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  1. #361
    According to Simcraft, Prot Paladins are only tanking 50% of the total damage per second we take. They're also healing/absorbing for almost (665) and surpassing us later on (695). Are Prot Paladins just in a really good spot? I think its absolutely insane to see our DTPS and have similar healing/absorbs to a class taking half as much damage as us. Any thoughts guy?

  2. #362
    In real play Prot Pally does about 5-7k hps. Multistrike + Sacred Shield is all that actually have. Those sim are including every bit of healing while doing minimal damage.

    DK in real play is doing at minimum 20k and upwards of 40k HPS.

    Don't use sims to compare tanks.

  3. #363
    Scarab Lord
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    In reality they aren't doing as much healing, taking less damage sure though.

    Problem with protection paladins is how good seraphim is, it's absolutely insane.

    Also the fact that they can do more damage than some classes/specializations if they optimize correctly. It's a wonder they have done numerous balance changes but aren't addressing how strong protection paladin single target damage is. AoE/Cleave is different as tanks are suppose to be strong in those situations, but it's rather silly in the current games model that a tanking class can have strong single target damage compared to other DPS classes.

  4. #364
    Mythic butcher is fun. Doesn't really do enough dmg tbh. Was kinda sad but it was fun doing 25k dps and 41k hps though I wana do that boss more.

  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    Mythic butcher is fun. Doesn't really do enough dmg tbh. Was kinda sad but it was fun doing 25k dps and 41k hps though I wana do that boss more.
    I dunno, that's all relative. I mean, if I looked at your gearscore as truth (I don't know, I don't bother looking stuff like that up) I could see Mythic butcher being easier, than say walking into Heroic Highmaul with just barely there ilvl630 gear score with mismatched stats on the first day.

    The one thing I wonder about though is that possibly they didn't tune the damage up higher on purpose because to be frank, we DK's don't scale up with higher damage as well as other tanks can. (at least not at progression level)

  6. #366
    Just based on our kill its obvious warriors are way worse than DK for butcher. I took 62k dmg per sec. Healed 41k myself. Our warrior took 39k dmg per sec. Healed for 10k himself, but used every external our raid had to offer throughout the fight and had 48% uptime on shield block(50% is max) and almost 30% shield block uptime as well(26 uses).

    DK seems to be in a better spot than a lot of people make it to be. DKs might have sucked on progression more so than before, but it feels like they atm are in a better place than most tanks.

    Even looking at most Prot Pally logs they are taking about 40k dmg and healing for about 10k.

    At least to me DK seems by far ahead of the rest of the tanks overall, but paladins take the better dps win though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Resurgo View Post
    I dunno, that's all relative. I mean, if I looked at your gearscore as truth (I don't know, I don't bother looking stuff like that up) I could see Mythic butcher being easier, than say walking into Heroic Highmaul with just barely there ilvl630 gear score with mismatched stats on the first day.

    The one thing I wonder about though is that possibly they didn't tune the damage up higher on purpose because to be frank, we DK's don't scale up with higher damage as well as other tanks can. (at least not at progression level)
    Ya I guess I also didn't walk into Heroic highmaul at 630 I was around 653 or so before raid.

    Idk biggest reason I like my DK more than the other 4 tanks atm, which ive done at least a highmaul clear on them all, is DK can self sustain whereas the other tanks literally just die after less than 10 seconds of no heals. At least DK outside of maybe a 6+ stack fungal growth eater on bracken can just live for a long time with a random renew and rejuv.

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jellospally View Post
    Idk biggest reason I like my DK more than the other 4 tanks atm, which ive done at least a highmaul clear on them all, is DK can self sustain whereas the other tanks literally just die after less than 10 seconds of no heals. At least DK outside of maybe a 6+ stack fungal growth eater on bracken can just live for a long time with a random renew and rejuv.
    It's so rewarding to play well. You're constantly required to save yourself and be responsible and active, evaluating and adapting to new threats and damage intake. Very reminiscent of how monk tanking felt (thematically) inside of Challenge Modes last expansion.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Furtylol View Post
    It's so rewarding to play well. You're constantly required to save yourself and be responsible and active, evaluating and adapting to new threats and damage intake. Very reminiscent of how monk tanking felt (thematically) inside of Challenge Modes last expansion.
    And you thought I was just trolling :P

    So yeah in all seriousness, Imperator died (#weeksbehind #casuality #lolUS). I should actually be updating the guide over the next week in between working on kill videos. Hype?
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  9. #369
    I heard you nigs finished kams and tv spammin dat realid earlier grats nigs. We should get it sooner or later almost getting to T2 after first day.

