[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Venz]

I know 1 paladin tank (7/7 HC, so nothing really serious) who thinks that proper Seraphim usage means pooping it every 2m with HA, and ignoring it for the rest of the fight... Thankfully we aren't doing any hardcore progression, so I don't have to shout at he yet.

LOL this physically hurt to read and after a brief trip to the doctor I'm back to write this post so that you can inform said paladin that he misclicked the "Holy Shield" talent.

[Deleted]

I don't understand this. It's a talent which anyone can take, irrespective of skill level.

What's not to get? A lot of people, when faced with passives and actives on a class they're not that experienced with, will go with the passive. Same deal if they're not that bothered about maxing performance and just take some random person's advice, or whichever is most attractive at first glance. I do it myself on classes I enjoy but don't actually care about doing particularly well on (Hunter, Lock, DK mainly). I don't think I've seen a single other Prot out and about - and I pretty much always inspect - using a talent setup that isn't DP&HS so it's reasonable to assume that the majority will go for the one that looks easiest on paper; the passive.

It's smarter to just give those people the best setup possible for those "lazy" choices than tell/expect them to take a talent and gear setup they don't have the knowledge to pull off. In the end they'll probably do better using HS/DP/Mastery effectively than using Seraphim/HA(or SW)/Crit poorly.

http://www.wowpopular.com/Paladin/Protection

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

What's not to get? A lot of people, when faced with passives and actives on a class they're not that experienced with, will go with the passive. Same deal if they're not that bothered about maxing performance and just take some random person's advice, or whichever is most attractive at first glance. I do it myself on classes I enjoy but don't actually care about doing particularly well on (Hunter, Lock, DK mainly). I don't think I've seen a single other Prot out and about - and I pretty much always inspect - using a talent setup that isn't DP&HS so it's reasonable to assume that the majority will go for the one that looks easiest on paper; the passive.

It's smarter to just give those people the best setup possible for those "lazy" choices than tell/expect them to take a talent and gear setup they don't have the knowledge to pull off. In the end they'll probably do better using HS/DP/Mastery effectively than using Seraphim/HA(or SW)/Crit poorly.

http://www.wowpopular.com/Paladin/Protection

According to that website, Righteous Retreat only gets three stars out of ten popularity rating. This alone is enough to make me feel depressed.

[Deleted]

wanted to try holy shield with DP for 1 try on brackenspore , we kill it. F-M-L.

Was it noticeable different in terms of survivability cause ive always just used Seraphim for each kill?

[Candlemaster]

wanted to try holy shield with DP for 1 try on brackenspore , we kill it. F-M-L.

By DP do you mean divine protection unglyphed or glyphed or do you mean divine purpose? DP stands for way too much now. >.> I keep thinking DP stands for divine plea (RIP stupid buff spell)

[trystero]

What's not to get? A lot of people, when faced with passives and actives on a class they're not that experienced with, will go with the passive. Same deal if they're not that bothered about maxing performance and just take some random person's advice, or whichever is most attractive at first glance. I do it myself on classes I enjoy but don't actually care about doing particularly well on (Hunter, Lock, DK mainly). I don't think I've seen a single other Prot out and about - and I pretty much always inspect - using a talent setup that isn't DP&HS so it's reasonable to assume that the majority will go for the one that looks easiest on paper; the passive.

It's smarter to just give those people the best setup possible for those "lazy" choices than tell/expect them to take a talent and gear setup they don't have the knowledge to pull off. In the end they'll probably do better using HS/DP/Mastery effectively than using Seraphim/HA(or SW)/Crit poorly.

http://www.wowpopular.com/Paladin/Protection

What's not to get is assuming that someone taking a talent automatically renders this person competent enough to understand the nuances of that talent, especially when it's a thing to armory hump better players. And obviously players will take talents for idiosyncratic reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with armories or their skill levels. It's one thing to say that AMR defaults to HS since it is the most popular talent and another to assume players talenting Seraphim understand what it is they're doing.

- - - Updated - - -

Was it noticeable different in terms of survivability cause ive always just used Seraphim for each kill?

I really like that combo for survival. On our M Brackenspore attempts I've yet to die to either the add or the boss; not having to dump 5 HP in Seraphim allows me way more flexibility to react to incoming damage. To be fair I also yelled at our healers pretty hard before pulling.

[Deleted]

What's not to get is assuming that someone taking a talent automatically renders this person competent enough to understand the nuances of that talent, especially when it's a thing to armory hump better players. And obviously players will take talents for idiosyncratic reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with armories or their skill levels. It's one thing to say that AMR defaults to HS since it is the most popular talent and another to assume players talenting Seraphim understand what it is they're doing.

I misinterpreted your complaint a bit since you quoted the whole thing, but take a look at the wowpopular link and you'll see basically everyone is using HS. I'm fairly confident the kind of person who uses Seraphim without knowing how or why is going to get crushed, decide Seraphim is worse than HS, then go back to their comfort zone. I think it's reasonable to assume the majority of people using Seraphim long-term actually know what they're doing, or will try to understand it better and end up in threads like this one.

