1. #1641
    thank you theck and all the other guys für your work!

  2. #1642
    Quote Originally Posted by Vergilius View Post
    Why is Sera_HA better on DTPS than Sera_SW? Do you really gain that much less damage taken during HA that it not only offsets the constant HP generated by SW on the 1 min 42 sec downtime, but beats it by 1.7k DTPS? That seems crazy.
    So, looking at both Talents, consider any given 2-minute window.

    SW generates 1 HoPo every time you use HW. With 0 haste, that would be 1 HoPo every 15 seconds, so 8 HoPo in 2 minutes. (Assuming you can use it off CD without delaying CS and J - i.e. this is an overestimate)
    HA generates 2 extra HoPo every time you use CS/J or a GC proc during the 18 seconds of HA (12 globals with 0 haste). Mapping this out means you should:

    CS - J - X - CS - X - J - CS - X - X - CS - J - X

    Which is 7 x 2 = 14 HoPo assuming no GC procs. (X is any filler, doesn't matter which for this example).

    So you have 14 HoPo compared to 8 HoPo which is an extra 2 SotR. Therefore with HA you get at least 2 extra SotR's per 2 minutes. (5% extra uptime).

    To combat this without doing several calculation, to get 14 HoPo from SW every 2 minutes (to make it equal to HA with 0 haste) you need a Cooldown of 120/14 = 8.6 seconds. This would amount to 75% Haste.

    I think I can stop at this point, because HA also scales with haste, so would improve AND 75% haste is practically unobtainable and that amount of haste would affect the rotation with SW anyway and would probably push HW back at certain times. Meaning that for DTPS, because HA generates more HoPo than SW, it should always be ahead depending on how much damage reduction you get from approx 5% extra uptime on SotR.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

  3. #1643
    Are the changes live on EU? LFR isn't really something of note but I feel like my dps has dropped slightly.

  4. #1644
    Bloodsail Admiral Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Normal is srs bsns.
    Lethora, 110 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU

  5. #1645
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ty=3&boss=1719

    is this intended? I think i broke the game

    but really , idgaf if kill time/normal this is straightforward retarded. Can some 1 nerf us
    Well i know what im testing out when i get home tonight what glyphs was you using?

    Final Wrath, Harsh Words, DP?

  6. #1646
    Stood in the Fire Sar-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ty=3&boss=1719

    is this intended? I think i broke the game

    but really , idgaf if kill time/normal this is straightforward retarded. Can some 1 nerf us
    I think you meant "Nurf Munx plx"

  7. #1647
    Bloodsail Admiral Lethora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    I'd like to see you do 60k dps on ogrons , I give you time untill blackrock foundry progress is over.
    I'm not really bothered with whoring the meters anymore. So you probably won't see me entering normal mode at all.
    Actually, I haven't even stepped into normal for the last 3 resets because I cba to spend more than 14-16 hours per week in game anymore (basically, raiding + farming for mounts and doing garrison)
    Lethora, 110 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU

  8. #1648
    I don't know whether I can be bothered to drag 9 of my guildies to Twin Ogrons, sounds like a lot of effort.
    It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. - Aristotle

  9. #1649
    Quote Originally Posted by vokey View Post
    Are the changes live on EU? LFR isn't really something of note but I feel like my dps has dropped slightly.
    Would like to know that too.

  10. #1650
    Quote Originally Posted by vokey View Post
    Are the changes live on EU? LFR isn't really something of note but I feel like my dps has dropped slightly.
    They are both active now. I have 30% higher haste rating than I have on gear, and about 2% total haste more than 1500 haste would give with 100 rating per percentage (16.7%).
    Intel i7 5820K (4.5 GHz) | MSI X99A MPower | 32GB Kingston HyperX Fury 2666MHz | Asus RoG STRIX GTX 1080ti OC | Samsung 951PRO nVME 512GB | Crucial M550 256GB | Crucial MX200 1TB | Western Digital Caviar Black 2000GB | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Noctua NH-D15 | Fractal Define R5 | Seasonic X850

    Former author of the TankSpot.com Protection Paladin guide

  11. #1651
    Regarding questions about glyphs, enchants, trinkets, etc. Note that I'm using a heroic highmaul gear set for these sims rather than T17H, so they'll be a little more relevant to current Mythic progression (i.e. if you aren't already farming it). Unless otherwise specified, talents should be DP+LH+Seraphim.