  10. #370
    Deleted
    I'd like to ask a question about Versatility.

    I've been thinking of getting into tanking on my DK, and have been looking into the stat weights. I'm very much a casual player, so having the absolute best gear is not nearly as important for my enjoyment of the game, but I do like to understand why the gear I choose is good for me.

    So what I've done is set up a spreadsheet to act as a model for my dps, healing, and damage taken. For the most part it has gone well, but one thing I'm consistently running into is that Versatility keeps coming out as substantially better than Mastery for survivability, despite its high cost.

    Point-for-point, the numbers I'm getting suggest that Mastery and Versatility provide very similar Death Strike healing, and that Versatility's damage reduction is stronger than Mastery's extra absorption. I'm getting Versatility as over 20% more valuable than Mastery per point, and it gets stronger when you're taking more damage. The tipping point seems to be at about the point where you start taking 15,000 dps, after damage reduction from armor has been applied (ie somewhere in the region of 35k base boss damage).

    Now, it's incredibly unlikely that I have magically stumbled across something that dedicated raiders and theorycrafters haven't already thought of. When this guide, Icy Veins, and SimCraft all tell me I'm wrong, I assume that I'm wrong. I must be missing something about the way that things work, but I can't for the life of me figure out what that is.

    So my question really is, what is it about the way that Mastery and Versatility work that makes every guide rate Mastery so much more highly than Versatility? Is it really more powerful for pure survivability? Am I overestimating base boss dps? Have people just decided that the survivability difference is sufficiently small that the extra dps from Mastery makes it more worthwhile?

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by YouGotTheTouch View Post
    I'd like to ask a question about Versatility.

    I've been thinking of getting into tanking on my DK, and have been looking into the stat weights. I'm very much a casual player, so having the absolute best gear is not nearly as important for my enjoyment of the game, but I do like to understand why the gear I choose is good for me.

    So what I've done is set up a spreadsheet to act as a model for my dps, healing, and damage taken. For the most part it has gone well, but one thing I'm consistently running into is that Versatility keeps coming out as substantially better than Mastery for survivability, despite its high cost.

    Point-for-point, the numbers I'm getting suggest that Mastery and Versatility provide very similar Death Strike healing, and that Versatility's damage reduction is stronger than Mastery's extra absorption. I'm getting Versatility as over 20% more valuable than Mastery per point, and it gets stronger when you're taking more damage. The tipping point seems to be at about the point where you start taking 15,000 dps, after damage reduction from armor has been applied (ie somewhere in the region of 35k base boss damage).

    Now, it's incredibly unlikely that I have magically stumbled across something that dedicated raiders and theorycrafters haven't already thought of. When this guide, Icy Veins, and SimCraft all tell me I'm wrong, I assume that I'm wrong. I must be missing something about the way that things work, but I can't for the life of me figure out what that is.

    So my question really is, what is it about the way that Mastery and Versatility work that makes every guide rate Mastery so much more highly than Versatility? Is it really more powerful for pure survivability? Am I overestimating base boss dps? Have people just decided that the survivability difference is sufficiently small that the extra dps from Mastery makes it more worthwhile?
    You are likely doing something wrong with your spreadsheet, like a math error (and I don't generally recommend doing that type of linear math for figuring out stats, as simulations are literally 100 times better for that sort of thing).

    Just to do some napkin math here:

    Versatility gives 1% healing and 0.5% damage reduction per 130 rating. Mastery gives 1% AP and 2% Blood Shield per 110 rating.

    Just ignoring the base amounts of each (ie super napkin math), it's basically impossible for Vers to ever pull ahead (esp by 20%), as Blood shield actually counts for a lot. DS base heal is 100% based on mastery, so increasing AP by 1% is equal to increasing healing by 1%. And the Blood shield 'double dips' that amount, as increasing the healing via AP also increases the healing that is converted into shield by the shield %. You may be underestimating how much DS healing you are doing and therefore underestimating Blood Shield's effect.

