[Balance] Druid Guide- Warlords of Draenor Edition

[Romaromama]

Not to be rude, but why create another guide if we already have Cyous' guide? Especially considering how up to date that one is with most of the information missing here is already in his guide/covered.

Wouldn't it be better just to repost his and then mark where you added stuff or thought it could use inputs?

[Cyous]

Not to be rude, but why create another guide if we already have Cyous' guide? Especially considering how up to date that one is with most of the information missing here is already in his guide/covered.

Wouldn't it be better just to repost his and then mark where you added stuff or thought it could use inputs?

Slippy wanted me to copy/paste my guide for the MMO-C guide; but I declined because I didn't want to be on the 3 major guides (wow forums, mmo-c, icy-veins). I don't like the idea of "my word is final" it presents -- I'd rather have others give their informed opinions.

[Erdluf]

Thank you sir.

I was wondering if anyone wouldn't mind checking my numbers because I'm not confident enough in my ability to "math" to give a definitive answer.

Caution:
Euphoria is not selected
I used my current haste ratings (Just took my current haste percentage *100) = 22.45% & 5% more from raid buffs. (I am not examining this under heroism/bloodlust conditions)
Analyzing nonempowered casts only
Mastery values were set to 500 = Max Eclipse Bonus of 53.52% (After plugging in my own value for mastery, my Lunar Position and Solar Position changed by roughly 5 so my respective times are LT=1.77s and ST=3.29s)

Now my goal was to find the time at which the SP/S of nonempowered wrath = nonempowered Starfire for both Lunar--->Solar
and Solar---->Lunar

Lunar--->Solar
I got a Lunar Position = +17, SP/S of Wrath= 97.069, SP/S of Starfire= 97.135
Now to convert this to a time representation, I took 100/8.03= 12.4533 and then divided the Lunar Position by this value. 17/12.4533 = 1.37 seconds.
TLDR: Starfire is worth casting in the Lunar--->Solar transition as long as T>=1.36

Solar--->Lunar
I got a Lunar Position = -46 (46 Solar Position), SP/S of Wrath = 99.732, SP/S of Starfire = 99.742.
Used the same method to convert to a time representation. The end result was |-46|/12.4533 = 3.69 seconds.
TLDR: During the Solar--->Lunar transition, it is worth casting Starfire as long as T<=3.69

To find these Lunar Positions, I was just plugging in whole number energy values until I saw that SP/S of Wrath=Starfire

Also results vary based on the player's haste and mastery levels so there isn't a set answer it seems.

Would greatly appreciate any feedback as long as it doesn't result in myself looking like a dumbass.

That spreadsheet uses level 100 conversions, and 500 mastery sounds more like a level 90 number (my 90 PvP set has 340 mastery from gear). I haven't started looking at 100 gear yet, but considering 200 mastery from perm enchants, a starting 100 total of over 1000 Mastery seems likely.

[mythiix]

Yes the spreadsheet uses level 100 conversions but I converted my current percent ratings to level 100 as well so it shouldn't have caused too much of an issue.
ie. Say I have 22% haste right now, on the spread sheet I entered a value of 2200 haste even I currently only have like 440.

[Erdluf]

Wrathcalcs says 63.79% max mastery bonus at 500 mastery (at 100). Look on the Basic Calcs page. I'm not sure where the discrepancy comes from.

[Pippilongear]

Kritkin,

Props to you for taking on such a time-consuming guide such as this and since guide-writing/maintaining is such a thankless task, let me be the first to say "Thank You". This is a good start at a guide but I feel that you need to summarize and prioritize it to a large degree. I believe that new moonkin will be lost in the walls of text and even old moonkin will need to sift through lots of extraneous info to find what they are looking for. Here are my suggestions (and they are only that, suggestions, so take or leave them as you see fit!):

Section 3.0:
Personally I dislike these "what has changed" sections in guides because by writing it, you automatically assume (which is a bad thing!) that the person reading the guide played a moonkin at the end of the previous expansion (ie: MoP). Many players reading the guide may have taken a longer hiatus from moonkin than just since last expansion or may be entirely new in which case this whole section is irrelevant.

a) (Suggestion only!) Remove entire "what's changed" section
b) Remove all non-pertinent moonkin items (e.g.: "Survival Instincts is now available only to Feral and Guardian Druids.") - this is just copy and paste filler that makes the guide longer and more tedious to scroll through
c) The "Balance Rebalanced" section is a copy and paste of the blizzard post - if you are going to do that you should at least link the original post and cite the source because you keep saying "we" when it's unclear who you are talking about
d) The "Balance Rebalanced' section deserves its own section - something like "How To: Moonkin DPS". This section is so important for new moonkin because it summarizes what is most important about playing a moonkin

