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers): 5151.13 points (+46.83% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (AoE healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers): 5983.93 points (+54.40% healing from empty gear slot)


    Sacred Draenic Incense
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124517/s...ense&bonus=567
    “Equip: Soothing Mist also heals allies around the target for 43.56% of the primary target.”
    One problem with this trinket is obviously the cleave part. It caps at 6, so let’s look at the 6-target case for now, and then we’ll evaluate its overheal towards the end of the analysis.

    Notes on this trinket’s mechanics:
    -It also activates from your Jade Serpent Statue’s Soothing Mist.
    -From the wording, it sounds like it cannot heal the original target, so it needs 7 targets to do its full healing, not 6, unlike most AoE heals.
    -I’m not sure if the trinket can proc Gift of the Serpent. For now, I’m assuming that it does and that its Mastery scalar is the same as Soothing Mists’s scalar. This will let us see if the trinket is at least potentially useful, since we’re not really sure at the time I’m writing this (spoilers: seems so). Of course, we can confirm this later and adjust the math accordingly if the assumption is wrong.
    -It should be pretty clear going into this that this trinket will only be good for stack fights, and that’s intended, or Blizzard wouldn’t have made it a cleaving effect. If it were tuned high enough for you to be able to use it for every fight, it would be too overpowered for stack fights.
    -This trinket changes your rotation dramatically at its current tuning, and that’s probably intended in order to make it strong enough to be a viable trinket.

    6 * 0.4356 = 2.6136, so this trinket is +261.36% SooM healing via an AoE cleave. Just looking at SooM+SM, ignoring the 0.5-second startup overhead for now, SooM is (344.25 + 22.197) = 359.048% spellpower per GCD, and SM is (302.00 + 14.798) = 316.798% spellpower per GCD, both including a typical amount of Mastery procs. This is a total of 675.846% spellpower per GCD. Including the 6 additional targets, the SooM healing becomes (3.6136*344.25 + 7*22.197) = 1399.3608% spellpower per GCD. SM remains at 316.798%, putting the total at 1716.1588% spellpower! Clearly, this is MUCH larger than Uplift’s ~1062.072% spellpower with Mastery (an estimate, since Mastery makes it spawn more orbs for each additional target it hits, but it’s hard to tell how many injured targets Uplift hits on average). That means that , assuming you’re just stack healing, you would want to forego Uplift and ReM entirely whenever there is healing to be done, though you would still want to use ReM for pre-hots (and HFC 2-pc, if you have it). You would also want to spend Chi on Enveloping Mist or Chi Explosion instead of Uplift, so that you don’t have to stop using Soothing Mist. Chi Explosion is the better chi spender for AoE healing than Enveloping Mist in raids, in many cases, especially if you’re already considering using a trinket that’s only good for stack healing already. Normally, since Uplift becomes essentially useless, you would just forego Pool of Mists entirely with this trinket. However, it may see some play with this trinket just because of our tier bonuses this tier...

    Whether you use EM or ChiEx, either way, your SooM uptime and percentage of healing done etc. will be about the same. We should be able to just use the SooM values for ChiEx on live servers, since ChiEx already plays like that: we have only been using it for stack healing, you can SooM during ChiEx, you cast ReM occasionally as a pre-hot and Chi generator, and SooM channels are much longer (from ~8% uptime to ~30% uptime), so ignoring the 0.5s startup time can make sense.

    SooM makes up about 10% of total healing with ChiEx stack healing, such as on Gruul or Oregorger. Taking SooM’s new HPS divided by its old HPS, subtracting out the HPS we get without the trinket, then mutliplying by 0.10, we can estimate its healing gain (keep in mind this is for 6 targets):
    0.10 * (1399.3608 / 359.048 - 1.0) = 0.10 * 2.897412 = 0.2897412
    (meaning +28.97412% total healing)

    Note that some value was gained (2.897412 vs. 2.6136), since each additional target gets 100% of the Mastery procs but only 43.56% of the SooM heal, so the actual benefit to SooM’s healing is slightly higher than six times 43.56%. Thus, by accounting for Mastery, we see about a 10.8% implicit value gain (derived from 2.897412 / 2.6136).

    Of course, since the healing is cleave-generated, it is only this strong on fights where the entire raid is stacked (or split into stacked groups of at least 7 players, in the case of this trinket). We will want to calculate its value at a few benchmark numbers of targets to see how the trinket might fare in a fight with partial stacking or spread healing, just because some newer players may acquire this trinket without any other good options from previous tiers, and in addition, for the sake of knowledge. Since the additional healing is directly proportional to the number of targets that it is, despite the Mastery effects, we can just multiply the result for 6 targets by the average number of targets hit, divided by 6.

