[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I mean shit like "oh, I got an upgrade, time to re-enchant my cloak with crit "

A rather crude version of reforging!

[celinamuna]

I mean shit like "oh, I got an upgrade, time to re-enchant my cloak with crit "

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...0.0.567:118303

actually.... we won't have that much haste

[Deleted]

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...0.0.567:118303

actually.... we won't have that much haste

I disagree with that bis list... a lot. Legs should be haste/versatility off-set, chest should be set. Bracers should be mastery/vers. You're also forgetting 275 haste from enchants, and we are most likely going to have a couple of gems (I have 5 slots right now, expecting about the same in bis BRF gear). That's almost 700 more haste discounting sockets, which equals about 900 after SD, 10% actual haste. The profile has 802 haste, which will be around 1500 without gems with the proper gear, and thus roughly 2000 after SD, or 22.2%.

[celinamuna]

I disagree with that bis list... a lot. Legs should be haste/versatility off-set, chest should be set. Bracers should be mastery/vers. You're also forgetting 275 haste from enchants, and we are most likely going to have a couple of gems (I have 5 slots right now, expecting about the same in bis BRF gear). That's almost 700 more haste discounting sockets, which equals about 900 after SD, 10% actual haste. The profile has 802 haste, which will be around 1500 without gems with the proper gear, and thus roughly 2000 after SD, or 22.2%.

I disagree with you disagreeing. :
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items....0.0.0.0.0.567

344 haste, 336 vers vs 388 crit, 266 ms, 19 mast.
Personally, esp with our 2p bonus i can see crit gaining a bit of value and seeing how the set has very low baseline MS, i'd take it over vers (plus mast is still not bad)

[Vergilius]

I just honestly to god don't understand why they made this talent to begin with. Like there is no possible way to balance it compared to the other two talents; it's either going to be vastly overpowered cause they balance it for the ~50%, or vastly underpowered because they balance it for the ~1%. Right now it seems they're doing the 50% business, and to be I just can't understand why. Like I remember when we had 30 second seals that expired on judgements back in vanilla/TBC. Guess what, everyone fucking HATED IT. It was one of the most complained about things in the entire game, so why are they making us go through this again?

I mean they got asked this question at Blizzcon and gave some bullshit PR answer about how it's a choice left to the player, but they know damn well that if this ends up simming better than Seraphim everyone worth their salt is switching as soon as 6.1 hits. Wasn't this exactly the reason why they removed Inquisition?

[Deleted]

I disagree with you disagreeing. :
http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items....0.0.0.0.0.567

344 haste, 336 vers vs 388 crit, 266 ms, 19 mast.
Personally, esp with our 2p bonus i can see crit gaining a bit of value and seeing how the set has very low baseline MS, i'd take it over vers (plus mast is still not bad)

I disagree with you disagreeing to my disagreement. But I'll just chalk it down to different preferences. Haste will still be strong for increased GC procs, and with decent amounts of crit (head, shoulders, shield, boots) it should have a fair enough uptime. I managed about 80-90% while tanking 1 mob on the PTR. That's with 2.2k haste and 800ish crit. I'm just not a fan of multistrike, at all--I much prefer the guaranteed increase in survivability from versatility than the RNG of multistrike. Anyways, I see no reason to replace the chest of all pieces; another setup is replace set gloves with crit/mastery or haste/mastery, thus losing multi in favor of mastery. But still I would use mastery/vers bracers over the multi ones, especially as all other plate wearers are going for the multi ones, thus giving us free reign over the vers bracers.

I just don't see the value of crit being as high as mastery if you have high haste, as both of them increase your HP generation, and in that case I prefer the reliable HP from haste.

[Theck]

On an interesting note, 3-Seal sims of EmpS at current values puts it at a lower TMI than Sera for me atm. I'm beginning to strongly suspect EmpS will at least be worth considering in Foundry with the recent buffs, even if it'll lead to some weird-ass gearing.

Could you share these? The sims I ran (which I think I posted earlier in the thread) showed 3-seal as flat-out inferior to 2-seal.

[Deleted]

Could you share these? The sims I ran (which I think I posted earlier in the thread) showed 3-seal as flat-out inferior to 2-seal.

I honestly have no clue how to export a sim other than the most basic of data - at any rate, all three buffs are showing up in the buffs tab with roughly 90% uptime; I don't know if the TMI would be any lower with just 2 seals twisted if I simmed that, which I don't seem to have.

[Emrus]

http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items...0.0.567:118303

actually.... we won't have that much haste

That is a very temporary stopgap measure if any. With EmpS we are balancing on the haste cap as it is in Highmaul gear. We might not have that problem in BRF because they have decided not to itemize our gear with haste, but that has to be the most temporary solution there exists. This will be an issue in T18, and a massive issue in T19. Seraphim wont have this problem to nearly the same degree since it's 10.8% additive, not 20% multiplicative (equivalent to 25% additive at haste cap).

As a comparison in MoP we reached the a full 50% haste cap in the final tier almost unassisted. In Warlords with EmpS, raid haste and Sacred duty we only have to reach the equivalent of 14.7% haste from gear or 29% of the rating needed in MoP.