Section 4: Seems to be missing

Section 5: Choosing a Race
a) prune this and only mention relevant DPS-affecting racials
b) add a link to a race summary page on battle.net or wowhead for complete racials

Section 5.0: (2 different section 5s?) Stats 'n' Caps

a) Since haste "caps" are irrelevant and hit has been removed, you should just change the title of this section
b) For wording on the new dot partial ticks as relates to haste, I suggest you use this description: "When a DoT expires, it will do a partial tick of damage based on how much time had elapsed since the previous full tick." Source: Hamlet - you can link to his full post if anyone wants more detail: http://iam.yellingontheinternet.com/...ds-of-draenor/

Section 6.0: Stat Weights

a) If you are going to reference stat weights (which you should of course) you need to link to the relevant Wrathcalcs post on EJ. Frankly I might also include a disclaimer as to what the specific wrathcalcs build you used and the assumptions (ie: BiS gear + Tauren racial + xyz talents) since all of those impact stat weightings to some degree.

Section 7.0: Gemming
a) Frankly I ignored all of the numbers in this section because they are not particularly relevant - A brief description of each gem suffices here.
b) I think you need to mention that there are no longer any primary stats on gems in WoD - I know if I was a returning Cataclysm player I would probably spend a ridiculous amount of time trying to find a red +Int gem on the AH

Section 8.1: Weapon Enchants
a) I have no idea how you went from calculating "max potential" of the enchants to the next section where you are "recalculating for baseline"
b) What you should be doing is just averaging the proc over the cooldown and then (if you want) comparing them using stat weights

Section 8.2: Armor Enchants
a) It is a waste of time and space to multiply the stat weights against every enchant for all 3 pieces of armor. Just describe what the 3 armor pieces are and say:
Rings = +30 Of One of the Secondary Stats
Neck = +40
Cloak = +100

b) I'm not sure what this means

+40 Mastery +60 Mastery +100 Mastery +200 Mastery +1.83%

What is enchant is the +200 Mastery?
What is the 1.83%?

Section 9.0 Professions
a) You said it best:

All combat benefits from professions were removed with patch 6.0.2. This effectively means you can choose whatever you want!

Delete the rest of the section as it is not relevant

Section 10.0 Consumables
a) Link to relevant Wowhead items as it would be great for new players to read about how to craft / acquire these

Section 11.0 Talents

Generally I think this is OK as a description of what the talents are.

a) I think it needs more work (as someone else commented before) about *why* you would choose one talent over another
b) Since you are using Wrathcalcs for stat weights I think you should reference what the dps difference is on a patchwerk fight for one talent vs. another and if you also want to reference simcraft you can compare some the talents for single-target vs. multi-target. (this is a slippery slope imo so keep it simple and link to simcraft / wrathcalcs where ever possible since you know that those will change on a frequent basis)
c) I would avoid the terms "basic" and "advanced" and just generally describe some talents as more complicated to use effectively vs. more simple. A hammer is the simplest tool in the world and sometimes it gets the job done perfectly - it all depends on what is required for that scenario.

Section 12.0: Glyphs

• Glyph of Celestial Alignment: Celestial Alignment now lasts 60 seconds, or until 8 spells have been cast with it active, whichever occurs first. Ensures you get the full benefit from Celestial Alignment. I’d say this is almost required

You should probably remove the underlined comment. Frankly the glyph *may* be good at early expac gear levels and with fights with lots of movement but that remains to be seen. You could describe a scenario where the glyph might be useful such as "This glyph is very helpful for making sure you get the CA damage bonus on all of your hard casts if you have to move during your CA but may be a dps loss on fights without that randomness."

Section 13.0 Eclipse Changes

a) See my comments on the "What has changed" section - generally this is a not-super-helpful data dump copy and paste.
b) My suggestion would be to add a "Tips and Tricks" section on how to maximize your eclipse rotation management
eg:

-"Did you know that when crossing from one eclipse to another (ie: from lunar to solar) if you start your starsurge cast in lunar but end it in solar that it will give you Solar Empowerment instead of Lunar" (This is not as relevant at level 100 b/c of instant SS perks but you get the idea)
- "You should be casting Moonfire at every lunar peak and Sunfire at least twice during every cycle (max dps is when you enter solar and at solar peak)"