    Glyphs:
    Glyphs - Single-Target
    Glyphs - Three Targets

    Weapon Enchants:
    Weapon Enchants - Single-Target

    Trinkets:
    Trinkets - Single-Target

    Talents (this uses T17H again):
    Talents - All L100+L75 combos


    Highlights:
    Glyphs
    - Harsh Words still the single-target DPS king.
    - Focused Shield is the next best single-target glyph.
    - Final Wrath and Alabaster Shield are roughly tied for third against a single target, with FW probably slightly ahead.
    - On 2+ targets, Double Jeopardy is your new second-place glyph, provided you can constantly alternate Judgment between two different targets.
    - Alabaster Shield is the clear third-place winner for 3 targets. Based on how close the two were for a single target, I think it's safe to say that Alabaster > Final Wrath for 2 targets as well.
    - I have no idea why Battle Healer shows a 10-40 DPS gain. My guess is statistical error, even though SimC claims these should be good to about 11 DPS. Could also be some really unlikely interaction (ex: The sim is healing the tank to 90% every 10 seconds, and BH removes the SoI healing that occasionally prevents you from dropping below the 60% threshold for Mark of Blackrock, leading to slightly higher uptime on that buff).

    Summary: Harsh Words > Double Jeopardy (2T+) > Focused Shield (1T) > Alabaster (2T+) > Final Wrath = Alabaster (1T)

    Weapon Enchants:
    - Haste buff made Mark of Warsong the new DPS winner. Blackrock isn't that far behind though (~75 DPS).
    - Blackrock has a small edge for survival, but Warsong and the others aren't at all far behind.

    All of the usual caveats we discussed upthread about Blackrock and multi-tank situations still apply. In short, either enchant is justifiable one way or another, depending on what you like. Warsong probably the better choice for DPS (+100 or more once tank swaps are considered), Blackrock probably the better choice for survival (shouldn't proc while you're not tanking).

    Trinkets:
    - Not a lot has changed here. Bonus Armor and STR trinkets still win for DPS, stamina trinkets are still better for raw survivability. Since we care about DPS, Bonus Armor is probably the better overall choice (but obviously, use what drops).
    - Worth mentioning: the Knights' Badge here is a 3/3 upgraded one, and the rest of the trinkets are Mythic. So 3/3 KB is a great starter trinket, and probably won't be replaced until you get something like Blast Furnace Door from BRF.
    - Also worth noting that the on-use trinkets like Pol's Blinded Eye may be slightly preferred if you use HA instead of DP due to overlap. This sim is actually pretty fast, so I may re-run it later with Sera+HA (and maybe add Scabbard, which somehow isn't on the list of trinkets I used?).

    Talents:
    - Sera still king for DPS and Survival. Remember this is using T17H, so even once we get set bonuses, Sera is at an advantage provided you play it properly. If you don't play it properly, HS is the safer bet. We may want to discuss a rule of thumb like "if you can't maintain 40%+ Seraphim uptime, you're probably actually underperforming compared to taking HS."
    - ES is still in last place post-haste-buff. Worse for survival than HS, and not a very large DPS gain over HS either (obv a DPS loss compared to Sera). And again, this is played perfectly juggling all 3 buffs. The penalty for error with ES is probably just as large as Seraphim since all three of the buffs are pretty significant effects. If your uptime on any of the buffs is <75%, you're probably better off with HS.