    Based on experience from testing the Siege of Orgrimmar healing cleave trinket during progression and farm when progression wasn’t viable, I think it’s safe to say that this cleave effect will only see about 20% of its value for spread fights, about 40-50% for fights where the raid is stacked part of the time or close together, but not quite stacked. Note that, since Jade Serpent Statue may occasionally choose to heal your tanks, if your tanks are not stacked with the rest of the raid, such as on Oregorger, it’s equivalent to hitting about 5% less for your average number of players (2 tanks in a 20 man raid is 10% of the raid, and JSS does about 50% of your SooM healing. 0.10*0.5 = 0.05).

    As usual, we’ll also be applying an unreliability penalty in the cases where it does not hit all targets, depending on how many targets it hits, since you can’t necessarily count on this trinket’s healing to save dying players in a pinch if the raid is partially or fully spread, of course. These penalties are decided arbitrarily, and are intended to represent the fact that the healing from an unreliable effect is strictly worse than the same amount of average healing from a more reliable effect, so representing them with the same score just because their mean healing is identical would be misleading. The more unreliable an effect is, the larger the penalty we apply. Here are the penalties I used. NOTE: Since these are arbitrary penalties, it may be helpful to point out that the “+x% healing from empty gear slot” that I say at the bottom is, in actuality, the mean healing increase, but including these penalties.
    6 players: 0% unreliablity penalty
    5.7 players: 2.5% unreliability penalty
    5 players: 5% unrelaibility penalty
    3 players: 15% unreliability penalty
    1.2 players: 30% unreliability penalty

    NOTE: Multistrike has a lower stat weight while using this trinket for the same reason it does when using ChiEx (the Jade Mist procs are not very useful (-20% value of Multistrike).

    NOTE: Spirit has a lower stat weight while using this trinket because it brings the healing of SooM+SM much closer to RJW, despite the same mana costs (Roughly -65% value of Spirit). However, this estimate is inaccurate if your Spirit is too low to even support no use of RJW at all (which may happen; the new suggested rotation spends more mana faster on average). Without spending hours figuring out a new Spirit stat weight for this trinket, I’m guessing it’s optimal to strive to at least have enough Spirit to support the new rotation without using SCK/RJW. Any more Spirit than that can use the new weight (0.35 times the standard weight).

    NOTE: This trinket and the HFC 4pc are somewhat mutually exclusive gains. The trinket seems to outweigh the 4pc compared to an empty slot, but since you're then essentially not benefiting from the 4pc as much as you could. Essentially, subtract the amount of 4pc value lost from the new rotation from the scores below. (Ultimately, looking at the totals below, since you’d subtract about 13.3% healing for EM and about 20% healing for ChiEx, it doesn’t look like this trinket is viable with 4pc.)

    TOTAL (mean 6 players -- think Ultraxion): 3187.16 points (+28.97% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (mean 5.7 players -- think Oregorger (phase 1)): 2952.11 points (+26.84% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (mean 5 players -- think Gruul): 2523.17 points (+22.94% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (mean 3 players -- think Oregorger (average over whole fight) or Mythic Blast Furnace): 1354.54 points (+12.31% healing from empty gear slot)
    TOTAL (mean 1.2 players -- think Beastlord Darmac): 446.20 points (+4.06% healing from empty gear slot)
    Last edited by Geodew; 2015-06-16 at 05:37 PM.
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  12. #5092
    Nice job as usual Geodew.

    Did anyone start to compile some tentative bis list with the various ilvl so far?

    The warforged/socket game is going to be fun this tier, stat weight will never be as important.
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  13. #5093
    Herald of the Titans Hinalover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Chipped Soul Prism (ilvl 725 ??? drop)
    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124545/c...rism&bonus=567
    Also straightforward.
    225 Intellect (weight 1.89) => 425.25 points
    225 Critical Strike (weight 0.98) => 220.50 points
    225 Haste (weight 0.61) => 137.25 points
    225 Versatility (weight 0.92) => 207.00 points
    225 Mastery (weight 0.34) => 76.50 points
    225 Multistrike (weight 1.09) => 245.25 points
    TOTAL: 1311.75 points (+11.925% healing from empty gear slot)
    Actually since this only drops from Supreme Lord Kazzak (the new world boss in Tannan Jungle), the ONLY version that would drop would be the 695 version:

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124545/c...-prism&bonus=0

    You cannot have a Mythic drop off a boss who only has one difficulty, unless he is part of the Mythic raid.
    Last edited by Hinalover; 2015-06-16 at 06:32 AM.

  14. #5094
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Myllior View Post
    I won't be able to properly study the above function until later today, but wouldn't it be because multistrikes roll separately for being critical to the base heal*? So the chance of a critical heal with two critical multistrikes would be C3(MS)2 as in the above code, for example. Let me know if I've completely misunderstood you (I wouldn't be surprised if I had haha).

    *Except for Power Word: Shield, Clarity of Will and Sacred Shield. (At least, those are the ones I know of).
    Oh, yeah, of course.

