[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[trystero]

Whole talent annoys me and doesn't really provide me with much. Seraphim provides a nice bonus now and then, useful obviously for tank swaps but also for chaining some CD usage. Cool ability - I never thought I'd like it, and I kind of do. HS is valuable for obvious reasons; just passively boosts survival. ES just makes things more complicated without giving much reward over the others.

[celinamuna]

Its just pathetic that they stealth nerfed holy shield to only reflect damage on spells and not melee hits

It's not a stealth nerf, it was that way on beta for over 2 month.

[Deleted]

Why, does it add too much complex to the rotation?

No, it's just another shit thing you need to stare at a buff timer for. Inquisition 2.0 can suck a dick.

There's nothing complex or interesting about it.

[Kazuchika]

Oh I get it it's the hip thing to like Empowered Seals ironically.

Just kidding it's shit.

[Deleted]

On another topic, roughly where would we be compared to the other tanks atm?

Healers in my guild have commented that Warriors are easy to heal, while I personally feel like my health bar jumps around a bit as a Paladin (even if we're down to not really taking mana breaks in heroics anymore). Just wondering how "good" we are at surviving relative to the other tanks, with a view towards CMs and a set gear level.

[Deleted]

I actually quite like Seraphim for 5mans. It's up for basically every/every other trash pack. Get to use it a few times per boss, depending on HP. I was getting some meaty crits, creeping up to 100k, with it active. Your main target just melts in seconds.

[celinamuna]

Oh I get it it's the hip thing to like Empowered Seals ironically.

Just kidding it's shit.

A number of people like it since it was first mentioned on beta.

In part because old prot rotation was so challenging and complicated that it took me ~ 15 min to automate a script that did all of it for me (not accounting for taunting and EF usage) during 5.4

[Venz]

Okay apparently Holy shield is better when I spec for it I die on every single pack I normally survive without a healer using EMPs.

I also do about 40% less dps for some reason when I spec for holy shield , weird. Must be RNG.

ok lazel, how are you playing EMPS then, keeping insight and righteousness up, or what? all 3? how does it fit into your rotation?

[celinamuna]

Btw wtf is going on with SS tooltip ?
With the same exact ap values i've got : 5032, 6541 (ms?) absorbs (or so it seems) as tooltip for the 6 second buff, and for the actual effect : 4890, 9781(crit?)

So, which of the following scenarios are possible ?
- Normal
- Normal + Shining protector
- Normal + ms
- Normal + Shining Protector + ms
- Crit
- Crit + Shining protector
- Crit + ms
- Crit + Shining Protector + ms

Can MS proc from shining protector ?

And if my guesses with crit/ms are correct, why are the values of the SS buff (long duration one) affected by it ?

[Kanadei]

Okay apparently Holy shield is better when I spec for it I die on every single pack I normally survive without a healer using EMPs.

I also do about 40% less dps for some reason when I spec for holy shield , weird. Must be RNG.

I feel like if you are going to make gigantic sweeping statements like this you should probably back it up with some numbers or examples or at the very least properly structured sentences.

As has been said before, how are you using EMPs?
What packs are you dying on comparitively? What is the difference in cooldown usage?
What was your dps before? After? With EMPs? With Sera?

Challenge peoples opinion as much as you want; just provide some actual basis for discussion when you do so.

[Jackielope]

I would not recommend looking too much into SS's tooltip. Reason being is it's known to not be accurate. It doesn't update with Versatility, for example, so there's very easily some issues going on behind the scenes. I guess get screenshots and logs and start posting them so there are more records of it behaving weird?

Shining Protector itself does not have a chance to MS or crit as far as we know. It might be worth getting logs to make absolutely sure.

[Xucuroz]

I too find EMPS to be better after playing around with both it and Holy shield when tanking 5 mans. My biggest problem with Holy Shield is i simply don't feel any stronger while using it, not to mention since it doesn't do damage from physical blocks it doesn't seem to be any good for damage either. While EMPS feels sorta clunky at first, i feel the buffs it provides is worth putting up with it. Since self healing has dropped off the face of the planet, i actually notice the extra healing EMPS does with the Insight buff (Uthers Insight). It's made the difference between surviving and dying in certain situations i think, especially with flakey healers.

I personally don't attempt to keep all 3 buffs active at once since it's a waste of time. I normally roll with Truth and Insight. I don't keep the righteous buff (Liadrins Righteousness) up as much simply because haste doesn't seem to matter too much. Only times it ever goes up is if it's an aoe pack of course.

I personally won't be touching Seraphim, as no matter how good the stat increase is, costing 5 holy power for a 15 second buff on a 30 second cd to me doesn't seem worth it. Perhaps i'll give it a try eventually (as well as giving Holy shield another go), but for now i'm content at least until tier gear. I really feel that our level 100 talents leave a lot to be desired..