  12. #1652
    Quote Originally Posted by Theck View Post
    Talents:
    - Sera still king for DPS and Survival. Remember this is using T17H, so even once we get set bonuses, Sera is at an advantage provided you play it properly. If you don't play it properly, HS is the safer bet. We may want to discuss a rule of thumb like "if you can't maintain 40%+ Seraphim uptime, you're probably actually underperforming compared to taking HS."
    I'm guessing this would also be situational - i.e., perhaps related to the opinion that HS may be better for learning or under-geared situations.

    Afterall, using Seraphim on cooldown and maintaining high uptime really means its not be used for damage mitigation as much as DPS. If it was truly damage mitigation we'd wait until tanking the boss, a 'breath' event, etc. - and uptimes would drop a bit, into the 'you're under-performing' range.

  13. #1653
    Quote Originally Posted by golfinguy View Post
    I'm guessing this would also be situational - i.e., perhaps related to the opinion that HS may be better for learning or under-geared situations.

    Afterall, using Seraphim on cooldown and maintaining high uptime really means its not be used for damage mitigation as much as DPS. If it was truly damage mitigation we'd wait until tanking the boss, a 'breath' event, etc. - and uptimes would drop a bit, into the 'you're under-performing' range.
    With a clean sera rotation you can have mitigation up 100% so it really boils down to how your using it, If you were delaying seraphim for when tanking the boss for one reason (Not sure why you would do this as every bit of dps could mean a kill or not) it would be more beneficial for you to take HS.

  14. #1654
    So question regarding LH, are you guys delaying it for certain conditions? i.e. Sera up and 2+ targets will sit in it the entire duration? think ogron specifically, but applicable to plenty of fights

  15. #1655
    hey how do you guys feel about knights badge for a player who doesnt plan to do mythic content? is a 3/3 knights badge still our #1 trinket or does pols/evergaze(heroic) surpass it? (ignoring scabbard)

    (x-post from other thread)

  16. #1656
    DP has the potential to be good and give us substantial SotR uptime, but there's also the issue of it not proccing enough to be worth it compared to HA or SW. It's a lower floor but a higher ceiling so you have to be willing to bet on getting good RNG on it. If you're not willing to do that then HA or SW are better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
    Noodles and chocolate milk is the breakfast of Champions.
    Super Brony Friendfinder

  17. #1657
    Quote Originally Posted by benj3 View Post
    With a clean sera rotation you can have mitigation up 100% so it really boils down to how your using it, If you were delaying seraphim for when tanking the boss for one reason (Not sure why you would do this as every bit of dps could mean a kill or not) it would be more beneficial for you to take HS.
    Never really going to be 100% is it? But perhaps I am valuing Seraphim over DP far too much. Trying to maximize its 'boss time' rather than just running the 'rotation' regardless of the situation.

  18. #1658
    Quote Originally Posted by golfinguy View Post
    I'm guessing this would also be situational - i.e., perhaps related to the opinion that HS may be better for learning or under-geared situations.

    Afterall, using Seraphim on cooldown and maintaining high uptime really means its not be used for damage mitigation as much as DPS. If it was truly damage mitigation we'd wait until tanking the boss, a 'breath' event, etc. - and uptimes would drop a bit, into the 'you're under-performing' range.
    I was thinking of a case where you were tanking 100% of the time, since there you'd probably be using Sera on cooldown. Delaying it while not tanking is a DPS loss, but could be a survivability gain depending on the circumstances. So the rule of thumb would definitely be situational in that regard.

  19. #1659
    After today's testing, I'm certain that we will be nerfed one way or another. Either that, or the outrage about prot paladins will be endless. =.=
    Though there is still the issue of "lesser skilled" players, who are unable to pull numbers even close to the top 10%.
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    It's kinda amazing how many hands these guys have, anyway. Our tank pally can put his hands on 3 different people and still hold his weapon and shield and make unsavory gestures towards enemies.

  20. #1660
    Found out why the dps dropped a bit, turns out I was spamming WoG without the HW glyph.

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