    - - - Updated - - -

    BTW, Hamlet tells me Bad Luck Protection for RPPM is actually +13% increased proc count, on average, but they pretend it's only 9% to "be generous" with the procs. So something with 0.92 PPM will actually proc about 0.92*1.13 = 1.0396 times per minute, and increased by Haste in cases where it wouldn't make it double-dip on Haste (so Spirit procs are increased by Haste, but not int procs).
    I moved these posts off of the trinket post, since they were mucking it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hinalover View Post
    Actually since this only drops from Supreme Lord Kazzak (the new world boss in Tannan Jungle), the ONLY version that would drop would be the 695 version:

    http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=124545/c...-prism&bonus=0

    You cannot have a Mythic drop off a boss who only has one difficulty, unless he is part of the Mythic raid.
    Figured as much. Wasn't sure what was up with the datamined Mythic version. Good to have confirmation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spotnick View Post
    Nice job as usual Geodew.

    Did anyone start to compile some tentative bis list with the various ilvl so far?

    The warforged/socket game is going to be fun this tier, stat weight will never be as important.
    Thanks! Hope it's all correct. Seems to match intuition, so should be close at least.

    I think we can just use Ask Mr. Robot except for trinkets. AMR will automatically assign 4pc to BiS, which is correct this tier, and then work out what the best off-piece is, etc. I like AMR, even for its flaws. Means you just have to wait for the datamining and then click a button, then (probably) replace trinkets.
    Last edited by Geodew; 2015-06-16 at 06:55 AM.
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  15. #5095
    Epic! Volibear's Avatar
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    Thanks a bunch again for your work Geodew, it's always very appreciated
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  16. #5096
    Warchief Supliftz's Avatar
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    I don't think demonic phylactary will stay @736, rumors were talking about 444 for the mythic level.

    Anyway biggest thing to think about trinket wise is ACA vs IG. They're about as good as each other, and you'll probably switch them around depending on your need for rjw spam, stacked vs spread requires, burst requirements, etc.

  17. #5097
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post
    Single-target healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 45k + 6.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.19749 (i.e. equivalent to +19.749% HPS, or 19.749*110 = 2172.37 points)
    Single-target healing, AoE DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 60k + 6.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.24727
    AoE healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 45k + 5.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.23102
    AoE healing, single-target DPS, 5 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(14.4 * 60k + 5.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.28080

    Let’s see if there’s a big difference for 4 healers…

    Single-target healing, single-target DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 45k + 5.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.20025
    Single-target healing, AoE DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 60k + 5.33 * 33k)/20 = 0.25349
    AoE healing, single-target DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 45k + 4.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.22699
    AoE healing, single-target DPS, 4 healers: 0.6205*0.00000742857*(15.4 * 60k + 4.67 * 62.5k)/20 = 0.28022
    I think the last line of both of these you mean the AoE dps? As always thanks a lot for the math, really helpful to have such thorough explanations of the trinkets.
    Last edited by mmocbbd29f1a3b; 2015-06-16 at 10:28 AM.

  18. #5098
    Quote Originally Posted by Geodew View Post

    I think we can just use Ask Mr. Robot except for trinkets. AMR will automatically assign 4pc to BiS, which is correct this tier, and then work out what the best off-piece is, etc. I like AMR, even for its flaws. Means you just have to wait for the datamining and then click a button, then (probably) replace trinkets.
    AMR is setting up HFC items this week I believe. Did the stat weight changed at all? Not sure I remember any balance change for monks anyways.
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  19. #5099
    I believe Geodew has said they changed a little but not all that much. Mostly I think that haste's value is going up a little because of the abundance of spirit we have right now.

  20. #5100
    Stat weights will change slightly every time the BiS list changes drastically because you have to recalculate the diminishing returns, which pushes down the value of your best stats slightly.

    I'm also going to add a burst-to-sustained weight instead of just 100% sustained. In other words, the weights are for total HPS right now, which doesn't give Haste any bonus for being slightly better for burst than crit and multistrike.

    Effects on Spirit's diminishing returns also needs to be added. At some point, in theory, as you get more RJW casts, making your existing RJW casts stronger is better than just more RJW casts. Currently, that effect isn't accounted for. Since the weight was calculated for a monk in ilvl ~660, it could be a bit off by now, and especially going into the next tier.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Atacamite View Post
    I think the last line of both of these you mean the AoE dps? As always thanks a lot for the math, really helpful to have such thorough explanations of the trinkets.
    Yep, thanks

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Supliftz View Post
    Anyway biggest thing to think about trinket wise is ACA vs IG. They're about as good as each other, and you'll probably switch them around depending on your need for rjw spam, stacked vs spread requires, burst requirements, etc.
    ACA? Auto-Claving Autoclave? :P At least I assume you mean Auto-Repairing Autoclave?
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