1. #4361
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Khiyone View Post
    I didn't follow the thread back in Highmaul but how much of a DPS gain did Harsh Words give?
    A significant one, but there was some absurd notion that it could simply be spammed whenever the fuck you wanted, rather than actually having to be used with some thought. Could you spam it when you weren't tanking, or during major CDs? Yes, and doing so was a valuable tool on progression. Could you do it when you were actually tanking something and not under the effect of a major DR? Not in a million fucking years.

    Never mind the fact that properly using Seraphim (which hilariously remains beyond even the average Mythic paladin, if logs are to be believed) was a much larger DPS gain than spamming Harsh Words.

  2. #4362
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    If you'd read Troxism's post (and much of my opinion on the matter is based on extensive conversation with Troxism, as well as playing BoS myself) you'd understand that we fully advocate for nerfing BoS in those fringe situations like Maidens where atm it is currently far too strong, AND advocate for tuning down the healing it does by a whole lot. BoS is very, very far from, overpowered on in single-target situations - the only way a Blood DK will keep up with a true DPS in a purely single-target situation is if said DPS is bad AND the Blood DK has completely absurd RNG. Characterizing it as overpowered in single-target situations is grossly misrepresenting the relative strength of Breath of Sindragosa to real DPS specs - fueled solely by the misconception that BoS DKs being ahead other tanks by 5-10k DPS implies issues with BoS rather than a generally egregious undertuning of every other tank spec, and comparing BoS DKs with shitty DPS specs like Retribution paladin rather than with actual useful DPS specs that are fully capable of parses in the 55-60k range.

    The fact of the matter is that there are dead talents in every tier, for every spec. Look at Runic Empowerment for Blood - who the fuck would ever play RE in content that matters? Likewise, it's fine if Breath of Sindragosa is the only viable choice for Blood DKs that actually care about playing optimally - and for the record the only reason it makes up such a large portion of damage on logs is because it's a more efficient RP-AP conversion than Death Coil so Death Coil, which is easily 15-20% of single-target damage without BoS, is simply never cast. Could the other talents use buffs/reworks (NP needs a full rework for Blood, to be very blunt) to make them more viable? Absolutely. Is them being in a shitty state a cogent argument for BoS also needing to be in a shitty state..?

    I'd say that last line of thinking is the sort of shitty-ass thinking practiced by the developers that got tanks into a whole lot of mess in the first place.
    Again, I agree about the engaging gameplay, but you need to get this 75% bullshit (that they backtracked on multiple times already) out of your head. 75% of a DPS doesn't seem to be the goal currently, but we should probably get clarification on that.

    Also, it isn't "grossly misrepresenting the relative strength of Breath of Sindragosa." Hell, just look at Encore's Gruul logs. Here's the one from this past week: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

    They have amazing DPS players in the guild. Jello is doing 80%-90% of some of the best DPS players in the world. I'd say he pretty much plays at the skill cap, but so does Hanno for example. It does also need a single target nerf. Sure, it's much more overpowered in multi-target situations, but it's still too good in single-target situations. And yea, the talent system for DKs is fucking awful. I hate it on mine.

  3. #4363
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzhoof View Post
    Again, I agree about the engaging gameplay, but you need to get this 75% bullshit (that they backtracked on multiple times already) out of your head. 75% of a DPS doesn't seem to be the goal currently, but we should probably get clarification on that.

    Also, it isn't "grossly misrepresenting the relative strength of Breath of Sindragosa." Hell, just look at Encore's Gruul logs. Here's the one from this past week: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

    They have amazing DPS players in the guild. Jello is doing 80%-90% of some of the best DPS players in the world. I'd say he pretty much plays at the skill cap, but so does Hanno for example. It does also need a single target nerf. Sure, it's much more overpowered in multi-target situations, but it's still too good in single-target situations. And yea, the talent system for DKs is fucking awful. I hate it on mine.
    Considering that Jellos has the current absolute top public parse on Gruul for tanks at 46.8k, and just getting in the top 200 for all classes currently takes 54,490.7 DPS, I'd be loathe to characterize what he's doing as "90% of a real DPS' DPS". That'd take somewhere in the realm of 4-5k more DPS than he's already doing with excellent trinket and ring RNG. Like, sure, he's keeping up somewhat with a rogue that's 4-5k off a respectable sub rogue parse, a warlock that's similarly far off a respectable lock parse, and he's 5k (which is 10%, for the record) behind a spec that just isn't very good at single-target at all.