Section 14.0: Rotations

a) As others have stated, Incarnation needs to be cast pre-pull since it has a GCD. Personally I might pre-cast a Starsurge as well since it has travel time
b) You should give a summary of what the basic concept of the rotation is. Something like:

1. Keep 100% uptime on all dots by casting Moonfire at Lunar peak, Sunfire twice per cycle (once upon entering solar and again at solar peak) and Stellar Flare (if you take that talent) as often as necessary
2. Cast Starsurge as often as possible to empower your Starfire or Wrath casts
3. Time your Starsurge cast so it lands *before* the lunar or solar peak so that your hardcasts hit the target right before, during and right after the peaks (the higher the eclipse energy, the more powerful the relevant hardcast will hit)
4. Use Starfall instead of Starsurge (since they share charges) when there are more than X targets
5. Make sure to "bank" Starsurge/Starfall charges for use with CDs/trinkets/burn phases


Thanks again and good luck!

[mythiix]

So I don't know where the discrepancies come from but I do see what you are talking about.
However, it does seem that this spreadsheet supports the idea that there exists a Solar Position where the SP/S of Starfire=Wrath. This is a very small Solar Position but it is showing that the actual transition between wrath and starfire does not occur at 0 energy (for the sake of the argument lets call this transition point "X"). Am I right to assume that it is also beneficial to cast Starfire at a certain solar position (heading towards lunar) such that the Starfire cast finishes at this value of X? Or is this only the case with
Lunar-->Solar?
Still very new to all of this so yeahhh

[lappee]

Wrathcalcs says 63.79% max mastery bonus at 500 mastery (at 100). Look on the Basic Calcs page. I'm not sure where the discrepancy comes from.

Thats totally my bad, for some reason I had forgotten to add both, mastery raid buff and mastery attunement. It should be right now.

- - - Updated - - -

So I don't know where the discrepancies come from but I do see what you are talking about.
However, it does seem that this spreadsheet supports the idea that there exists a Solar Position where the SP/S of Starfire=Wrath. This is a very small Solar Position but it is showing that the actual transition between wrath and starfire does not occur at 0 energy (for the sake of the argument lets call this transition point "X"). Am I right to assume that it is also beneficial to cast Starfire at a certain solar position (heading towards lunar) such that the Starfire cast finishes at this value of X? Or is this only the case with
Lunar-->Solar?
Still very new to all of this so yeahhh

The spreadsheet you're looking at shows the point of time when the cast should start to have that specific sp/second (which is why it requires haste and all)
I have a spreadsheet for the time of when the cast should end but its kinda out of date as the other one is more useful.

(known) discrepancies have been fixed.

The actual transition between wrath > Starfire and vise versa isnt at point 0. Just because the two spells arent identical on sp/second basis, then theres the difference in cast times which also affect the outcome due to eclipse bar moving on its won. Euphoria takes the point further away from 0 which is why people are having hard time using that talent.

[mythiix]

The spreadsheet you're looking at shows the point of time when the cast should start to have that specific sp/second (which is why it requires haste and all)
I have a spreadsheet for the time of when the cast should end but its kinda out of date as the other one is more useful.

(known) discrepancies have been fixed.

The actual transition between wrath > Starfire and vise versa isnt at point 0. Just because the two spells arent identical on sp/second basis, then theres the difference in cast times which also affect the outcome due to eclipse bar moving on its won. Euphoria takes the point further away from 0 which is why people are having hard time using that talent.

Okay if I'm interpreting this last part correctly, the 2nd spreadsheet is a simple conversion of the first to a time representation?

Lastly, will the Transition Point "X" only affect our Lunar->Solar transition or will it have the same effect on Solar--->Lunar? That is, if the transition point occurs at say a Solar Position of 10 and it takes roughly 30 energy to complete 1 cast of Starfire, will we be wanting to cast Starfire at a Solar Position of 40 when heading back towards lunar or is it only supposed to be used lunar-->solar?
I struggle with this part because then I keep remembering that it would still allow us to get off nearly 2 eclipsed wraths both benefiting from different amounts of our mastery given that the cast time of wrath equals say 20 energy.

Sorry for all the questions

[lappee]

Okay if I'm interpreting this last part correctly, the 2nd spreadsheet is a simple conversion of the first to a time representation?

Lastly, will the Transition Point "X" only affect our Lunar->Solar transition or will it have the same effect on Solar--->Lunar? That is, if the transition point occurs at say a Solar Position of 10 and it takes roughly 30 energy to complete 1 cast of Starfire, will we be wanting to cast Starfire at a Solar Position of 40 when heading back towards lunar or is it only supposed to be used lunar-->solar?
I struggle with this part because then I keep remembering that it would still allow us to get off nearly 2 eclipsed wraths both benefiting from different amounts of our mastery given that the cast time of wrath equals say 20 energy.