    Slightly less super napkin math:

    You have 13 points of mastery base from the base amount + mastery buff (which you passively grant to yourself so it's constant), so you have 13% AP and 26% Blood shield without a single point of mastery on gear. You also have 3% Vers from the vers buff, which is 3% healing and 1.5% DR without any Vers on gear.

    So adding 220 Mastery vs 220 vers in this situation you get: 220/110 = 2% + 113% = 115%/113% AP = 1.01769 healing done via Mastery, and 220/130 = 1.69% from vers = 104.69%/103% = 1.0164 as much healing done via Vers. So it is less, even with the much higher base of Mastery 'devaluing' mastery (it doesn't actually devalue, there is no 'DR' to mastery, it is just because I am looking at %s, adding a flat amount to a higher % has the same ABSOLUTE value, but a lower % increase making Vers look better).

    So you do less healing with Vers, even in a pretty skewed scenario. If you had VERY large amounts of mastery and no vers, yeah Vers would have a higher overall impact on healing done. However we haven't even looked at shield.

    While it's really hard to value Blood Shield (you need to have a DS/min, and average DS size to work with), that 220 Mastery rating is adding another 4% Blood shield. This is 4% on top of the base shield + the base healing. So if you add all that up, you go from 113% AP (and therefore healing) and 26% Blood Shield to 115% AP, and 30% Blood Shield. Note that the shield takes into account the base AP, so they are actually multiplied, not added together. Therefore you go from 113% * 1.26 = 142.38% total to 115%*1.30 = 149.5%. Which is 149.5%/142.38% = almost exactly 1.05, or 5% increase to overall 'healing' (counting absorbs as heals), while Versatility is still sitting at about 1.64% increase above. Now obviously that is ignoring the damage reduction of Vers, but like I said to calculate that, I need a DS/min and Average DS size. However lets try anyway: practical experience tells me you can 'heal' about 50-60% of the damage you take, so increasing that by 5% vs by 1.64% and then reducing damage taken by 220/130 * 0.5 = 0.846% DR would have less effect.

    More specifically: 100% * 1.00 - 50% * 1.05 = 47.5% vs 100% * 0.991538 - 50% * 1.0164 = 48.3338%. That looks kind of close, but then consider that the 'baseline' is that you take about 50% if you follow the basic assumption of 50% healing. So 47.5%/50% = 0.95, or 95% as much damage 'taken' total (including healing) as before, with the 220 Mastery, and 48.3338%/50% = 96.6676% as much with the 220 Versatility. And again, that is with a large base amount of Mastery, so that situation already normally favours Versatility. If you had a lot of Vers, the ratio would be even worse.

    Ultimately all this napkin math however means absolutely nothing. Every sim I have run completely favors Mastery, and just looking at how much I heal vs damage taken in a fight, Vers would never possibly outstrip Mastery (in any reasonable gear set at least, obviously if you had like 10000 mastery and 0 vers, Vers would pull ahead).

    As a general thing btw, you should be looking at bosses that deal 300-400k base damage before armour if you want to make comparisons, as Mythic bosses in Highmaul hit for about that much from what I've seen).

    To answer questions: Vers generally pulls very very slightly ahead on DPS, for the exact reason that you already have a lot of 'base' mastery as described above. Also Vers isn't a bad survival stat. It's actually not far off Mastery, and it's not a bad stat to have at all. I just don't like it because I prefer to have control over my survival, and Haste gives you a lot of control (and is not a bad mitigation stat even on paper). If you watch a good DK play on certain fights you can really see how powerful it is to just have Death Strikes available more often, even if they are weaker, as you would often run into overhealing issues anyways on those fights.

    Edit: Something else to consider: about half of Versatility's benefit basically relies on you always taking damage the entire fight (the damage reduction), while Mastery's benefit can be 'saved' for when you are actually tanking. On many fights, this is an important point; you aren't always taking damage (or aren't always taking more then just HoTs ect will cover on their own). This is a 'hidden' benefit of Mastery over Vers, and this is pretty much why even if Vers was a little better them Mastery you would still never stack it in most cases. It's also why I like Haste more then Versatility even though numerically Vers slightly wins out; Haste actually works 100% of the time, if you bank resources correctly, Vers doesn't always function fully.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2014-12-23 at 11:25 PM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  12. #372
    Deleted
    You may be underestimating how much DS healing you are doing and therefore underestimating Blood Shield's effect.
    I did read the rest, and thanks for taking the time to give me such a detailed answer, but I think this single sentence solved my problem all on its own.