    I mean, I seriously don't get what this obsession everyone has about wanting tanks to be absolutely rock-fucking-bottom of the meter by a country mile is. Do I want us anywhere near the top? No. But tanks NEED to be able to trade mitigation for MEANINGFUL DPS for any sort of compelling gameplay to exist, especially so during progression (where believe it or not survival is already trivial if you're good at what you do and understand how to design a strat around your class' limitations and strengths), and that ability to trade mitigation for meaningful DPS requires that tanks do remotely meaningful DPS in the first place. Nobody outside of Blood DKs currently do, and the fact that tank DPS is so irrelevant in the first place is just a fucking cop-out for the devs to not give a shit about tuning it properly as a whole. Not a single fucking hotfix this tier to tank DPS despite Blood DK being miles ahead of everybody else and Prot Paladins looking like a morbidly obese kid trying to play WR on a varsity football team - not even a fucking mention.

    Shit, a tank going balls to the fucking wall SHOULD do 90% of what a competent DPS does, and perhaps even be able to just keep up with superior RNG. Anything else results in gameplay where tanks do so little fucking DPS in the first place that they might as well not bother and the best way for a tank to help their raid becomes re-rolling to a DPS like so many top-tier tanks have done and continue to do. It's the only way to create healthy gameplay for tanks, because the alternative in terms of actually challenging good players is tuning Mythic bosses so tightly in terms of survival that they'll simply cockblock guilds that don't have top-notch tanks completely. Furthermore, if tank DPS is actually tuned to be remotely relevant, they have to fucking care if we're balanced properly or not - right now they just don't give a fuck.
    Last edited by mmoc312bb4353b; 2015-05-04 at 01:15 AM.

  4. #4364
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Shit, a Tank going balls to the fucking wall SHOULD do 90% of what a competent DPS does, and perhaps even be able to just keep up with superior RNG. Anything else results in gameplay where tanks do so little fucking DPS in the first place that they might as well not bother and the best way for a tank to help their raid becomes re-rolling to a DPS like so many top-tier tanks have done and continue to do. It's the only way to create healthy gameplay for tanks, because the alternative in terms of actually challenging good players is tuning Mythic bosses so tightly in terms of survival that they'll simply cockblock guilds that don't have top-notch tanks completely. Furthermore, if tank DPS is actually tuned to be remotely relevant, they have to fucking care if we're balanced properly or not - right now they just don't give a fuck.
    small correction there.

    otherwise, QFT, oh captain my captain

  5. #4365
    Deleted
    God, now you made me go back and edit that - I need to stop writing posts at 3 AM

  6. #4366
    Quote Originally Posted by Lazel View Post
    Give back vengeance
    gib back vengeance = gib back fun

    i've never seen so many tanks reroll to healers before this expansion

  7. #4367
    Deleted
    Vengeance back is the last thing we need. Vengeance was a cancer that made you do completely retarded shit during progression like standing in Annihilates to make DPS checks and made people do egregiously stupid shit to pad meters on farm at the expense of their entire raid.

    Tanks need a way to do relevant DPS at a significant cost to mitigation, whether that be Harsh Words, Breath of Sindragosa, or similar mechanics. What we don't fucking need is a mechanic brought back from the dead that made us approach every fight looking for new and novel ways to almost get ourselves killed in the name of AP. There's a really big fucking difference between a smart tank being able to use Harsh Word instead of SotR while not tanking anything anyway or while a major CD is up and standing in Annihilate like a fucking retard to vengeance cap.

  8. #4368
    Deleted
    You guys do realize what vengeance would have meant in this patch right? Monk solo tanking bosses and you losing your spot. It can happen on Oregorger, Hans, perhaps beastlord, kromog is a possibility too.

  9. #4369
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    I don't particularly see what the difference between abusing Vengeance and Harsh Words is personally. The latter trades active mitigation for damage, and the former maximizes mitigation to survive the most damage.

  10. #4370
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    Tank damage is a big issue that would make tanking more fun overall, but I still think blizzard needs to put a lot more focus on tank mechanics aswell. I can't think of a fight in BrF where tanks actually contribute anything meaningful towards the fight from a mechanic standpoint other than holding the boss, and no turning gruul to face a different group for each slice doesn't count as a random paladin can taunt and bubble soak it aswell it's not tank specific.

    Looking at something like even siege, tanks had fights where you had specific unique mechanics for you like norushens tank challenge (easy but still) or the siegecrafter shredder, spoils was set by the tanks pace somewhat as well, then there was paragons with the scorpion buff (not 100% a tank mechanic but tanks got the most out of it). I'm sure I missed a few but point is I feel they just don't give tanks anything to do anymore or they do their new deal like kargath which is pick you up for 6 seconds and make you unable to do anything. HFC from what I saw with PTR testing doesn't do anything to change that either Kormrok one of the bosses next tier puts you in a hand unable to do anything till the raid frees you (I'm hoping this is changed so you can at least use some mitigation). There's also fel lord zakuun which teleports you to a different phase to afk in a corner for 10 seconds.

