[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Proof]

Can't wait to try out LoV, and I really need a WUE to see how close I can get to the gcd cap (50% raid buffed haste) without Empowered Seals. If I can get reasonably close like Angus suggests (tentatively I'm hoping for at least the low 40% range), I could definitely get on board with switching to HS for progression and Seraphim for farming.

There are several Conq users in my group, so unfortunately I won't have my T18 set for another week or two. 2pc 17/2pc 18 sounds like a great setup for now, with AS triggering both the absorb shield and an increased block chance on cooldown. With all of the Crusader procs, and eventually the free AS procs from the 4-set, does anyone know whether the absorb shields from the T18 2pc bonus (and also the block bonus duration from T17 2pc, out of curiousity) will stack up, or do they simply overwrite?

In comparing heroic Archimonde pulls from this week with each talent (ES vs HS), I noticed a substantial drop in activity, from 73 casts per minute with ES to 63 with HS. This is to be expected of course, but I was pleasantly surprised to find my SotR uptime did not suffer in direct proportion. Of the 10 fewer casts per minute, on average only 4 to 5 of them were holy power generators. So a 14% drop in overall activity only translated to about 7-8% of SotR uptime lost, and HS held its own for damage dealt. I did not find it to be particularly helpful against the initial Death Brand strike, but I definitely held up longer against the ensuing dot and Deathcallers before resorting to cooldowns.

In summary, it seems the core Holy Power rotation can be executed reasonably well in any spec, and at least half of the additional casts generated by playing at the haste cap simply go towards a more robust filler rotation with more frequent casts of Consecrate, Holy Wrath, and Sacred Shield refreshes. This narrows the gap between ES and HS significantly, but I still need to come up with some haste thresholds where HS begins to surpass ES. And when Hammer of Wrath becomes available during an execute phase, the advantage of being at or near the haste cap becomes more pronounced again.

As for the issue of DPS/Survivability balance, I wouldn't say I prioritize DPS so much as look for ways to optimize it with minimal compromise in survivability. Since all our most desirable secondary stats (and all secondary stats, to a degree) provide significant benefit to both areas, we end up having a fair amount of room to fine tune this balance as we and our healers get better accustomed to the swap timing, positioning and cooldown requirements of each encounter.

Ultimately, the most appealing thing about the haste-capped rotation (and something that doesn't show up directly in sims) is that shorter GCDs and better resource generation grant you a number of decisions per minute, or opportunities to proactively improve your own survivability through prudent resource pooling and allocation during the course of the fight. Besides that, the many advantages of higher dps throughput such as efficient add control, improved raid dps uptime on critical targets, smoother phase transitions, shorter fights, higher relative buff uptimes, and impressive rankings are just gravy.

I'll check on that simcraft post, thanks Ganewate. Will also be back to share results as a couple of key gear changes bring a non-ES haste build within reach.

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Quick question. Is it worth dropping my BRF 4pc to upgrade normal (670) gloves to 705 Heroic HFC Mastery Multi gloves? Should I take the hit to my ilvl for the sake of holding on to the 4pc as long as possible?

Theck simmed the T17 set bonuses in his last sacred duty post, comparing their effectiveness with higher ilvl gear and found only a modest sacrifice of primary stats (ilvl) was warranted to keep a set bonus active (and even less so on fights with less than 100% tank uptime). In your case I would be fairly confident to break your T17 4pc for the 35 ilvl upgrade gloves, especially once you have another HFC upgrade to swap out your 3rd BRF tier piece (which were not particularly well itemized, except for the chest). Aside from that, you won't be able to keep your T17 4 piece as you progress through the Citadel, so it would make sense to start getting a feel for how the bosses hit without that block buff in place.

[Perini]

Hello! So I used to read Theck's blog at sacred duty.net whenever I needed to know something. But now that he's not doing that anymore, I'm not really sure where to go. Is there someone who keeps a blog similar to Sol's at summon stone that is just as easily digestible, but about prot and this tier?

