[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[MFDOOM]

Has anyone else been healing exorbitantly high? Usually, whenever I tank bosses, I vary from 15k-30k in HPS.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/combat...ort/49#v=1,d=1

For example, on Operator Thogar Heroic, I pulled 27k HPS, and my GM as a Prot Pally pulled significantly less.

Hold your tongue if you think I'm sacrificing mitigation for HPS, I had a better mitigation ranking than my GM, and took less damage. http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/combat...ort/49#v=0,d=2

Is this just me being awesome, or is my GM doing something wrong here?

[Theck]

Edit: stupid me, didn't add healers to the profile, so all health triggers can't work because health is always in the minus

I usually add a healing raid event to help correct for such things:

raid_events+=/heal,cooldown=10,to_pct=90

That said, I think using an incoming_damage conditional is better than a health.pct conditional here. We're trying to model stochastic damage patterns, so to really get optimal TMI gain you want to use that massive heal to offset a period of large incoming_damage, regardless of what your actual health percent is at the time of the spike. A health.pct conditional would make more sense if we were actually counting deaths.

One thought for improvement is to do something like incoming_damage_4500ms>health.max*0.8 and fool around with the window and health threshold until you get better results. Remember that TMI is calculated over a 6-second window by default, so you're trying to optimize around that window.

Firing off a heal based on taking ~30% of your health in damage in a single 1.5-second period will probably tend towards using WoG too frequently (and thus at lower Bastion stacks), and in cases where it wasn't needed (ex: unmitigated hit, dodge, parry, parry). My guess is that a longer window and higher threshold will reserve it for use in the cases where it really matters, like a string of 3-4 hits in a row.

[Crackalackin]

Has anyone else been healing exorbitantly high? Usually, whenever I tank bosses, I vary from 15k-30k in HPS.

http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/combat...ort/49#v=1,d=1

For example, on Operator Thogar Heroic, I pulled 27k HPS, and my GM as a Prot Pally pulled significantly less.

Hold your tongue if you think I'm sacrificing mitigation for HPS, I had a better mitigation ranking than my GM, and took less damage. http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/combat...ort/49#v=0,d=2

Is this just me being awesome, or is my GM doing something wrong here?

Has to do with Holy Shield and spell damage, it ends up being counted as an absorb which made up 26% of your "healing" on the Thogar fight.

Also your GM isn't using SoI or SS, the first contributes to his lower healing, the second is an unforgivable mistake.

[Sleivert]

Hey guys! I have been trying to find out some stuff about trinkets, but not finding alot. Atm i got 676 Pol's, 665 battering, 670 evergaze and 680 table of turnbuckle.
What would be like the standard two to use? and any trinket combination that is good for some bosses? i mainly play with seraphim so you guys know, any help appreciated!

[Kortiah]

Hey guys! I have been trying to find out some stuff about trinkets, but not finding alot. Atm i got 676 Pol's, 665 battering, 670 evergaze and 680 table of turnbuckle.
What would be like the standard two to use? and any trinket combination that is good for some bosses? i mainly play with seraphim so you guys know, any help appreciated!

Sorry to say but you probably didn't look very far... That's a recurring question, every 3 or 4 pages there's someone asking that... And Theck did very good simulation on both the DPS and TMI value of each trinket you can get atm in raids.

Seeing yours I'd say Pol's+Evergaze. Battering is pretty shit except if you need loads of HP somehow, and Pol's+TTT means 2 on-use trinket = no-no.

[Sleivert]

Sorry to say but you probably didn't look very far... That's a recurring question, every 3 or 4 pages there's someone asking that... And Theck did very good simulation on both the DPS and TMI value of each trinket you can get atm in raids.

Seeing yours I'd say Pol's+Evergaze. Battering is pretty shit except if you need loads of HP somehow, and Pol's+TTT means 2 on-use trinket = no-no.

