[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Enosh]

is there even seal twisting is all we get is SoR and SoI? most people didn't bother using the SoI buff anyway, is the 1%->2% buff a big enough change to care now?

[Deleted]

is there even seal twisting is all we get is SoR and SoI? most people didn't bother using the SoI buff anyway, is the 1%->2% buff a big enough change to care now?

I'd most likely only twist SoI if I A: need the survivability, or B: have free globals.

[celinamuna]

Well, you were the one who said "significantly stronger than the other 2 talents." Based on that word use we'd be in agreement on the issue. Are you revising that claim?

Was talking about Haste + AP one.

[Deleted]

Was talking about Haste + AP one.

I mean, at this point, the issue with EmpS is that they either have to tune it to be worth taking for the average player (in which case it becomes obnoxiously OP for the 99th percentile player), or tune it to only be competitive with the other talents if you can execute it perfectly (in which case it becomes obnoxiously useless for the average player). Seraphim already has skill-floor issues, and EmpS, with its current design, is doomed to have either floor or ceiling issues.

[celinamuna]

I mean, at this point, the issue with EmpS is that they either have to tune it to be worth taking for the average player (in which case it becomes obnoxiously OP for the 99th percentile player), or tune it to only be competitive with the other talents if you can execute it perfectly (in which case it becomes obnoxiously useless for the average player). Seraphim already has skill-floor issues, and EmpS, with its current design, is doomed to have either floor or ceiling issues.

I mean.... it's not like that's the case with a few other talents.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I mean, at this point, the issue with EmpS is that they either have to tune it to be worth taking for the average player (in which case it becomes obnoxiously OP for the 99th percentile player), or tune it to only be competitive with the other talents if you can execute it perfectly (in which case it becomes obnoxiously useless for the average player). Seraphim already has skill-floor issues, and EmpS, with its current design, is doomed to have either floor or ceiling issues.

Isn't that the same for about half the level 100 talents in the game right now?

[Emrus]

I mean, at this point, the issue with EmpS is that they either have to tune it to be worth taking for the average player (in which case it becomes obnoxiously OP for the 99th percentile player), or tune it to only be competitive with the other talents if you can execute it perfectly (in which case it becomes obnoxiously useless for the average player). Seraphim already has skill-floor issues, and EmpS, with its current design, is doomed to have either floor or ceiling issues.

I don't agree at all that is the case for EmpS. Traditionally, EmpS has had trouble providing enough incentive to even twist at all. Unlike seraphim where you are at a severe disadvantage if you "forget" to use it, with EmpS you always get at least one of the buffs. Furthermore, EmpS does have a noticeable opportunity cost associated to twisting which significantly reduces the bonus of perfect play. IMO EmpS is skillwise right in the middle between an active talent and a passive talent.

[Theck]

Yeah, I'd have to agree - I think even the 3-seal version of Empowered Seals was easier to play than Seraphim. At least in the sense that the skill required was less - the penalty for screwing up was much less severe (lose a little uptime on one of three buffs). The two-seal version should be even less so. The issues with the talent were more that (a) tuning was such that there was no compelling reason to use it, and (b) a lot of people find the "maintenance buff" gameplay less satisfying. It's not yet clear that this revision fixes either of those problems. I suspect it at least fixes (a), though I'll be running some sims (hopefully today) to figure that out for sure. I'll have to play with it some on PTR to decide whether I still feel (b) is a problem.

The curious part about (b) is that I had the same concern with Seraphim during beta. But playing with Seraphim doesn't feel at all maintenance-y. It's actually a lot of fun. I think that's partly because it doesn't cost a GCD (and the opportunity cost is SotR - also off-GCD), and partly because it's such a large effect that you can really feel the difference between on/off phases. The latter is very important, because it means you look forward to pressing that button and going into holy beast mode.

