Page 24 of 66 FirstFirst ...
14
22
23
24
25
26
34
... LastLast
  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by smellymoose View Post
    I'm a newly dinged 100 blood dk and am still getting the hang of things,
    You recommend potting a Greater Draenic Strength Flask as choice,
    however would the extra stamina not be useful from the Greaten Draenic Stamina Flask?
    Is this purely gear based, as in, if you gear is low and your pool of hp isn't great enough for soaking heavy hits, would it be worth using stamina at this point?
    Or would the strength always come up trumps as it values other elements?
    Ironically the huge post above kind of talks about it, but for the short answer use STR. If your gear is even remotely appropriate for the content, you will have enough Stamina.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  2. #462
    So the short of it is, your cooldowns and some alright play are enough to get you through the hard parts of the fights, and for the rest of the fight it doesn't really matter. Thus you might as well focus on boosting your DPS to get things down faster, and it's not like any stats only benefit DPS.

  3. #463
    Well and you know all the points about why certain trinkets are good (and I even talk a little about how to actually min-max 'random' proc trinkets), why stamina sucks and why TMI/Sims is/are nearly irrelevant. But sort of yeah.

    Honestly the reason I bothered to write so much is I'm just fucking sick of people telling me I shouldn't care about DPS as a tank. My response that that is always 'well what the fuck else should I care about then?'. And they of course say 'staying alive', as if that somehow precludes doing more then 10 DPS at the same time. Then I have to either debate with them about these exact topics/points for about 30 mins or (more commonly because frankly it's not worth it to argue with people 99% of the time) just throw my hands in the air and walk away from the conversation and accept they have no clue what they are talking about. At least now I have something to point people to and say 'read this and maybe you will get it'. Problem is it's too long, but hey, I am always too wordy.

    And you know the real sad part of all this? The above way of thinking is how Blizzard thinks about tanks (that survival is apparently complex and deep enough gameplay to carry the role completely). And then that is when I realize, this game really isn't designed for me. Hell on Beta testing the bosses generally hit harder, and holy shit people complained on the feedback threads about it. It was funny, because I was having no issues (and that was after they nerfed Blood mastery, before which Blood was pretty overtuned), and I honestly thought Blizzard wouldn't listen to the whiners, since I figured I probably wasn't the only person not having any issues. Fast forward to live, and Twin Ogron went from a hard hitting fight to literally doing 0 damage, same with Tectus, same with Ko'ragh, and same with Imperator (at least the boss himself was nerfed a ton in damage). And I'm sure there will be others in BRF (Beastlord, Iron Maidens, Kromog and Flamebender come to mind as people complained a lot about them). So at the same time as saying tank gameplay is survival, they nerf survival down to be basically trivial, then nerf tank DPS as well, at which point I really have to ask how can a tank even play better then another tank anymore in any significant way.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  4. #464
    Do you even get that sentiment ("tanks shouldn't care about DPS") from anyone other than newer/more inexperienced players?

    And yes, very nice post! I wish I could up-rate it somehow ~

  5. #465
    I mean a lot of older tanks who have been tanking pretty much since Vanila/BC still sorta act like that. I mean even top guild tanks(not everyone but quite a few) don't push their damage as much as they really should they do it alright, but they could push it so much more with little consequence.

    Tbh if you aren't willing or capable of pushing it while living the same amount as just trying to live.... you are a shit tank. Its that simple.

    I still don't see why they don't just make tanks equal to DPS if they can max their potential just like a dps, but also have to worry about their life. Not sure why they listen to DPS qq about tanks doing more or the same damage as them. This isn't the old days.... tanks are dps who just get hit. Meatshields don't exist and haven't for many years at this point.

  6. #466
    Quote Originally Posted by Saiyendra View Post
    Do you even get that sentiment ("tanks shouldn't care about DPS") from anyone other than newer/more inexperienced players?
    I get variations of it from DPS and Tank players in guilds of similar level to mine. I've had tanks in guilds around the same rank tell me that 'I don't care about DPS because thats not my job, DPS should do more damage if we aren't making enrage'. I literally can't even understand an attitude like that. It's basically saying 'I want to get carried'. I've had DPS players from guilds tell me I should focus only on staying alive, because 'you don't ever want to die, it hurts progression if you die because you are trying to do damage'. So yes I get these sentiments from all kinds of people, it isn't limited to beginners. It's also why I basically don't give a shit what guild someone is in. I've seen too many bad players get carried (and tanks are by far the most common role this happens in as tank turnover is very very low) in very good guilds to assume anything because someone has a guild tag.