Thanks

[havoc501]

Hey all. I am currently tanking normal and we are just starting heroic HFC. I am trying to make a list of the best glyphs and trinkets to use for each boss. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have been classifying each boss as either "magic damage" or "physical damage" as the primary means of taking tank damage. I am having a little difficulty with some bosses in determining if magic damage or physical damage is the primary contributor of damage to the tanks. I'd appreciate if anyone could look over the list below and let me know if I have it correct, or if there are any adjustments to make. So here are my primary questions:

1) Thoughts on the primary damage output from the bosses? Do I have this correct?
2) Thoughts on glyphs? I noticed a lot of tanks like the Glyph of Consecrator - would you use this over any of the other glyphs I have listed and why?
3) Trinkets - I have a hard time figuring out what trinkets to use when. Is there a good rule of thumb for when to use stam type of trinkets like TTT or Battering Talisman vs. more mitigation type of trinkets like Pol's Blinded Eye or BFD? I just picked up a normal version of WUE +socket +speed, so I was planning on using that for ALL fights, but am trying to figure out what I should use for my other trinket. I am currently using a heroic Battering Talisman. This puts me at about 537k HP raid buffed with Stam Flask and Stam food. I have been wary to let my buffed health go lower than 500k. But, is this really an issue? What would be considered the "minimum" buffed HP for heroic HFC?

I know there's a lot of questions and information all packed in above, but any comments, suggestions, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

[Kortiah]

Don't know why you would want focused shield on absolutely all those fights. As soon as it's not 100% single target, don't equip that.

Mandatory : Divine Protection on all fight except maybe Xhul.

Flex DPS glyph : Consecrator as soon as there are adds and you often move (typically Hellfire Assault). Swap for Focused Shield on Reaver/Council if Dia/Zakuun. Jeopardy if lots of adds but no movement (Iskar)

Utility : Hand of Sacrifice is an awesome glyph too. Tried it once, never unequipped it.

[Deleted]

Hey all. I am currently tanking normal and we are just starting heroic HFC. I am trying to make a list of the best glyphs and trinkets to use for each boss. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have been classifying each boss as either "magic damage" or "physical damage" as the primary means of taking tank damage. I am having a little difficulty with some bosses in determining if magic damage or physical damage is the primary contributor of damage to the tanks. I'd appreciate if anyone could look over the list below and let me know if I have it correct, or if there are any adjustments to make. So here are my primary questions:

1) Thoughts on the primary damage output from the bosses? Do I have this correct?
2) Thoughts on glyphs? I noticed a lot of tanks like the Glyph of Consecrator - would you use this over any of the other glyphs I have listed and why?
3) Trinkets - I have a hard time figuring out what trinkets to use when. Is there a good rule of thumb for when to use stam type of trinkets like TTT or Battering Talisman vs. more mitigation type of trinkets like Pol's Blinded Eye or BFD? I just picked up a normal version of WUE +socket +speed, so I was planning on using that for ALL fights, but am trying to figure out what I should use for my other trinket. I am currently using a heroic Battering Talisman. This puts me at about 537k HP raid buffed with Stam Flask and Stam food. I have been wary to let my buffed health go lower than 500k. But, is this really an issue? What would be considered the "minimum" buffed HP for heroic HFC?

I know there's a lot of questions and information all packed in above, but any comments, suggestions, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

You are wrong about every boss bar the first three, Zakuun, and Mannoroth. If you are tanking Gurtogg on High Council, then arguably the majority of the damage is magical, but you shouldn't be tanking Gurtogg in the first place since Monks and Bears are 10000x better at that and we're really fucking good at cheesing Blood Boil on Mythic.

You do not need 500k HP to do Heroics. Hell, I barely need 500k HP to do Mythics and I'm a gigantic pussy that also has to pull off shit like taking every stack of Blood Boil on Mythic Council without dying like a little bitch. If you are dying with 450k HP in Heroic, then either you are not playing correctly (and you should fix this instead of simply idiot-proofing yourself with stamina) or your healers are turds and need to have their behaviour corrected.

Consecrator will be better than Final Wrath on almost every fight with any sort of movement unless you are running SW (which unless you are very seasoned and very good at the class, you absolutely should not be doing) - the DPET for Consecration on single-target is actually slightly higher than that of Holy Wrath outside of execute/without GoFW, and obviously rapidly outscales Holy Wrath on multiple targets, so guaranteeing that you get every single tick of it in is a higher DPS increase than you would think.