    I just don't understand why they can't give tanks something interesting to do on any of these fights anymore. If all they can think of for new tank mechanics is make them unable to use abilities for 10+ seconds so you can think about why you are playing a tank instead of a dps that's pretty dumb. But maybe I'm just super bitter about what they're doing with tanking this xpac overall.
    Last edited by Accurate; 2015-05-04 at 01:53 AM.

  11. #4371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyuben View Post
    You guys do realize what vengeance would have meant in this patch right? Monk solo tanking bosses and you losing your spot. It can happen on Oregorger, Hans, perhaps beastlord, kromog is a possibility too.
    our monk tank soloed the last 6% of kormog during mythic progression.

    vengeance would push that to 60%.


    just saying. #OPmonkthings

  12. #4372
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Khiyone View Post
    I don't particularly see what the difference between abusing Vengeance and Harsh Words is personally. The latter trades active mitigation for damage, and the former maximizes mitigation to survive the most damage.
    Harsh Words doesn't encourage blatantly idiotic shit like standing in mechanics clearly designed to kill people. Vengeance does. Harsh Words and similar mechanics promote an understanding of when you can and cannot get away with sacrificing mitigation; Vengeance promotes bizarre choices in CD usage, taking an absurd amount of stacks, etc, all simply to cheese for AP.

    I could go on, but the basic idea is that mitigation-for-damage tradeoffs promote good, reflected gameplay while Vengeance promotes standing in shit like a fucking idiot.

  13. #4373
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Harsh Words doesn't encourage blatantly idiotic shit like standing in mechanics clearly designed to kill people. Vengeance does. Harsh Words and similar mechanics promote an understanding of when you can and cannot get away with sacrificing mitigation; Vengeance promotes bizarre choices in CD usage, taking an absurd amount of stacks, etc, all simply to cheese for AP.

    I could go on, but the basic idea is that mitigation-for-damage tradeoffs promote good, reflected gameplay while Vengeance promotes standing in shit like a fucking idiot.
    I'm fairly sure vengeance didn't work from standing in fire, it only worked on boss hits and stuff. Still, I'm glad its gone, the current system is pretty good, though I don't really see the need for vengeance or resolve, but then I'm just a guy doing a job, not the guy hiring people.

  14. #4374
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyuben View Post
    I'm fairly sure vengeance didn't work from standing in fire, it only worked on boss hits and stuff. Still, I'm glad its gone, the current system is pretty good, though I don't really see the need for vengeance or resolve, but then I'm just a guy doing a job, not the guy hiring people.
    It worked from standing in fire prior to 5.4, and a mechanic like Resolve or Vengeance is necessary as otherwise tanks would have to be tuned for a particular level of damage intake.

  15. #4375
    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzhoof View Post
    Again, I agree about the engaging gameplay, but you need to get this 75% bullshit (that they backtracked on multiple times already) out of your head. 75% of a DPS doesn't seem to be the goal currently, but we should probably get clarification on that.

    Also, it isn't "grossly misrepresenting the relative strength of Breath of Sindragosa." Hell, just look at Encore's Gruul logs. Here's the one from this past week: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

    They have amazing DPS players in the guild. Jello is doing 80%-90% of some of the best DPS players in the world. I'd say he pretty much plays at the skill cap, but so does Hanno for example. It does also need a single target nerf. Sure, it's much more overpowered in multi-target situations, but it's still too good in single-target situations. And yea, the talent system for DKs is fucking awful. I hate it on mine.
    Well I generally average 44-46k on that fight now. That isn't exactly 80% or more. Oh some of the people in my raid? Yes. I can tell you as Praises post right below yours said: Our lock, Rogue, and something else wasn't even near their max for their class. I can tell you we don't have the best dps. We have SOME(a moonkin, spriest, mage). The rest are pretty good.

    Basically in my raid yes I look like im beating dps and being at like 90-99% of their dmg. That is because they aren't all the best or even close to it. I am myself not even close to my max on that fight. I still play like shit. My soul reaper usage is awful. I've yet to be able to get that down to using every 6-7sec under 35%.

  16. #4376
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyuben View Post
    I'm fairly sure vengeance didn't work from standing in fire, it only worked on boss hits and stuff. Still, I'm glad its gone, the current system is pretty good, though I don't really see the need for vengeance or resolve, but then I'm just a guy doing a job, not the guy hiring people.
    In its first iteration, up until mid ToT I believe, this is exactly how vengeance worked.

    Blizz made some changes to it before Siege but I'm fairly sure (and someone can back me up here) that there was still ridiculous play in attempts to "whore vengeance", which is completely different from playing smart and trading am for dps on the fly.

    The reason you have vengeance/resolve is that tanks need to be able to scale against groups of enemies, otherwise it would be trivial for you to tank one thing or it would be impossible to tank 5. Resolve smooths the scaling by snapshotting your damage intake, therefore the more damage you are taking the more chance you can tank it (theoretically).