    I'd worked in AP scaling, rune regen times due to Haste, RP generation due to Multistrike, average time between Blood Tap procs, and so on, but I realised that I had completely ignored Resolve in my calculations. SimCraft tells me that my average Resolve would be around 190, which means I'd be doing almost 3 times as much Death Strike healing as I had previously calculated. This significantly bumps up the value of the absorb portion of Mastery, to the point where it notably outperforms Versatility.

    I was indeed underestimating the effect of Blood Shield, and that explains why my numbers were so wrong. Thanks again for the help.

    As a general thing btw, you should be looking at bosses that deal 300-400k base damage before armour if you want to make comparisons, as Mythic bosses in Highmaul hit for about that much from what I've seen).
    We may technically be undead, but now I'm officially scared for my life.
    Last edited by mmoce77b3a07dc; 2014-12-24 at 12:44 AM.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Mionelol View Post
    Keep in mind, Vers is a great stat against magical damage where Blood Shield is absolutely useless. If you're tanking, say, Mar'gok elementals exclusively (like a lot of DKs do in 3-tank strats), then Versatility is great. (I rerolled my crafted items to Crit/Versatility against said elementals)

    there's also the possibility that we'll eventually end up later in the expansion to a point where stacking Versatility will result in hilarious DRs and it might become the best stat for that reason alone. This isnt' really relevant to today's game though.
    The first point isn't really true unless ALL the damage taken is magical and you are actually overcapping shield. Imperator is a great example of where Mastery is actually great; you tank the adds but also the boss at the same time during periods, which means the blood shield isn't going to waste. If you take 200k magic damage and 200k physical and had 100k blood shield, it isn't like the Mastery isn't helping you as much; all of it's effect is being used (and obviously Mastery just straight up gives healing even against pure magic damage, although obviously by itself that effect is not sufficient). It's actually even better to have Mastery for that fight, as you are in the most danger tanking the boss + the replicated adds or Reaver + all the anomalies, and it is slightly better to bank shield for that. Versatility doesn't have much point of that fight; you are only in danger in certain periods, while Versatility by it's nature is best against consistent damage, which isn't even close to true on Imperator.

    And if you are just playing 'offtank' (never tank the boss for extended periods + adds) then you should be stacking all MS/Crit anyways for that fight for obvious reasons (youll never need survivability for JUST the adds). Versatility never really comes into play.

    The second is true, like I said if you have crazy amounts of Mastery, Versatility becomes relatively better.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2014-12-24 at 03:12 AM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  14. #374
    You are right that there are adds all the time, but 1/3 the time they are stunned, and half of the remaining time they aren't in melee range (because you can kite them a little, neither ench or blood aoe is affected by having them move around a little). Then you still have AMS for part of the time they actually do hit you. That is definitely not continuous tanking, and I still don't agree with Versatility because of that at all. But honestly it barely matters, it's not like you can really pick your stats in WoD, you pretty much just use what you are lucky enough to get (or just what the only item in the instance has).

    As for Resolve, well 150% isn't as low as you think. 240% is the hard cap, and you don't really get much above 200% on that fight very often even tanking everything at once other then on the Reaver. Doing 340% of healing (at cap) vs 250% isn't as much of a difference considering how much less damage you are taking in the latter. The 70 - 0 gib from adds is an issue; trust me I know since boss + adds is a 100 to 0 kill every single time unless RNG favours you. But Vers, or even a bit of gear or Resolve doesn't solve that problem (a few % DR, or more healing doesn't solve a burst death obviously); limited kiting (more specifically, a wide circle around the boss so you can keep him on you but not the adds)/cooldowns do. Likely you just were more used to the situation and played the situation better when you came back in.

    As for Reaver, I handled it with 1 external on myself (near the end with boss + reaver where it's really critical damage on both tanks), and 2 on the other tank (saving IBF as well for the p3 to p4 push). I had him most of the phase; infact the whole point of the way it was handled was to save as many externals as possible for p3 and be able to therefore carry some into the p3 to p4 transition with the 50 bazillion adds. But that is a different strat issue I guess: I did as much of the tanking as possible on that fight for my guild for various reasons and it probably skews my perspective on it.