    Honestly sick of people listening to people just because they have a guild tag. Especially when said 'top players' are talking about classes they only play as alts, and don't exactly play well. There is a reason I don't write a Protection Paladin/Brewmaster guide; I play them decently, but to write a guide you need to actually be an expert in every respect, not just generally competent. Yet I see too many people offer terrible advice when they have no clue what they are talking about (for all specs). It's literally the reason I wrote this guide months ago: I was sick of seeing terrible advice being thrown about in regards to Blood, and then taken as gospel because 'X player is in a top guild so clearly they know what they are talking about'. I wanted to actually write a guide that explains things as much as possible, where people can say it is correct because they know WHY it is correct to do X.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2015-01-20 at 03:06 PM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  7. #467
    Quote Originally Posted by Troxism View Post
    Note: It is possible to sim a specific fight in simcraft if you design the boss like that with the boss events.
    I don't think proactive CD usage is possible, which makes the whole sim useless for tanks. Like you said, everything between those special damage phases is irrelevant.
    (Likewise the DPS sim isn't very good either. The difficult stuff is about correct CD uses and phases where you have to AoE, cleave or burst stuff down quickly. It's just that single target damage is easy to simulate.)

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
    I don't think proactive CD usage is possible, which makes the whole sim useless for tanks. Like you said, everything between those special damage phases is irrelevant.
    (Likewise the DPS sim isn't very good either. The difficult stuff is about correct CD uses and phases where you have to AoE, cleave or burst stuff down quickly. It's just that single target damage is easy to simulate.)
    Well, the fundamental issue as I kind of touched on is that basically 'gearing for survival' gives you like 10%-20% more survival, while using CDs right gives you more like 50-100% more survival when you actually need it. So even if you could perfectly sim a boss with a perfect APL, in reality all you would be getting is stat weights for better survival in that case.... except it would still be pointless to gear that way if you actually did the fight right as you just don't need that extra 10-20% 99% of the time.

    Of course I say that, but I know full well the majority of tanks have issues staying alive on these fights. So I still write the guide with that in mind to try and actually be helpful to as many as possible. It is difficult to balance all ends of the spectrum, especially considering there are exceptions to every rule and the guide is already so obtuse and wordy that I have a hard time justifying any additions. I have been thinking of rewriting the guide more from the advanced point of view (ie focus on fight specific breakdowns, ignore gearing ect), but I feel like that might make it worse for the majority of readers.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  9. #469
    Mechagnome
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    A faraway meadow
    Posts
    734
    If it's just an aesthetic issue of having the guide be too long on its own, could you write the advanced, boss-specific guide in a separate place, and just link it under a section in this guide?

  10. #470
    High Overlord Drugshock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Brazil ~
    Posts
    185
    Quote Originally Posted by Troxism View Post
    I get variations of it from DPS and Tank players in guilds of similar level to mine. I've had tanks in guilds around the same rank tell me that 'I don't care about DPS because thats not my job, DPS should do more damage if we aren't making enrage'. I literally can't even understand an attitude like that. It's basically saying 'I want to get carried'. I've had DPS players from guilds tell me I should focus only on staying alive, because 'you don't ever want to die, it hurts progression if you die because you are trying to do damage'. So yes I get these sentiments from all kinds of people, it isn't limited to beginners. It's also why I basically don't give a shit what guild someone is in. I've seen too many bad players get carried (and tanks are by far the most common role this happens in as tank turnover is very very low) in very good guilds to assume anything because someone has a guild tag.

    Honestly sick of people listening to people just because they have a guild tag. Especially when said 'top players' are talking about classes they only play as alts, and don't exactly play well. There is a reason I don't write a Protection Paladin/Brewmaster guide; I play them decently, but to write a guide you need to actually be an expert in every respect, not just generally competent. Yet I see too many people offer terrible advice when they have no clue what they are talking about (for all specs). It's literally the reason I wrote this guide months ago: I was sick of seeing terrible advice being thrown about in regards to Blood, and then taken as gospel because 'X player is in a top guild so clearly they know what they are talking about'. I wanted to actually write a guide that explains things as much as possible, where people can say it is correct because they know WHY it is correct to do X.
    You're my new King sir. Respect.
    Violence awaits. You can burn with me in hell. Viva la hate!

  11. #471
    Hello.
    Just a quick question regarding blood DK tank on Mar'Gok mythic. In our raid we got 3 tanks, one DK is assigned to tanking adds (during P1; intermissions and P3/P4). Our tank is flasking strenght and got DPS trinkets (bottle of infesting spores heroic with prismatic socket and Scabbard of Kyanos). He was saying that this was the best way to deal with adds even on the defensive aspect, because strenght offers much more sustain than EHP (much bigger heal from Death Strike, Parry).
    When he died a couple of time during P3, he said a stamina flask wouldn't have saved him.

    How can I measure the difference between those : flasks and trinkets, mentionning he has Evergaze Arcane Eidolon 670 in bags.
    Thanks!

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaluna View Post
    Hello.
    Just a quick question regarding blood DK tank on Mar'Gok mythic. In our raid we got 3 tanks, one DK is assigned to tanking adds (during P1; intermissions and P3/P4). Our tank is flasking strenght and got DPS trinkets (bottle of infesting spores heroic with prismatic socket and Scabbard of Kyanos). He was saying that this was the best way to deal with adds even on the defensive aspect, because strenght offers much more sustain than EHP (much bigger heal from Death Strike, Parry).
    When he died a couple of time during P3, he said a stamina flask wouldn't have saved him.