Thanks man, sorry, did not check well enough i guess, forgot about search function etc. will try to find thouse sims by Theck

[Crackalackin]

Thanks man, sorry, did not check well enough i guess, forgot about search function etc. will try to find thouse sims by Theck

They were 15 pages back, if you haven't found them yet here is a link Page 169. There is another sim solely for single trinket dps at the bottom of that page.

[Kanadei]

I find we are over explaining Gruul. We approached in the Paragon method as well as a few other guilds who did it similarily, no point using 2 tanks, use 3 and have them min max dps (Harsh Words/Breath of Sindragosa etc)

I know this is probably just an oversight, but in the interests of not confusing people coming into the thread, let's remember that Harsh Words is no longer a thing for us.

I miss it dearly, don't get me wrong, but I don't think we are getting it back any time soon.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry to say but you probably didn't look very far... That's a recurring question, every 3 or 4 pages there's someone asking that... And Theck did very good simulation on both the DPS and TMI value of each trinket you can get atm in raids.

Seeing yours I'd say Pol's+Evergaze. Battering is pretty shit except if you need loads of HP somehow, and Pol's+TTT means 2 on-use trinket = no-no.

TTT and EAE work very well together though, as you can guarantee EAE will proc on pull, pair it with armor pot and TTT and HA/Sera and absolutely destroy threat/dps for the next 30 seconds.

I mean, I don't usually use them together for progression as I find my health pool is very low, but for farm or on bosses where there isn't as much tank damage, they are a pretty god-tier combo.

[Deleted]

Speaking of bugs, I've just run into this bizarre situation on Mar'gok where I have Holy Shield talented but don't seem to be benefiting from it. My percentage of blocked attacks is roughly as you would expect without Holy Shield, and Holy Shield simply isn't triggering.

Can confirm this aswell, doesnt do any damage or block any more then usual

[Taven]

Can confirm this aswell, doesnt do any damage or block any more then usual

On this specific fight or in general?

[Kanadei]

On this specific fight or in general?

I'd go out on a limb and assume that if Holy Shield was broken completely, Blizzard would have noticed by now.

Seems much more likely that it's a Mar'gok issue.

[Deleted]

I'd go out on a limb and assume that if Holy Shield was broken completely, Blizzard would have noticed by now.

Seems much more likely that it's a Mar'gok issue.

It seems to fix itself if you un-talent it, then re-talent it. Fuck me if I know what's causing it in the first place, though.

Edit: Anybody notice Reaver damage seeming fucky lately, btw? Got smacked casually for almost 300k through Hand of Sac with only one stack of his debuff last reset, which seems just a tad bit high (like 2x what it should be, honestly) from what I remember.

[Vergilius]

Did anyone ever do a trinket comparison for 680 Knight's Badge? I know Theck said ~10 pages back he had only done the 670 one, I'd love to see how it matches up to the mythic trinkets.

[cujoe]

One thought for improvement is to do something like incoming_damage_4500ms>health.max*0.8 and fool around with the window and health threshold until you get better results. Remember that TMI is calculated over a 6-second window by default, so you're trying to optimize around that window.

Firing off a heal based on taking ~30% of your health in damage in a single 1.5-second period will probably tend towards using WoG too frequently (and thus at lower Bastion stacks), and in cases where it wasn't needed (ex: unmitigated hit, dodge, parry, parry). My guess is that a longer window and higher threshold will reserve it for use in the cases where it really matters, like a string of 3-4 hits in a row.

Thank you for your input Theck.

I have added this line to the top of the APL:

actions+=/word_of_glory,if=(holy_power>=3)&(incoming_damage_4.5s>=health.max*X)

and have done sims for different speccs as a function of X. I used the T17M prot standard profile of Simcraft version 603-27 with a T17M TMI standard boss. Here are the results:



As one can see, a moderate use of WoG after a period of large damage intake (optimally after a damage spike of 70% of max health in a 4.5s window) tends to improve the TMI in all tested cases. The largest improvement is seen in case of Sera_DP where the TMI changes by 7% for X=0.7 from 124.5k (no WoG) to 115.7k, which comes with a slight DPS tradeoff of about 4%. Using WoG with X=0.6 can improve TMI further in some cases, but for values of X > 0.7 the DPS decreases more rapidly.

tl;dr: Usage of WoG after a damage intake of 70% max health / 4.5s improves TMI for all (tested) speccs.

