Disc stat weights

[PosPosPos]

Solace generates ressources, so does evocation, now we all know mages deal in damage instead of healing so that must mean evocation is a great damage spell!

We aren't talking about Solace's mana return though, and AA is indeed a secondary resource that directly affects your HPS when you activate it. Apples and oranges.

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What part of it is semantics and what relation does renew have to the example in question. Renew is not a CD and the HoT part does not take any extra casting time from you. It is fire and forget. If renew was a CD that buffed another spell that you could chain cast then yes the value of haste would depend on the difference between the TOTAL HPCT of renew (including the HoT) and the BUFFED HPCT of the second spell that benefits from the renew cast.

Umm ok, the latter is described exactly as how Solace works when you utilize it as an AA generator in conjunction with it's base effects.

Again you are making the same mistake. Solace isn't a spell that generates a secondary infinite resource. AA can only be cast every 30s and its duration is 18s regardless of how much haste you have. This is not a spell that generates a proc with no CD that only buffs one spell no matter how much haste you have. Since the duration of the buff is not affected by haste it automatically means you can squeeze more spells into it using the haste. If haste meant you could use AA more frequently or with extra buffs that would be an extra benefit above the gain in casting time that you already get from haste. Essentially it would make haste better. What you are thinking of is procs like brain freeze procing from a CD like ball of frost. Those don't scale with haste, and can potentially reduce the value, but they still cannot be treated as part of the original CD that procd them when calculating the value of haste.

I don't see why you need to give a lengthy version of how Solace works when you gave a concise version in your earlier statement "If renew was a CD that buffed another spell that you could chain cast then yes the value of haste would depend on the difference between the TOTAL HPCT of renew (including the HoT) and the BUFFED HPCT of the second spell that benefits from the renew cast".

Here is a quick calculation.

Here is sequence solace (1 stack) pop AA and then cast 4x PWS. With zero haste this takes you 7.5 seconds. All the PWS are boosted by AA

Now add 20% haste. You can get 1 solace and 5 PWS (boosted) in 7.5seconds. That means you are getting 1 extra (boosted PWS) cast as the bonus

Now the nominal value of 20% haste is 20% of whatever you cast before so this is equal to 0.2 of a solace and 0.8 of a boosted PWS. However since 20% of a solace is much smaller than 20% of a boosted PWS (0.2solace + 0.8 boosted PWS) < 1 boosted PWS. So the value of haste for this sequence is MORE than 20%. I.e. the fact that you have a low HPCT CD there BOOSTS the value of haste. The fact that you have AA in the sequence makes the difference even bigger.

So this isn't just semantics. Your statement contains a serious error. Not only does archangel not make haste bad for solace, it makes it better. Without AA you would be gaining the difference between 20% of a normal solace and 20% of a normal PWS. With AA you are gaining the difference between 20% of a normal solace and 20% of a boosted PWS. The cold hard maths that don't care about feelings or pride dictate the following:



The text in the quote describes how CDs behave with haste. This is definitely correct.

Your mistake is you are improperly assigning the value of AA to PW:S instead of to Solace(or whichever generator you care to use as part of your model). PW:S doesn't generate AA; Solace does, and until you recognize that, your entire premise will always be wrong.

This is not even going into the fact that you are giving an example of 4 PW:S cast in a duration of one AA, artificially deflating the theoretical value of Solace by erroneously compressing the buff duration.

[Deleted]

We aren't talking about Solace's mana return though, and AA is indeed a secondary resource that directly affects your HPS when you activate it. Apples and oranges.

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Umm ok, the latter is described exactly as how Solace works when you utilize it as an AA generator in conjunction with it's base effects.




I don't see why you need to give a lengthy version of how Solace works when you gave a concise version in your earlier statement "If renew was a CD that buffed another spell that you could chain cast then yes the value of haste would depend on the difference between the TOTAL HPCT of renew (including the HoT) and the BUFFED HPCT of the second spell that benefits from the renew cast".





Your mistake is you are improperly assigning the value of AA to PW:S instead of to Solace(or whichever generator you care to use as part of your model). PW:S doesn't generate AA; Solace does, and until you recognize that, your entire premise will always be wrong.

This is not even going into the fact that you are giving an example of 4 PW:S cast in a duration of one AA, artificially deflating the theoretical value of Solace by erroneously compressing the buff duration.

Oh man, oh man. You really need to stop and think. Here is what you cast without haste. 1 solace and 4 PWS with AA on. Here is what you cast wihtout haste 1 solace and 5 PWS with AA on. 1 solace and 5 PWS buffed with AA are more than 20% bugger than 1 solace and 4 PWS.

[PosPosPos]

Oh man, oh man. You really need to stop and think. Here is what you cast without haste. 1 solace and 4 PWS with AA on. Here is what you cast wihtout haste 1 solace and 5 PWS with AA on. 1 solace and 5 PWS buffed with AA are more than 20% bugger than 1 solace and 4 PWS.

Unfortunately, making up a rotation that has little to no relation in a practical setting does not serve to drive your argument - if anything, it works against it.

Perhaps you should ask around what exactly does a disc priest should and tend to cast during AA - and no, it's not just 4-5 PW:S, it's a such a huge waste of AA.