Sorry for all the questions

SP/Second comparison v2 is the more advanced one that I try to keep up to date and add things when they come to mind.

Transition points are different in Solar->Lunar and Lunar to Solar.
Casts take certain amount of time, the energy they take depends on the position of the sine wave.

The Spreadsheet counts the SP/Second values of the spells cast (starts) at certain point on time (or energy). If it says that its better to cast Wrath over Starfire then thats how it is. If I understood correctly what you're trying to say, I'll try to visualize it and what the spreadsheet does.

In your case

Lunar peak |----------|0|----------| Solar peak. Now you're wondering if casting Wrath twice is more beneficial than casting one Starfire
Lunar peak |----------|0|-W---W------| Solar peak vs Lunar peak |----------|0|----S------| Solar peak

Now the spreadsheet only checks the next spell, aka in that case it would suggest you to do
Lunar peak |----------|0|-S---W------| Solar peak. Since the second Wrath would en up hitting on Lunar side, dealing less dps than a Starfire would when cast at the same time

Basically with the spreadsheet you can just check the transition point. when going from Lunar to Solar, anything before that transition point should be Starfires, and anything after should be Wraths (and vice versa for Solar to Lunar)

[Erdluf]

I agree with the general theme of Pippi's comments. Spend less time on comparisons with MoP in the guide. When you give numbers, sources would be nice, so people can more easily tell if the guide is up to date.

Lappe, your spreadsheet is a nice tool. However, the empowered SP/sec numbers with Empowerment+Euphoria (E28,E30) does not appear to be using the reduced cast times given by Empowerment+Euphoria. Sorry if I missed that somewhere.

As far as the transition point, that is a decent recommendation, but if you were to compare SP/sec of one SF, compared to SP/sec of two-consecutive Wraths, you would get a different transition point. I'm not saying either comparison is better (is it better to compare 3s with 2s or to compare 3s with 4s? Both comparisons are imperfect, because they ignore the rest of the fight, and leave you in different positions for the rest of the fight).

[lappee]

Lappe, your spreadsheet is a nice tool. However, the empowered SP/sec numbers with Empowerment+Euphoria (E28,E30) does not appear to be using the reduced cast times given by Empowerment+Euphoria. Sorry if I missed that somewhere.

That could be, I made the Euphoria part of the spreadsheet a long time ago. Gonna take a look at that soonish.

edit: Should be fixed now, but quick fixes like that tend to break something else let me know if you find something

[mythiix]

I think we're very close to having the same idea and surprisingly the answer made sense to me while I was showering lol.

Lunar peak |----------|0|-S---W------| Solar peak

So this is showing during the lunar--->solar transition which is very easy to comprehend.

What I was getting at is during the Solar--->Lunar
Solar Peak |-----W---S--|0|----------| Lunar Peak
So the time at which we would want to swap to Starfire would be equal to the Transition Point + the amount of energy it takes to cast a wrath.
My error is that I was adding starfire to this transition point instead of wrath but if I'm understanding this correctly, starfire should be casted over wrath during this transition when the time it takes to cast a wrath will land on the transition point.

[Pippilongear]

So the time at which we would want to swap to Starfire would be equal to the Transition Point + the amount of energy it takes to cast a wrath.
My error is that I was adding starfire to this transition point instead of wrath but if I'm understanding this correctly, starfire should be casted over wrath during this transition when the time it takes to cast a wrath will land on the transition point.

I've been following the whole "transition point" back-and-forth closely because it is another way to micro-manage our rotation and maybe squeeze some extra dps out but has anyone done even basic napkin math to see if the dps difference is at all significant?

[lappee]

..

Transition point is just a point in time/bar where Starfire becomes better/worse than Wrath.

For example, transition point when going from Lunar to Solar is around 25 Lunar energy (in this example)

If you're over 25 Lunar energy, you should cast Starfire.
If you're below 25 Lunar energy, you should cast Wrath.

Thats as simple as it gets. Basically you should just ignore the 0 point in the bar as it stands only for moonfire/sunfire transition.

[Erdluf]

I've been following the whole "transition point" back-and-forth closely because it is another way to micro-manage our rotation and maybe squeeze some extra dps out but has anyone done even basic napkin math to see if the dps difference is at all significant?