    Either way it's nice to hear a different point of view, as our strats differed a lot from the sounds of it, and it gives me a better idea about the fight to see it from another direction. Having a discussion about stuff like this really helps me put into words more effectively what I am doing subconsciously because I actually have to think about it more and compare.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2014-12-24 at 08:55 AM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  15. #375
    Has anyone else been playing with Breath of Sindragosa recently? I took it for fun last night and the damage can be pretty crazy. Maintaining it for a minute+ is quite feasible at 670+ with ERW, which creates some nice single target burst (on the order of 40k dps for a minute long segment with full consumables/raid buffs). I still wouldn't use this for aoe fights (tectus, mar'gok, ko'ragh, etc.) but it seems to work well in single target situations - in fact, I was mostly thinking about using it on mythic butcher. Any thoughts?
    Last edited by simetrik; 2014-12-24 at 05:28 PM.

  16. #376
    We had like five enrage wipes on Twins (missing a few key members due to holiday, but yeah, we're bad) and I have been looking for ways to improve my damage. The obvious is more blood boils but most of the top logs for that fight have BoS instead of defile. I'll probably try it out on Sunday if we have enough people and can try again.

  17. #377
    Twins? On normal we've just tanked them on top of each other in the centre of the room for the AoE. Have the tank pull the one boss away from the centre for when he does whirlwind, then back in he goes afterwards.

    Dunno if that's how everyone does it or not. If you don't, though, that might help your DPS output.

  18. #378
    Deleted
    Anyone else's "tanking experience" feeling really shit mostly due to the fact you almost cant properly move/position any mobs? The responsivenss is totally out of hand (Looking at you, Butcher and Margok with your silly knockbacks).

    @Jello ofc Butcher wont hit you hard when youre at 676ilvl... Try 669

  19. #379
    I'm fairly certain Troxism said Butcher was easily doable (without externals) at 667 ilevel.


    It's not too bad on Butcher (for me) but yeah Mar'gok can be annoying

  20. #380
    Quote Originally Posted by Saiyendra View Post
    I'm fairly certain Troxism said Butcher was easily doable (without externals) at 667 ilevel.


    It's not too bad on Butcher (for me) but yeah Mar'gok can be annoying
    'Easily' is maybe understating it a little (really depends on a lot of things, someone isn't automatically shit because they had trouble with a similar ilvl; factors like having a weaker 2nd tank, or weaker healers can impact this a lot), and you do need 1 external for the rest of the 30% phase (after armour pot expires), but yes that is the ilvl I tanked it with for the first week.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by simetrik View Post
    Has anyone else been playing with Breath of Sindragosa recently? I took it for fun last night and the damage can be pretty crazy. Maintaining it for a minute+ is quite feasible at 670+ with ERW, which creates some nice single target burst (on the order of 40k dps for a minute long segment with full consumables/raid buffs). I still wouldn't use this for aoe fights (tectus, mar'gok, ko'ragh, etc.) but it seems to work well in single target situations - in fact, I was mostly thinking about using it on mythic butcher. Any thoughts?
    Might be good. I have such a ridiculous amount of haste now I might actually use it. Won't be doing farm till Sunday however (christmas break), so I'll have to wait to try it till then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eetabee View Post
    We had like five enrage wipes on Twins (missing a few key members due to holiday, but yeah, we're bad) and I have been looking for ways to improve my damage. The obvious is more blood boils but most of the top logs for that fight have BoS instead of defile. I'll probably try it out on Sunday if we have enough people and can try again.
    Honestly looking at logs is a mistake, most guilds have private logs ATM. I have better DPS on private logs then the #1 twins log, and I am sure there are multiple others in the same position (I don't think I do anything special that others don't on Twins). However BoS might be okay on that fight, it really depends on how much haste/MS you have.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post
    Anyone else's "tanking experience" feeling really shit mostly due to the fact you almost cant properly move/position any mobs? The responsivenss is totally out of hand (Looking at you, Butcher and Margok with your silly knockbacks).
    Yeah I agree. Mar'gok is esp bad due to the many knockbacks that happen constantly all fight that make him run behind you half the time as you try to recentre him.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2014-12-25 at 12:05 AM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

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