Tertiary Stats for Avoidance, Speed, and Leach now provide about four times as much benefit per stat point.

On a different note. How are people feeling about the buff on Tertiaries? Is it enough to make them compete with warforged and gem sockets? Leach innately has a very low conversion due to it's universal usefulness so it still might be awfully strong. However, avoidance could get very strong on an AoE based fight.

[Theck]

I honestly have no clue how to export a sim other than the most basic of data - at any rate, all three buffs are showing up in the buffs tab with roughly 90% uptime; I don't know if the TMI would be any lower with just 2 seals twisted if I simmed that, which I don't seem to have.

If you're doing it through the GUI, just hit the save button in the bottom corner. If you're using CLI, just add "html=filename.html".

Here are the sims I ran that suggested ES wasn't worth it at current values. This obviously doesn't include the 6.1 buff.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...x#post31768372

[celinamuna]

I disagree with you disagreeing to my disagreement. But I'll just chalk it down to different preferences. Haste will still be strong for increased GC procs, and with decent amounts of crit (head, shoulders, shield, boots) it should have a fair enough uptime. I managed about 80-90% while tanking 1 mob on the PTR. That's with 2.2k haste and 800ish crit. I'm just not a fan of multistrike, at all--I much prefer the guaranteed increase in survivability from versatility than the RNG of multistrike. Anyways, I see no reason to replace the chest of all pieces; another setup is replace set gloves with crit/mastery or haste/mastery, thus losing multi in favor of mastery. But still I would use mastery/vers bracers over the multi ones, especially as all other plate wearers are going for the multi ones, thus giving us free reign over the vers bracers.

I just don't see the value of crit being as high as mastery if you have high haste, as both of them increase your HP generation, and in that case I prefer the reliable HP from haste.

Tbh i'm thinking of it more from a dps pov, in which (esp at such low values) ms is one of our strongest stats (at least in every single sim i ran)

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I honestly have no clue how to export a sim other than the most basic of data - at any rate, all three buffs are showing up in the buffs tab with roughly 90% uptime; I don't know if the TMI would be any lower with just 2 seals twisted if I simmed that, which I don't seem to have.

If you "save" it, it will create an html file. You can put this on an online storage thing like dropbox and create a public link to it. Other people can then view the report through their web browser.

[Deleted]

Eh, never mind, I just realized the TMI error margins are so large that there's no possible reasonable conclusion to make from the data. I'd have to run sims with a shit-ton more iterations to get any sort of decent data.

[Jackielope]

On a different note. How are people feeling about the buff on Tertiaries? Is it enough to make them compete with warforged and gem sockets? Leach innately has a very low conversion due to it's universal usefulness so it still might be awfully strong. However, avoidance could get very strong on an AoE based fight.

I'm thinking it's about time they made the tertiaries stronger, but it's entirely possible they still won't be worthwhile compared to WF or sockets. The good news is SimC does account for them so if they are indeed just a straight up 4x buff then it should be extremely simple to change the code and then simulating. Alternately, simming them right now and just multiplying their values by 4 ought to work.

[celinamuna]

I'm thinking it's about time they made the tertiaries stronger, but it's entirely possible they still won't be worthwhile compared to WF or sockets. The good news is SimC does account for them so if they are indeed just a straight up 4x buff then it should be extremely simple to change the code and then simulating. Alternately, simming them right now and just multiplying their values by 4 ought to work.

Didn't theck already explain why they're not really simming correctly ? (At least in relationship to real work value)

[OrcinusDrake]

Speed, leech, avoidance, unbreaking. Of those wouldn't only leech work? Because the default sim wouldn't have movement (speed) nor account for aoe affects (avoidance) (or alternatively overrepresent it) and unbreaking (or whatever it's called) has no combat effect.

[celinamuna]

Speed, leech, avoidance, unbreaking. Of those wouldn't only leech work? Because the default sim wouldn't have movement (speed) nor account for aoe affects (avoidance) (or alternatively overrepresent it) and unbreaking (or whatever it's called) has no combat effect.

Yes, i believe the issues was that some of the tank attacks in SimS, were coded in to be reduced by avoidance, so it will look stronger than it should, and leech does't really account for overheal, so also prob stronger than it should.

[woodknight]

To maximize DPS, how to adjust the priority of consecration according to the number of enemies?
Like when there are 3+ enemies, does it become worthy to maintain 100% uptime of consecration? What is the threshold?

[steenkie]

If they took Seals off the global cooldown while talented into ES, would that be enough to sway it to good use?

[Emrus]

If they took Seals off the global cooldown while talented into ES, would that be enough to sway it to good use?

No, the following macro will entirely automate the talent at no cost at all if they were off global cooldown. In that case, there would be no difference between that talent and a passive talent. Furthermore, those not macro'ing the ability run the risk at preforming less then optimal which a macro can give for free. All of these are strict no-nos in blizzards design policy. Finally, EmpS in its current state have been balanced with the global cooldown cost in mind. Removing said cost would be a massive buff.

/castsequence judgment, seal of righteousness, judgment, seal of insight