[Reghame]

if righteousness would give AP and the haste buff from one judgement that would be a major change. even though its one GCD per 15-20 seconds, its also a buff uptime because sometimes it would be worth it ( at least for ret ) to sometimes lets the buff uptime slip if it meant not wasting GCDs and such.

i highly doubt they would give both though. Thanks for clearance on the seal of command thing, was about to flip some tables over here :P

[celinamuna]

The curious part about (b) is that I had the same concern with Seraphim during beta. But playing with Seraphim doesn't feel at all maintenance-y. It's actually a lot of fun.

http://i.imgur.com/0KbOXKc.png

Personally i find EmpS more fun, and while i enjoy Sera over HS, i also enjoy EmpS over Sera due to not having to do the whole shenanigan with wasting Div Prot to cover us the 15 sec of no Sera, when we're also holding out on SotRs to have 5 HS.

[lakhesis]

So...
Who knows how to make a weakaura for double jeopardy ?

Answering my own & your requests, here's a Double Jeopardy Target Tracker weakaura.

It's got 3x auras in a group.

The first checks the combatlog for the player casting judgment & grabs the GUID of the target it's cast on (so it *will* work with focus targets, targetlasttarget, et cetera). It's working from Judgment's spell ID so this one should work in non-english clients.

The second puts up a green tick if you have a target, you have the glyph of double jeopardy buff up, and your target's GUID does not match the GUID saved by the grabber aura. This one checks for the double jeopardy glyph by its english name, so it probably won't work in non-english clients.

The third is a red cross if you have a target + glyph of double jeopardy buff, but your target's GUID matches the grabbed GUID. Probably english only again.

Worth noting:
- I haven't written a function in any programming language in 15 years. It seems to work, but all of it is custom LUA that's created by me & I'm not a coder.
- It might not be the most efficient (to allow for stuff like focus targets I had to get it to check all combatlog events) and it might blow up if something weird happens (I don't think it will... but hey, what do I know?)
- It's not very pretty. Change the icons & move them around to suit your own UI - that's pretty straightforward stuff.

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[Deleted]

You think we're going with EmpS with the next patch? i don't know if is really worth loose 2 GCD every X sec to refresh buffs..

[Deleted]

You think we're going with EmpS with the next patch? i don't know if is really worth loose 2 GCD every X sec to refresh buffs..

You're forgetting to account for the fact that at 20% haste, just sitting in SoR is likely giving us more free GCDs in that timespan than we'd be spending to keep the two buffs up.

[Deleted]

The curious part about (b) is that I had the same concern with Seraphim during beta. But playing with Seraphim doesn't feel at all maintenance-y. It's actually a lot of fun. I think that's partly because it doesn't cost a GCD (and the opportunity cost is SotR - also off-GCD), and partly because it's such a large effect that you can really feel the difference between on/off phases. The latter is very important, because it means you look forward to pressing that button and going into holy beast mode.

Yeah, this is totally my gripe with it. It's the same issue I had with Inquisition in that while it's obviously a good thing you need to keep up, the effect isn't really discernable because you spend very little time out of it. It's just up, then you refresh it, and it doesn't feel like you just did a thing.

With Seraphim, you hit that button and you get faster attacks, more crits, more multistrikes, higher numbers overall, before going back to normal. You *feel* the effect of it every time you press it. When you're maintaining a buff that is (supposed to be) up 100% of the time it's hard to really feel like it's doing anything at all, even if it's adding 30% extra damage or 20% haste, because that buffed state becomes your new "normal".

[celinamuna]

Answering my own & your requests, here's a Double Jeopardy Target Tracker weakaura.

It's got 3x auras in a group.

The first checks the combatlog for the player casting judgment & grabs the GUID of the target it's cast on (so it *will* work with focus targets, targetlasttarget, et cetera). It's working from Judgment's spell ID so this one should work in non-english clients.

The second puts up a green tick if you have a target, you have the glyph of double jeopardy buff up, and your target's GUID does not match the GUID saved by the grabber aura. This one checks for the double jeopardy glyph by it's english name, so it probably won't work in non-english clients.

The third is a red cross if you have a target + glyph of double jeopardy buff, but your target's GUID matches the grabbed GUID. Probably english only again.