Taking Focused Shield on every fight would be the height of idiocy. Go straight to the special needs class, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars levels of bad decisionmaking. Why on God's good Earth would you effectively sacrifice 66% of the potential damage from your AS casts and the majority of your AoE threat in a tier where literally every boss has cleave of some sort? The only fight where I have even BEGUN to consider Glyph of Focused Shield, apart from the no-brainer choice on Zakuun, is Mythic Council, and that's because I'm chilling in a corner in bumfuck nowhere with Dia for the entire fight. DO NOT TAKE GLYPH OF FOCUSED SHIELD UNLESS YOU KNOW EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND WHY YOU ARE DOING IT.

Hand of Sacrifice is mandatory on every fight unless you're a scumbagging cunt or doing content where half your raid can be AFK and still kill bosses. You have the opportunity to take a glyph that lets you use Hand of Sacrifice with literally no repercussions, and the opportunity cost is effectively Glyph of Final Wrath (which has minor impact without SW, a talent you should not be touching if you have to ask questions about stuff like glyphs in the first place) because on most fights you'll be running DP/Consecrator glyphs in the other two slots.

#EndGlyphRant

With regards to trinkets, mitigation trinkets such as Pol's generally outshine stamina trinkets - assuming competent play - unless you are actively struggling with an EHP check of some sort - i.e, if you are not dying in the span of 1-2 globals, then you will get more out of a trinket like Pol's than you will out of Battering Talisman (which is an absolute fucking godawful trinket, by the way - do not let the haste proc fool you into thinking that it is not the biggest, most viciously malodorous shitstain of a tank trinket Blizzard has dreamt up in years) so long as you are taking primarily physical damage. Magical damage is best dealt with through appropriate use of CDs, but stam trinkets and trinkets like LoV always shine in the case of low-frequency, high-amplitude damage intake - particularly if you ever have to just eat it with face (SMOrc'ing intensifies) rather than a CD of some sort. For high-frequency, low-amplitude magical damage (or, well, spell damage, since it also works on stuff like Blood Boil on Mythic), spec Holy Shield and enjoy the one aspect of your class that is uniquely and disgustingly broken this tier.

[Gaust]

A few questions.

What are people's opinions on Holy Prism's Heal?
Bleeding Hollow vs. Blackrock?
Holy Avenger vs. Divine Purpose (ignoring DPS)?


Thanks.

[Hellkung]

So how dead is Seraphim?



I miss it.

[Deleted]

So how dead is Seraphim?



I miss it.

Seraphim is far from dead and absolutely playable on quite a few Mythic bosses this tier. I doubt it'll ever measure fully up to HS as a survivability talent again, but there are a number of fights where you can play it without hampering your guild at all.

For example, to name one example, had I not been designated to get hit with literally every single Blood Boil over the course of the encounter, I very likely would have taken Seraphim for Council - for the simple reason that there is no reason not to. I also find it very likely that I will at the very least try Seraphim on Iskar.

[Haulstrum]

Coined ACP tonight in a PUG WOOT! First time I've coined anything I need Bye Bye Knight's Badge!!

[Hellkung]

Seraphim is far from dead and absolutely playable on quite a few Mythic bosses this tier. I doubt it'll ever measure fully up to HS as a survivability talent again, but there are a number of fights where you can play it without hampering your guild at all.

For example, to name one example, had I not been designated to get hit with literally every single Blood Boil over the course of the encounter, I very likely would have taken Seraphim for Council - for the simple reason that there is no reason not to. I also find it very likely that I will at the very least try Seraphim on Iskar.

Since I only see myself ever tanking HC on my paladin, what fights should I defo not be using it? The only I can think of right now is Xhul, where you go HS or gtfo.

Any similar examples?

[Hellkung]

Fel Lord, Tyrant, Archimonde , Socrethar , Mannaroth

Thanks for the quick response.

[Deleted]

Thanks for the quick response.

You can use Seraphim on Socrethar, honestly. I'm usually the Construct tank and you can definitely use it in P1 - I can't actually recall what he does in P2 so you might not want to use Seraphim if you tank him throughout the whole fight.

[Deleted]

A long-time forum reader and a prot pala since 5.2 from Finland here. I switched to Holy in 6.2 for my guilds needs, and today wanted to mess around with Prot again just to find out that my Judgment is granting me 2 Holy Power. What is this, did i miss something or wth?