Edit: I might add that the optimal X values only make sense for the chosen combination of player profile and TMI boss. In many cases, spikes above 0.9*health.max don't happen often enough in the sims and result in basically zero WoG usage and hence there is no effect on the TMI. The sweent spot for X for each player can only be found by simming your actual gear vs. a TMI boss of the difficulty you are usually fighting against.

[kirielle]

Here's a condensed version of my thoughts on Emp Seals while Seal-Twisting.


-- When to Seal twist --

If I were to play with Empowered Seals on any boss in the game (Which I really doubt I will any time soon unless I'm proving a point) then I would start the fight in SoR. As a Blood Elf I would open with AT 7 seconds before pull and SS at about 3 seconds then go into:

J - CS - LH/ES - SoI - CS - J -

This will then grant both buffs within your first 6 globals. From this point on, when I change Seal depends on GC procs, so I can't detail it exactly. But I would maintain the standard rotation of CS - J - X - CS - X - J - CS - X - X.

I would then use two different priorities depending on which seal I am in and the duration on Liadrin's Righteousness (20% haste - referred to as LR) and Uther's Insight (2% heal every 3 seconds - referred to as UI).

In SoR:
SoI if the duration of UI is less than 6s < AS (Grand Crusader Proc) < SS (Duration less than 9 seconds) < SoI < LH/ES* < AS < HW/HoW/Consec

In SoI:
AS (Grand Crusader Proc) < SS (Duration less than 9 seconds) < SoR < LH/ES* < AS < HW/HoW/Consec

(*Holy Prism is omitted for reasons detailed below)

This ensures 100% uptime on UI and will then prioritises generating Holy Power over refreshing LR.

How much of a difference would it make if you prioritized SoI, always swapping back to it on your first open filler? Seems to me that the ideal situation would be maximizing your SoI uptime while always maintaining the haste buff, but given that you should only swap as a filler I'm not sure what sort of uptime that would lead to.

[Deleted]

I think the main problem at the moment is ShotR being so damn weak. It reduces the damage taken by ~30%. For a 400k meleehit this will result in a 280k hit. ShotR mitigated 120k. Whats the average healing of a 1(2,3)BoG-powered WoG at resolve level of a boss hitting you for 400k with each hit? I guess not much less, taking crit and MS also into consideration. This fact would again advocate the T16 4p to be baseline for protadins.

[cujoe]

I think the main problem at the moment is ShotR being so damn weak. It reduces the damage taken by ~30%. For a 400k meleehit this will result in a 280k hit. ShotR mitigated 120k. Whats the average healing of a 1(2,3)BoG-powered WoG at resolve level of a boss hitting you for 400k with each hit? I guess not much less, taking crit and MS also into consideration. This fact would again advocate the T16 4p to be baseline for protadins.

The average healing of a 3 HoPo WoG after suffering damage of 70% max health in 4.5s (see simulations above) is about 237k with around 20% crit.

[Vergilius]

Did anyone ever do a trinket comparison for 680 Knight's Badge? I know Theck said ~10 pages back he had only done the 670 one, I'd love to see how it matches up to the mythic trinkets.

bump, I wanna know if I should look forward to dropping 60k on one or not

[Kortiah]

bump, I wanna know if I should look forward to dropping 60k on one or not

Iirc he said that the 680 was as good as others top trinket in their mythic version (695). So definitely a good option if you don't have the good 680/685 trinkets.

[Theck]

Regarding the Knight's Badge discussion:
Looks like wowhead has the proper bonusid for it Knight's Badge now, so I was able to sim it. Here are the stacked single-trinket ranks with that included:

DP_ES
DP_HS
HA_Sera

From the HA_Sera report:



The other plots are pretty similar. KB_680 isn't a huge upgrade over the 670 version. But both are fairly competitive with the other mythic trinkets.