Worth noting:
- I haven't written a function in any programming language in 15 years. It seems to work, but all of it is custom LUA that's created by me & I'm not a coder.
- It might not be the most efficient (to allow for stuff like focus targets I had to get it to check all combatlog events) and it might blow up if something weird happens (I don't think it will... but hey, what do I know?)
- It's not very pretty. Change the icons & move them around to suit your own UI - that's pretty straightforward stuff.

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Thnx, i'll see if i can notice anything to improve. I was honestly just too lazy to actually do the LUA stuff.

[Emrus]

The curious part about (b) is that I had the same concern with Seraphim during beta. But playing with Seraphim doesn't feel at all maintenance-y. It's actually a lot of fun. I think that's partly because it doesn't cost a GCD (and the opportunity cost is SotR - also off-GCD), and partly because it's such a large effect that you can really feel the difference between on/off phases. The latter is very important, because it means you look forward to pressing that button and going into holy beast mode.

Yeah, this is totally my gripe with it. It's the same issue I had with Inquisition in that while it's obviously a good thing you need to keep up, the effect isn't really discernable because you spend very little time out of it. It's just up, then you refresh it, and it doesn't feel like you just did a thing.

With Seraphim, you hit that button and you get faster attacks, more crits, more multistrikes, higher numbers overall, before going back to normal. You *feel* the effect of it every time you press it. When you're maintaining a buff that is (supposed to be) up 100% of the time it's hard to really feel like it's doing anything at all, even if it's adding 30% extra damage or 20% haste, because that buffed state becomes your new "normal".

Both of you bring up really strong points as to why EmpS feels less fun - or rewarding. One additional thing I feel is that with seraphim you become "hulk" when you press the button. For EmpS you become "hulk" not when you press the button but when you use judgment at some point in time after you press your "hulk" button.

If they really wanted to fix that final part. Then they could just tie the buff to activating the seal not judging it. But, it still wouldn't fix the other issues you brought up.


To bring up another subject which I don't feel have really been discussed:

Liadrin's Righteousness now increases haste by 20% (up from 15%).

Buffing EmpS to 20% haste runs us into some serious gearing issues. Considering that we always have the 5% haste in raids, it is very easy to hit the 50% haste soft cap. We literally only need to get 19% haste, 1714 haste rating with Sacred Duty, or 1319 rating without. That is barely any rating, a target most will reach around HC highmaul gear.

Now, the sky isn't falling on EmpS just yet. We still have to option of removing our haste enchants/gems. But, very soon we will have to actively avoid haste gear to prevent going over the cap. This brings back stark memories of the days of hit and expertise. And without reforge to sort out our stats, this cap will soon be very annoying to deal with. Especially considering our other tier 100 talents don't have those limitations, or at least not to the same degree (looking at you seraphim)

I think the best solution would be to reevaluate the buff. I have seen suggestions of making it 10% haste 10% AP or switching truth and righteousness buff. However, AP suffers the problem of being a very strong dps stat while a mediocre defensive stat. And in the case of the split ap+haste buff, there it would be weird for Retribution to have two AP buffs. On the other hand a 10% haste, 10% x, where x is either crit, mastery, multistrike or versatility could all be acceptable options for both Retribution and Prot from a design standpoint.

[Deleted]

On an interesting note, 3-Seal sims of EmpS at current values puts it at a lower TMI than Sera for me atm. I'm beginning to strongly suspect EmpS will at least be worth considering in Foundry with the recent buffs, even if it'll lead to some weird-ass gearing.

[celinamuna]

some weird-ass gearing.

You mean same gearing we had before 2 weeks ago ? /o/

[Deleted]

You mean same gearing we had before 2 weeks ago ? /o/

I mean shit like "oh, I got an upgrade, time to re-enchant my cloak with crit "

[OrcinusDrake]

Would certainly be happy if all 3 talents became the strongest option for different fights. If there's a fight like the bird boss in skyreach, seraphim is a total pain, so I could see some EmpS action for fights where you need flexibility with your sotr/divine protection.