  17. #4377
    Ya up till Siege you could stand in shit on the ground to get vengeance. Also, /sitting was pretty cool too.

  18. #4378
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lyuben View Post
    I'm fairly sure vengeance didn't work from standing in fire, it only worked on boss hits and stuff. Still, I'm glad its gone, the current system is pretty good, though I don't really see the need for vengeance or resolve, but then I'm just a guy doing a job, not the guy hiring people.
    I mean I was soaking Annihilate during Garrosh progression to vengeance cap. It clearly still worked on SOME of the shit on the floor, you just couldn't stand in stuff like the falling rocks on Tortos any more. Whatever it was, it was still retarded in SoO, and it needs to stay dead and buried for good - unlike the concept of tanks doing relevant DPS, which desperately needs the Jesus treatment.
    Last edited by mmoc312bb4353b; 2015-05-04 at 03:15 AM.

  19. #4379
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Considering that Jellos has the current absolute top public parse on Gruul for tanks at 46.8k, and just getting in the top 200 for all classes currently takes 54,490.7 DPS, I'd be loathe to characterize what he's doing as "90% of a real DPS' DPS". That'd take somewhere in the realm of 4-5k more DPS than he's already doing with excellent trinket and ring RNG. Like, sure, he's keeping up somewhat with a rogue that's 4-5k off a respectable sub rogue parse, a warlock that's similarly far off a respectable lock parse, and he's 5k (which is 10%, for the record) behind a spec that just isn't very good at single-target at all.

    I mean, I seriously don't get what this obsession everyone has about wanting tanks to be absolutely rock-fucking-bottom of the meter by a country mile is. Do I want us anywhere near the top? No. But tanks NEED to be able to trade mitigation for MEANINGFUL DPS for any sort of compelling gameplay to exist, especially so during progression (where believe it or not survival is already trivial if you're good at what you do and understand how to design a strat around your class' limitations and strengths), and that ability to trade mitigation for meaningful DPS requires that tanks do remotely meaningful DPS in the first place. Nobody outside of Blood DKs currently do, and the fact that tank DPS is so irrelevant in the first place is just a fucking cop-out for the devs to not give a shit about tuning it properly as a whole. Not a single fucking hotfix this tier to tank DPS despite Blood DK being miles ahead of everybody else and Prot Paladins looking like a morbidly obese kid trying to play WR on a varsity football team - not even a fucking mention.

    Shit, a tank going balls to the fucking wall SHOULD do 90% of what a competent DPS does, and perhaps even be able to just keep up with superior RNG. Anything else results in gameplay where tanks do so little fucking DPS in the first place that they might as well not bother and the best way for a tank to help their raid becomes re-rolling to a DPS like so many top-tier tanks have done and continue to do. It's the only way to create healthy gameplay for tanks, because the alternative in terms of actually challenging good players is tuning Mythic bosses so tightly in terms of survival that they'll simply cockblock guilds that don't have top-notch tanks completely. Furthermore, if tank DPS is actually tuned to be remotely relevant, they have to fucking care if we're balanced properly or not - right now they just don't give a fuck.
    I thought that we were having a discussion about what Blizzard should do to accomplish their stated and implied design goals with tanks and not just talking about what we think would be wonderful if we were the developers. They don't want a tank to be able to do 90% of a competent DPSer's damage, and I think they're correct in that. If tanks were capable of doing 90% of a top spec's damage (I say top spec here, because you dismissed the people that Jello did 90% of due to their specs not being great single target, so it's obvious that you think tank damage should only be compared to Arcane Mages and other top 200 parsers in single-target), then we'd just run like 10 tanks in a raid and two heal every fight. It's ridiculous to ask that a tank compete with DPS. Most DPS players rightfully get upset when tanks are beating or competing with them. You also have to take into consideration that they don't want a great tank beating a good DPS. 90% is just too close to accomplish that.

    I don't want to do dog shit damage like we do now, but I think 60-70% of a DPSer is where we should be. It prevents guilds from stacking tanks, but doesn't make us irrelevant. Honestly 50% wouldn't make us irrelevant, but it feels bad to do that little. I also would like more compelling gameplay, but I think that a direct survivability for damage tradeoff like Harsh Words is a better design goal than a big cooldown like BoS or a mechanic like Vengeance. I know many of the people on this board loved Vengeance, but it was in encouraged play that was in direct opposition to what a tank is supposed to be doing.

  20. #4380
    There's nothing wrong with tanks competing with, or beating some DPS on a given fight. There are any number of mechanics that can be put in place to prevent you from stacking tanks (Vengeance was one); tanks are just DPS that have threat on the boss, this isn't Vanilla or something.

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