On another note, i kind of hate being so reliant on healers again as a tank. I know that's how it should be, but given how hit and miss most healers seem to be, it's made life a bit harder.

[Jackielope]

Okay apparently Holy shield is better when I spec for it I die on every single pack I normally survive without a healer using EMPs.

I also do about 40% less dps for some reason when I spec for holy shield , weird. Must be RNG.

Considering we've already known for a while that HS is bugged to not reflect damage on melee attack blocks it should be expected that it won't perform for offense.

As far as defense goes, assuming you're at 100 and have acceptable gear then logs of you using HS vs EmpS would be in order in case there is something to be learned either from the way you're using EmpS or from the numbers themselves showing inconsistencies.

[celinamuna]

As far as defense goes, assuming you're at 100 and have acceptable gear then logs of you using HS vs EmpS would be in order in case there is something to be learned either from the way you're using EmpS or from the numbers themselves showing inconsistencies.

What numbers ? The simcraft ones ? The same ones that i've pointed out at least a few inconsistencies with the first time they were posted ?
Again, not to sound like a broken record, but ES/Seraph expands our rotation on so many levels that i wouldn't be surprised if our current APL can be drastically improved.
Even back in ToT with a few minor adjustments to our default APL i was able to get +10-15% dps bonus (for virtually no TMI/DTPS decrease)
Currently there is a lot more going on, and I have no idea how to calculate proper apl (especially once we remember that most fights aren't patchwerk, and *different stat builds give different results*)

For example, in aoe situation, the more crit i get the stronger HA/DP get, while SW remains constant or even possibly loses weight. (It's still true to an extend in ST, but in AoE it's a lot more noticeable)

[Jackielope]

What numbers ? The simcraft ones ?

No. The log numbers. If there are inconsistencies between the log and SimC or other numbers then they need to be noted. It is still possible to find surprises like that either with the ability numbers or on some ability interactions.

[celinamuna]

No. The log numbers. If there are inconsistencies between the log and SimC or other numbers then they need to be noted. It is still possible to find surprises like that either with the ability numbers or on some ability interactions.

Then you mean simcraft.

You are testing for inconsistencies, between X and Y. If we have his log № we still need Y. (The only inconsistency we can see from his individual logs is how much variance he can get due to rng)

However, as i explained before, our Y variable is slightly.... odd.

Due to :
1)Different gear than the one that simcraft was testing talents in
2)Most like different ~APL~
3)Differences in how simcraft was calculated.

Currently looking at theck's detailed analysis (file:///C:/Users/Bitflux/Downloads/talents_L100.html) i can notice at least a few key points
a)DPS aspect - HS deals damage every 2.46 sec (SS__DP__HolyS) which in reality is a lot lower due to only procing off magic attacks
b)DPS aspect part 2 - the given profile uses 648 crit and 739 mastery, the ratio of crit to mastery is a lot worse in a profile than what lazel (and I) use. As a result of this, even with HS we would --> block less due to parrying more + block less due to having less mastery
c)Survival - as we have gathered from the previous part HS is simply relatively weaker for us due to having more crit --> more parry --> less attacks landing on us in the first place.

[jeanbono]

Hi there,

I'm currently using HS and I'm curious about EmpS. Do you want to keep all 3 buffs at once or are you only keeping 2. What seal do you try to keep active most of the time if all 3 buffs are up ?

Thanks for the answers !

[Deleted]

Hi there,

I'm currently using HS and I'm curious about EmpS. Do you want to keep all 3 buffs at once or are you only keeping 2. What seal do you try to keep active most of the time if all 3 buffs are up ?

Thanks for the answers !

RTFT. Lazel has already answered this.

[Deleted]

Are you guys using a macro to switch between EmpS or just manually keybinding each seal and doing it yourself?

[Trep]

I have been using HS since day 1 of level 100 and have ran Heroics as both Prot and Ret. When I go in as Ret with other tanks (Warrior/Druid/DK) I notice their hp bar does not jump as significantly as mine does. Now this could mean a number of things, like different healers for example properly pre healing incoming attacks or my uptime of SoR lacking etc. but I have always pegged myself to be an above "average" player (once again I could be wrong here LOLOL).

One thing I do know though is that I trust anything Lazal and Celinamuna say. They are both very knowledgable about their class and have provided me with as much if not more help than Theck has in playing a Prot Pally. The only thing Theck has on them IMO is hes a freakin Rocket Scientist for real and has hella detailed numbers to match his theories.

With all of that being said I believe I am going to try EmpS tonight after I sit down and make a WA for them. I will make the WA separate from my Prot CDs and Rotational Ability CDs so that I can post it here when I am done for others to benefit until someone else makes one that is prettier >.>

I will post any results here as well after my trials.

EDIT: Also, let me mention that I properly CC where as the other tanks 8/10 times just "Wrath it up" (in reference the WoTLK Style tanking of pulling everything)