Theck worded it a bit too absolutely maybe, that's all. All I think he was getting at is that there's more benefit in using his time to make sure people gear for Holy Shield properly since so many use it, rather than worrying about catering to the small amount of Seraphim players that aren't clued in, or those that are simply too bad to actually get the benefit out of it.

[Theck]

What's not to get is assuming that someone taking a talent automatically renders this person competent enough to understand the nuances of that talent, especially when it's a thing to armory hump better players. And obviously players will take talents for idiosyncratic reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with armories or their skill levels. It's one thing to say that AMR defaults to HS since it is the most popular talent and another to assume players talenting Seraphim understand what it is they're doing.

That was a bit tongue-in-cheek, but it's more or less correct.

1) Holy Shield is by far the more popular talent. Hence, biasing the defaults towards HS makes sense.

2) If you take Seraphim and play very badly, then your best bet is to stack stats that are good at passive mitigation, because you suck. What are those stats? Mastery and Stamina, the same ones the Holy Shield weights push. So these weights are also good for "bad players using Seraphim."

3) If you take Seraphim and want to get the most out of it, presumably you're doing at least some research as to how to do so. In which case you should have stumbled across stat weights somewhere, and should be able to enter them yourself.

I mean, the question is a bit pedantic anyway. If you're playing like shit, you're going to perform like garbage regardless of what you stack. And the stat weights generated using a model that plays properly are unlikely to be at all accurate in the first place. At that point, does it really matter what stat you prioritize? Because it's not even clear what the correct stat is if you're playing severely sub-optimally.

[celinamuna]

wanted to try holy shield with dp for 1 try on brackenspore , we kill it. F-m-l.

bwhaahahahahahahahaha

[Bobby1291]

You have to enable a metric called TMI in the options menu.

Go to the Options tab, and you'll see three sections. The middle one has "Target and Tanking Options." Under that is "Target Type" which needs to be set to "TMI standard boss." A couple lines down there is "TMI Standard Boss" which can be selected for various raid levels. Pick one that will most closely match the content you're doing and then you're set for getting the TMI graph assuming you enable scaling.

Thank you so much for replying to me, I'll get right on this after I get everything done with my reinstall of Windows lol. Thanks again.

[Haioden]

6.1 has buffs all around for Prot Paladin... am I the only one who thinks its not needed?

[Rangar]

6.1 has buffs all around for Prot Paladin... am I the only one who thinks its not needed?

I believe more than a few of those are tooltip fixes from the previously implemented hotfixes. I could be wrong though.

[Jackielope]

Thank you so much for replying to me, I'll get right on this after I get everything done with my reinstall of Windows lol. Thanks again.

You're welcome! Do keep in mind the latest download has tweaked the graphical user interface, so there might be slight differences. It shouldn't be too big of an issue sorting it out though.

I believe more than a few of those are tooltip fixes from the previously implemented hotfixes. I could be wrong though.

Definitely. The changes to GC and our mastery in particular pop out. I'm really hoping they either find a way to make haste worthwhile for us or they swap our attunement to mastery or something.

[Jellospally]

6.1 has buffs all around for Prot Paladin... am I the only one who thinks its not needed?

all are tooltip fixes / fixes put it recently the PTR is just being update to be like live.

[Vergilius]

The datamining finds changes in the tooltip text, so it will pick up pure tooltip changes as well as new buffs/nerfs/tweaks. I'm not sure about all the AP scaling changes, but I'd imagine everything is old changes where the tooltips just haven't been updated since we haven't had a real patch. I doubt they'd buff prot DPS right now.

[Candlemaster]

So divine bulwarks tooltip was actually wrong and currently only gives 4% dmg reduc from sotr? I know you guys have been saying that many tooltips were wrong but I don't remember anyone actually listing which abilities had incorrect tooltips. Also insert obligatory jaden smith quote: If our tooltips aren't real how can we be real?

[Vergilius]

it's been 4% since they changed our mastery coefficient. It's like a month old change, they increased the base dmg reduction from 20% to 25% and reduced how much % you get from mastery

[Deleted]

Were they all tooltip changes then?

Don't get me wrong, I'm just happy they aren't nerfing us lol.

[Vergilius]

Were they all tooltip changes then?

Don't get me wrong, I'm just happy they aren't nerfing us lol.

This is just the first build, I'd imagine the balance changes will come in time. So don't get too happy yet lol.

[Theck]

Were they all tooltip changes then?

Yes. All of those are tooltip changes to reflect the hotfixes we've gotten since SoO.

Or more accurately, they're actually moving the hotfixes to the actual spell data so that the tooltips reflect the correct values. The way they've done hotfixes in WoD is... irritating at best, in that they stuff them into a bunch of "Hotfix" spells rather than modifying the spell data for each spell directly.

In any event, there are no buffs for us in the patch notes whatsoever. At least, not yet.