[Noradin]

We aren't talking about Solace's mana return though, and AA is indeed a secondary resource that directly affects your HPS when you activate it. Apples and oranges.

I was talking about evangelism in the case of solace - which is an exceptionally lame secondary ressource with three gainers and one spender.

And yes evocation for a arcane mage can also directly affect their dps when they use it. It is still not doing that dps itself only enabling it.
It would loose that part if you were to sit on evangelsim stacks - which you could. It can also loose that part if you are forced to do something else after you have five stacks of it. It is only a ressource and thus only representing the possibility to use it not the value you'd get out of it itself.

You are not calculating the mount of PW:S you could cast with your starting mana pool call it your healing and then never show up for the fight are you?

[Deleted]

Unfortunately, making up a rotation that has little to no relation in a practical setting does not serve to drive your argument - if anything, it works against it.

Perhaps you should ask around what exactly does a disc priest should and tend to cast during AA - and no, it's not just 4-5 PW:S, it's a such a huge waste of AA.

It does not matter the principle is the same. So my premise is only wrong because AA is not 5seconds? The important thing is that PWS is more HPS than solace. If you do other stuff with even more HPS then haste will STILL have better value because the HPCT of solace is low. I am specifically skiping things like including borrowed time, because it makes no difference. I can do the same thing with selling fruit instead of heals and the principle remains the same.

If you want to see the numbers for a 1solace-AA(1stack)+12 PWS rotation then here it is:

haste	0	23.1%	%spower
solace	1	1	167.445
PWS	12	15	564

I picked 23% haste and ignored borrowed time again to make the numbers integers. I don't assign any values to anything. I simply calculate what I would cast with the extra haste.

Both rotations take 19.5 seconds. The 0 haste rotation produces 7273.845% of spell power as healing while the 23.1% haste rotation produces 9050.445% of spellpower as healing that is an improvement of 24.4244963% from 23.1% haste.

If you dont trigger AA then the numbers are 6935.445% of spellpower for no haste and 8627.445% for the 23.1% haste. An improvement of 24.3964158%. Triggering AA benefits the hasted rotation more. Which is exactly the same as we observe with the made up rotation I did before.

You might say its only 1%, but your original premise is that solace is a high HPCT spell because of AA and hence haste has reduced value.

THIS IS IRRESPECTIVE OF THE SPELL SELECTION AS LONG AS WHAT YOU CAST OUTSIDE SOLACE (including spells buffed by AA) HAS MORE HPCT THAN SOLACE ITSELF.

Trying to hide behind bullshit arguments like your rotation isn't real is not going to work. Your premise is that solace is a high HPCT spell because it gives you AA. If that is true then this should hold for ANY rotation and for any value as long as the combined value of solace and the AA you cast exceeds the value of the rotation without solace and AA. In fact it should hold for any spell like solace and any buff similar to AA regardless of the values. Since we can clearly find a rotation where AA and solace combined are a net HPS benefit and yet haste still has better than nominal value it is clear that your premise is wrong.

Now lets put a nail on your coffin. You claimed that AA should be attributable to the spell that procs it. That should hold for any spell like solace and any buff like AA and hence the value of haste should decrease if the combined value of the procing CD spell is higher than the other spells and increase if the procing CD spell's combined value is lower than the other spells.

Let us invent two spells both have a cast time of 2seconds, one heals for 10 the other for 12 and the first one gives you a buff for 10s that increases healing by 1%.

You can cast 1 of spell 1 and 4 of spell 2 in a 10s rotation. That gives you a total healing of 10+48*1.01 = 58.48. With 20% haste you will cast 1 of spell 1 and 5 of spell 4 so that gives you 10+60*1.01 = 70.6. That is an improvement of 20.725%, which is better than 20%. This is agrees with your model. Spell 1 is lower HPCT than spell 2 if even we add all the healing produced by the buff to spell 1. Hence you are spending less time casting a lower HPCT spell, making haste more valuable.

Now lets change the buff so that its 1000% instead of 1%

With 0 haste your healing is of 10+4*10*12 = 490. With 20% haste your healing is now 610 healing which is a benefit of 22.4% clearly higher than the 20% haste you have. This does not agree with your premise. Since the CD is now much more healing than spell 2, haste should have a dramatically lower value. The opposite occurs. It is crystal clear that attributing the healing generated by the buff to spell 1 for the purpose of determining whether haste has a lower or higher value for this CD results results in incorrect mathematical behaviour.

It makes not an iota of difference that these are made up spells. This is a basic principle so it should hold for any spell that fits the criteria (i.e. that the spell itself and its buff should exceed the HPS of the other spells you cast). Clearly it is wrong. Your premise is wrong, mine is correct. You can admit it, get your head out of backside and learn something that will help you in understanding how haste works with CDs or you can keep your head in your backside and tell yourself that somehow I must have made a mistake.

Instead of posting dumb one-liners I challenge you to try any rotation you like and show that haste results in lost healing with solace, as long as you don't specifically pick a haste value on the wrong side of a breakpoint. If you find the maths too hard I am happy to do it for you. Just pick the spells.

If you want to see the inverse behaviour try a high HPS CD that debuffs any spells cast after for a set period of time. You will find that haste has lower value even if the debuff results in a net loss in healing compared to not using the CD at all (again the opposite of your premise).