[Hellkung]

You can use Seraphim on Socrethar, honestly. I'm usually the Construct tank and you can definitely use it in P1 - I can't actually recall what he does in P2 so you might not want to use Seraphim if you tank him throughout the whole fight.

Nothing really aside from normal aa, apocalypse which is 10 sec raid wide magical dmg and casts you need to intterupt. He doesn't hit hard either, Dominator hits harder than him.

I guess Seraphim makes sense as an extra CD for P1 tanking and just extra dmg for the Dominator in P2.

[Deleted]

A long-time forum reader and a prot pala since 5.2 from Finland here. I switched to Holy in 6.2 for my guilds needs, and today wanted to mess around with Prot again just to find out that my Judgment is granting me 2 Holy Power. What is this, did i miss something or wth?

Your Judgment is not granting you two Holy Power. If you are a Blood Elf, and you have Arcane Torrent macro'd into everything, then perhaps your initial Judgment cast is granting you two Holy Power, but Judgment itself absolutely only generates one Holy Power and if it's doing anything else for you then it's a bug that you need to report.

[Won7on]

Thanks for all the advice on the Haste/Mastery BiS lists. I went out, crafted a Haste/BA neck, re-gemmed/re-enchanted a bunch of things, and used some alternate pieces... and now I have two sets of gear, one with 1724 Haste for EmpSeals, and one with 3562 for Holy Shield. Both still have T17 2pc, and neither sacrifices any significant item level (I didn't need to use any terrible pieces to make it work).

I gotta say, Holy Shield with 46% Haste feels awesome, I'm pumped to raid tomorrow now.

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So quick question: Do you guys use Str or Stam flasks?

[Miayu]

Seraphim is far from dead and absolutely playable on quite a few Mythic bosses this tier. I doubt it'll ever measure fully up to HS as a survivability talent again, but there are a number of fights where you can play it without hampering your guild at all.

For example, to name one example, had I not been designated to get hit with literally every single Blood Boil over the course of the encounter, I very likely would have taken Seraphim for Council - for the simple reason that there is no reason not to. I also find it very likely that I will at the very least try Seraphim on Iskar.

I don't think the damage output of Holy Shield on Council is greater than the damage output you would get from Seraphim, especially if you still have T17 2pc.
Taking the Blood Boils is no reason not to take Seraphim though. You cannot block the Blood Boils. Well at least I can't (Or I can't read logs and the reflect part of Holy Shield doesn't work on it).
Surviving the Nightmare Visage is easy enough though with Holy Shield, just pool 5 HP, maybe even pool a GC proc, use DP and have perma uptime on ShotR, T17 2pc and DP.
Also Holy Shield helps you plenty against Mark of the Necromancer and helps on the damage on Jubei'thos when he's Windwalking (You reflect all of the images' Felstorms)

[Rewyn]

So if Protadins are the weakest tanks at current (which I see noted in a few different forums) what are considered the ranking tanks? Guardians? Blood? Monk?

[Sepelio]

Guardian>Blood=Monk(4pc)>Warrior=Monk(no 4pc)> Paladin

Not quite so black and white obviously because fight specific strengths and weaknesses

[Deleted]

So if Protadins are the weakest tanks at current (which I see noted in a few different forums) what are considered the ranking tanks? Guardians? Blood? Monk?

Agi tanks > strength tanks, basically. The Agi tanks are roughly equally broken once Monks have 4-set (although Guardian is significantly easier to pull off during progression content since Monks actually have to WORK for their broken state this tier), whereas all the plate tanks are pretty much playable in progression content, albeit with each their own significant weaknesses. Granted, DK has some very, very strong utility on fights like Xhul'horac that seem to be "bring 3 DKs or go home" on Mythic, but in general the strength tanks each have their fight where they shine.

In my opinion if the current state of Agi tanks was remedied the tanks would be pretty much in a perfect state, balance-wise. I can't say I particularly mind Monk being overpowered this tier because a bad Monk is going to die like a little bitch this tier (unlike last tier where if you could hit Serenity and spam BoK every time it came off CD you were effectively immortal - there was so much free healing going out due to the abundance of double-HPaladin setups that you could get away with purifying very, very rarely on most bosses), but Guardian, much like 6.1 Monk, is far too easy to play for how strong it is.