Suppose your rule is
1) Cast SF if it will and in Lunar.
2) else cast Wrath if it will land in Solar
3) else cast SF.
and suppose that the optimal rule would sometimes cast SF a little bit more aggressively (as suggested in the conversation above). At equal energy, 2/3 of an SF is worth 7.5% of SP more than Wrath. A DoT tick is nominal 2s, and does 29.25% of SP. The 1,2,3 rule would always have Wrath casts at higher energy than the replacement SF, so if it isn't optimal, then when it is wrong it costs you something less than one fourth of one DoT tick. I don't believe it can be wrong more than twice per cycle, so very pessimistically, it costs you less than 1/2 DoT tick per cycle.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over that at my casual level of play.

[mythiix]

Transition point is just a point in time/bar where Starfire becomes better/worse than Wrath.

For example, transition point when going from Lunar to Solar is around 25 Lunar energy (in this example)

If you're over 25 Lunar energy, you should cast Starfire.
If you're below 25 Lunar energy, you should cast Wrath.

Thats as simple as it gets. Basically you should just ignore the 0 point in the bar as it stands only for moonfire/sunfire transition.

Yeah I understand the whole transition point. That's the easy part. I'm having trouble calculating the transition point during the Solar--->Lunar transition. It probably would have been easier if I had just said this to begin with instead of trying to throw out my random theories.

[Pippilongear]

Suppose your rule is
1) Cast SF if it will and in Lunar.
2) else cast Wrath if it will land in Solar
3) else cast SF.
and suppose that the optimal rule would sometimes cast SF a little bit more aggressively (as suggested in the conversation above). At equal energy, 2/3 of an SF is worth 7.5% of SP more than Wrath. A DoT tick is nominal 2s, and does 29.25% of SP. The 1,2,3 rule would always have Wrath casts at higher energy than the replacement SF, so if it isn't optimal, then when it is wrong it costs you something less than one fourth of one DoT tick. I don't believe it can be wrong more than twice per cycle, so very pessimistically, it costs you less than 1/2 DoT tick per cycle.

I'm not going to lose any sleep over that at my casual level of play.

Using Lappee's spreadsheet, I estimated a swap-point of -40 energy when going from solar to lunar (-2.5 seconds before transition) and a swap point of +22 energy when going from lunar to solar (+1.4 seconds). Effectively swapping 1.7 Wraths for 1 Starfire.

The average SP/s difference (starting SP/S vs. ending SP/S) is approximately 7% when going Lunar to Solar and 15% when going Solar to Lunar. Using those numbers, *perhaps* it is more like 3/4 of a Dot Tick per cycle?

[mythiix]

Using Lappee's spreadsheet, I estimated a swap-point of -40 energy when going from solar to lunar (-2.5 seconds before transition) and a swap point of +22 energy when going from lunar to solar (+1.4 seconds). Effectively swapping 1.7 Wraths for 1 Starfire.

I got the same results this morning, however it feels weird that the transition point for solar-->lunar is so high. Maybe it's just me but this is why I keep feeling like my math is wrong because it seems like a rather absurd number.

Where did you get the 1.4 from though? I was coming out with 1.77 because 22/(100/8.03) = 1.7666 and 3.21 = 40/(100/8.03)

[Erdluf]

Using Lappee's spreadsheet, I estimated a swap-point of -40 energy when going from solar to lunar (-2.5 seconds before transition) and a swap point of +22 energy when going from lunar to solar (+1.4 seconds). Effectively swapping 1.7 Wraths for 1 Starfire.

The average SP/s difference (starting SP/S vs. ending SP/S) is approximately 7% when going Lunar to Solar and 15% when going Solar to Lunar. Using those numbers, *perhaps* it is more like 3/4 of a Dot Tick per cycle?

His spreadsheet has 2.34s SF cast and 1.56s Wrath cast. So my "simple" rule would have Lunar to Solar transition (begin-cast) at 1.56s (vs. your 1.4s), and Solar to Lunar transition at 2.34s (vs. 2.5s). So in both cases we "disagree" by 0.16s. We also agree that if we knew the perfect transition time, than at exactly that transition time it doesn't matter which spell you cast (definition of transition is the point where one spell becomes equal to the other).

So if your "transition" point is wrong by 0.16s, then
a) If timing made you do the wrong thing twice per cycle, the DPS difference would be extremely small, because 0.1s away from the transition points, both spells have almost exactly the same dps anyway.
b) With most spells taking about 1.6s or longer, your "bad" transition point will only affect your casting decision about once every 10 transitions (over three minutes without Euphoria).
The penalty of that kind of a "computation-of-transition-point" error is on the order of a very few DoT ticks per fight, at most.