    How can I measure the difference between those : flasks and trinkets, mentionning he has Evergaze Arcane Eidolon 670 in bags.
    Thanks!
    Man it's amazing people start posting about the exact same thing after I pretty much go over this exact thing in a huge post. However, since obviously most people won't bother reading that wall of text, in summary, yes you don't get stamina ever unless you really really really have issues with staying alive (ie you don't know how to use cds/AM). I don't know how he has issues staying alive against only the adds (I assume you guys just haven't done it enough for him to practice yet?), but the general way to do it is to double AoE stun out of a grip when they spawn then kite them most of the time (during the first nova), then use AMS for the 2nd nova + their melees during that time, then use some other CDs or DSes (since you can ACTUALLY save them if you aren't also tanking the boss at the same time) to tank them the rest of the way as they should be dying at that point (shortly after Nova 3).
    Last edited by Troxism; 2015-01-21 at 12:17 AM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  13. #473
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaluna View Post
    Hello.
    Just a quick question regarding blood DK tank on Mar'Gok mythic. In our raid we got 3 tanks, one DK is assigned to tanking adds (during P1; intermissions and P3/P4). Our tank is flasking strenght and got DPS trinkets (bottle of infesting spores heroic with prismatic socket and Scabbard of Kyanos). He was saying that this was the best way to deal with adds even on the defensive aspect, because strenght offers much more sustain than EHP (much bigger heal from Death Strike, Parry).
    When he died a couple of time during P3, he said a stamina flask wouldn't have saved him.

    How can I measure the difference between those : flasks and trinkets, mentionning he has Evergaze Arcane Eidolon 670 in bags.
    Thanks!
    Better would be posting logs so we could see if he use some def cds.

  14. #474
    Hello.
    Thank you for your answer Troxism. I have to admit I've read your whole guide in the first page to find the answer, but didn't find it. I'm not a DK myself so I did not go through the whole 25 pages. Please accept my apology for the redundant question.

    Here are the logs about yesterday, the Dk doing adds is Greenleaf. We did not do that much P3. But the last try we've seen Cho'Gall.

    Just a precision, he was tanking the smalls adds (arcane remnant) 10-15m behind the boss, saying tanking it on the boss would be too dangerous with nova and nova replications.
    Thank you again for your help, I'm sure it will greatly improve our execution.

  15. #475
    When he died he didn't call for any external cd from healers or warrior. Warrior never use Vigilence. Both Palas have Hand of Sacri but didn't use on him and Priest also didn't use Pain Suppresion. When he was near death at 10:11 Eckmule cast HoS on Soulheart. In my opinion he should call for some external cds. Good tank don't only use own def cds but know when to call for cooldowns from other players.

    It's minor but he could also put gem into belt socket. Raid was yesterday and he obtain belt 3 day's ago. Putting 50+ MS gems isn't expensive if you want raid mythic in my opinion.

    Sorry for my bad english.

  16. #476
    When you guys (Trox,Jello, anyone) were progressing, did you guys use multistrike enchant/gems or mastery ones?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatsbybutters View Post
    This is actually favorite herb to farm. I'll hop in vent while the guild is running mythics and w/e and talk about me farming it.
    "How many fargenshlackle does it take to rank 3?"
    "I keep falling off these ledges farming this fragglerockenfargle"
    "I can't get this fargenfoliac to gather... is this fargenfurter node bugged" And so on until they mute me.

  17. #477
    Field Marshal Colors's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Chicago
    Posts
    87
    Most top DKs went MS for progression. Troxs post on the previous page goes in to depth as to why.


  18. #478
    Summary: Intelligent personal/external cooldown usage and DS timing is worth more than any type of defensive gearing. I was personally using Crit/MS crafted gear + PvP gear for most of our progression. (Geared our DPS first) Ironically, now that I've upgraded everything and we're doing sales, I can't beat my best parse on Butcher.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by JKinTMC View Post
    When you guys (Trox,Jello, anyone) were progressing, did you guys use multistrike enchant/gems or mastery ones?
    Yes I went pure MS. I had quite a bit of Mas/MS items due to 3 Tier 3 crafted items with Mas/MS on them and the BoE shoulders/Helm, but I mainly grabbed w/e gave me more overall dps than what would give me more survivability due to the instance really doing no dmg to us.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaluna View Post
    Hello.
    Thank you for your answer Troxism. I have to admit I've read your whole guide in the first page to find the answer, but didn't find it. I'm not a DK myself so I did not go through the whole 25 pages. Please accept my apology for the redundant question.

    Here are the logs about yesterday, the Dk doing adds is Greenleaf. We did not do that much P3. But the last try we've seen Cho'Gall.

    Just a precision, he was tanking the smalls adds (arcane remnant) 10-15m behind the boss, saying tanking it on the boss would be too dangerous with nova and nova replications.
    Thank you again for your help, I'm sure it will greatly improve our execution.
    Saying it's too dangerous to tank then refusing to use externals to make it possible is pretty ridiculous. Externals are literally the most important thing about tanking.

    Also I was mostly joking about 'was in the last post', I recognize people won't read THE ENTIRE THREAD.

    And yes I ran MS for progression because honestly it just didn't matter what I ran.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2015-01-22 at 12:16 AM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •