[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Deleted]

While tanking heroic Velhari I was getting a max of 60k absorbs when at resolve cap with potion + trinket active, 20k was the average.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...76&view=events

Not quite as strong as I was hoping and definitely not as strong as out T17 2P.

Edit: 60k seems high even with potion and trinket stacked, anyone know if the 2P can crit?

[Deleted]

What difficulty are you tanking when you get these numbers? Solaire said he was getting sick numbers against a Mythic dummy, dunno if it might be a lack of Resolve thing?

I never said I was getting sick numbers on each individual shield, but with 4pc the amount absorbed over the course of a fight was roughly equivalent to an extra SoI. That's very, very far from negligible.

[celinamuna]

Looking at some of the mythic logs : https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ling&source=16

It seems to be decent on AoE, but still sort of underwhelming.

[hhm007]

What difficulty are you tanking when you get these numbers? Solaire said he was getting sick numbers against a Mythic dummy, dunno if it might be a lack of Resolve thing?

I tested on both Heroic Assault for muti-target fights, and Heroic Council for single target fight (tanking Dia).

Some numbers from Heroic Council:
Sacred Shield - Min 34, Max 71,877, Average 15,027.4
Avenger's Reprieve - Min 534, Max 27,986, Average 11,102
Damage Taken (Dia melee) - Min 9839, Max 112,338, Average 38,173.5

Maybe my understanding of these numbers are wrong, but it looks like the T18 bubble can barely even block a melee attack.

[Deleted]

I tested on both Heroic Assault for muti-target fights, and Heroic Council for single target fight (tanking Dia).

Some numbers from Heroic Council:
Sacred Shield - Min 34, Max 71,877, Average 15,027.4
Avenger's Reprieve - Min 534, Max 27,986, Average 11,102
Damage Taken (Dia melee) - Min 9839, Max 112,338, Average 38,173.5

Maybe my understanding of these numbers are wrong, but it looks like the T18 bubble can barely even block a melee attack.

So long as it's shaving a significant amount off those melee attacks, it's still an excellent bonus. The value of absorbs cannot be understated from a damage-smoothing perspective.

To put it in perspective, with 4-set and WUE on PTR I was getting in the realm of 45-50k HPS on dummies that didn't trigger HS much - 2-set was providing roughly 25% of that. Currently, on Mythic Archimonde, 30k HPS is realistic in a situation with optimal HS conditions without WUE and 4-set. I can't say anything for certain until I'm done reworking the sim module, but it looks strong from a health-smoothing perspective based on anecdotal numbers alone - I'd expect us to be capable of 50-60k HPS on Mythic Archimonde with all the good stuff equipped.

[Reghame]

So long as it's shaving a significant amount off those melee attacks, it's still an excellent bonus. The value of absorbs cannot be understated from a damage-smoothing perspective.

To put it in perspective, with 4-set and WUE on PTR I was getting in the realm of 45-50k HPS on dummies that didn't trigger HS much - 2-set was providing roughly 25% of that. Currently, on Mythic Archimonde, 30k HPS is realistic in a situation with optimal HS conditions without WUE and 4-set. I can't say anything for certain until I'm done reworking the sim module, but it looks strong from a health-smoothing perspective based on anecdotal numbers alone - I'd expect us to be capable of 50-60k HPS on Mythic Archimonde with all the good stuff equipped.

how would you be gaining so much absorbs and casts without negating the use of CS and judge? a lot of you that have these high absorb counts from logs seem to have nearly 3 times or so more than i did but also took WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more damage. are you not using CS and judge in favor of avernger shield reset? that does not seem very practical at all honestly.

[Deleted]

how would you be gaining so much absorbs and casts without negating the use of CS and judge? a lot of you that have these high absorb counts from logs seem to have nearly 3 times or so more than i did but also took WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more damage. are you not using CS and judge in favor of avernger shield reset? that does not seem very practical at all honestly.

By being at max Resolve and having a lot of haste. It's not really rocket science. You don't have to ignore anything other than maybe HW and Consec once in a while.

Edit: Looks like they finally fixed the class trinket. As predicted, it does an absurd amount of DPS - in fact even more than I thought possible - and will likely be nerfed into the fucking ground shortly. It's a 10-15k DPS increase at the very least. Nobody else on Conq apart from maybe Lock has a stand-out trinket, though, soooo...

I don't exactly want to sit here recommending it because honestly I think it's going to get nerfed into the Stone Age, but on the other hand right now on perhaps every fight bar Velhari the trinket is fucking ridiculous and if you can get one, take it, don't think twice, and enjoy it while it lasts.

[Sepelio]

When you say fixed Praise what are you referring too?

[Deleted]

When you say fixed Praise what are you referring too?

On PTR it didn't trigger events in the combat log (so you literally couldn't see what it was doing, whether it could crit/MS, etc) and wouldn't proc if it came off ICD when you were below its activation threshold - all things that made the trinket unreliable and something we deliberately avoided on live because none of us that killed HC Archi last week wanted to take a trinket we didn't know whether would even WORK on live ahead of other specs with well-tested and strong class trinkets.

Now that it's been fixed, it's fucking overpowered - and quite frankly I think a lot of us already knew it'd be an insanely strong DPS trinket, especially in multi-target scenarios, but quite frankly the current iteration is idiotic. Just equipping the 705 version is a 10k single-target DPS increase. That's LUDICROUS.

[Sepelio]

The value of it from a survivability perspective compared to WuE and ACP still seems rather low though, I don't think you could viably run it on most mythic prog.

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Unless it has been changed to scale with resolve anyway.

[Deleted]

The value of it from a survivability perspective compared to WuE and ACP still seems rather low though, I don't think you could viably run it on most mythic prog.

I beg to differ. The few logs I've now seen of it has it doing a completely absurd amount of healing.

Let me put it this way - when a trinket does so much healing on its own that it allows you to get away with HA/Sera on HC Archimonde (which it did for Treckie earlier tonight) while taking barely any external healing, that trinket is fucking broken.

[Sepelio]

I wouldn't really call that completely absurd, it averages 130k healing per proc, which don't get me wrong isn't insignificant, but thats healing for 40% of a boss swing on mythic. The damage component is absolutely ridiculous I agree, I think the mythic trinket potentially will be very strong survival wise purely because the threshold is so high so it will proc even from a sotr mitigated swing.

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You also have the inherent problem of the majority of bosses won't have 100% tanking uptime purely down to how the encounters are designed, at which point every aspect of the trinket becomes redundant, which isnt the case with the other available trinkets.

[Deleted]

I wouldn't really call that completely absurd, it averages 130k healing per proc, which don't get me wrong isn't insignificant, but thats healing for 40% of a boss swing on mythic. The damage component is absolutely ridiculous I agree, I think the mythic trinket potentially will be very strong survival wise purely because the threshold is so high so it will proc even from a sotr mitigated swing.

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You also have the inherent problem of the majority of bosses won't have 100% tanking uptime purely down to how the encounters are designed, at which point every aspect of the trinket becomes redundant, which isnt the case with the other available trinkets.

There are very, very few bosses in HFC where you're either not tanking something the entire fight that'd proc the trinket or where you can't just have your co-tank only taunt the boss for mechanics. I genuinely think you're underestimating just how broken the trinket is on basically every fight this tier.

[Sepelio]

I genuinely think you're overestimating it, especially when you're forcing an offtank to basically be a debuff bitch, when we are far from the best tanks to be sitting there taking the raw physical hits, compared to say a guardian druid.

HFA - Full tank time
Iron Reaver - 50/50 give or take
Kormrok - Would have to have your other tank taunt for specific abilities but as stated before, other classes will be far more survivable to do this task than us.
Hellfire council - Full tank time
Kilrogg - Full tank time if you're on him, but again same problem of not being the ideal class
Gorefiend - Full tank time if you wish to bar the intermission phase, and again same problem.
Iskar - Unsure if this boss has a taunt DR, but same baseline problem of being the non optimal class to tank for prolonged time.
Socrethar - Would actually rate it fairly well on this encounter
Tyrant - WuE broken as all fuck on this, would proc often with the max hp reduction persisting into p3 on mythic, but on a fight thats designed on mythic to be one shot if you take any unmitigated swings come p3, effective health far outweighs a heal proc.
Fel lord - I think its a pretty no brainer here that you wouldn't run it on a purely physical fight, when comapred to an ACP/WuE anyway.
Xhul'horac - One of the few fights i think its great on purely because it works so well in relation to there potentially dangerus abilities
Mannoroth - Same problem as the other encounters of not being the optimal tank for prolonged tanking.
Archimonde - Again same problem.

i think its biggest value is the damage it gives if you're actually tanking is far far too much, especially if theres any kind of cleave i.e gurtogg/blademaster on council, the thing just becomes a fucking joke. But still for 90% of encounters especially on prog for Mythic, i don't see it viably pulling its weight at all. Like looking at Treckies Archimonde log, he took 32m damage with his trinket healing for 2.13m. throughout ptr testing(Kilrogg is a fucking cunt and won't drop it) a scaled to 685 normal version of the trinket was mitigating/healing for 11-12% of damage intake on everything, that at face value for a scaled down normal version already outweighs the class trinket, not including the added mitigation you get from the haste sotr uptime. ACP 60% uptime on a 1400+ mastery proc is just hysterical aswell.

I think it serves well as a niche trinket, but its at best the solid 3rd place trinket.

[celinamuna]

To be fair treckie also got about 1/2 of the procs he could.

[Sepelio]

Which is a direct reflection of his damage intake, he would have had to take more for it to proc more, so don't really think that holds any value.

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http://i.imgur.com/Yz9oijF.png

The healing on Ascensions kilrogg mythic last night from there blood dk who has the trinket.

more than twice the "Healing" and not including mitigation from the haste.

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The trinket is another one of those ideal if procs off cd things, which it never will so shouldn't be thought of as such.

[celinamuna]

Which is a direct reflection of his damage intake, he would have had to take more for it to proc more, so don't really think that holds any value.

No.... it's a direct reflection of how often his healers heal him when he's over 60% (or w/e you need to trigger it)

[Sepelio]

So you're saying that he should be left below 60% consistently to ensure that its proc rate is increased? again from a progression standpoint that seems ludicrous.

[celinamuna]

So you're saying that he should be left below 60% consistently to ensure that its proc rate is increased? again from a progression standpoint that seems ludicrous.

If you're using it efficiently, yes.

[Sepelio]

Its the simcraft notion of X proccing under ideal situations will achieve X, whereas if you're not tanking the trinket is literally an empty slot, and optimising it requires being for lack of a better way of saying it, less than optimal, making yourself take more damage by prolonged uptime, when nearly every other class would do this aspect better, and then sitting below the threshold, once you have a mythic one and the threshold is 80% i think its alot better across the board, because even a sotr mitigated swing will proc it, but until then its just eh.

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Efficiently from what perspective, pure proc uptime? for the raid as a whole it would be entirely inefficient to do that, you'd require more healing than another class doing the same job, and in a riskier scenario.

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Unfortunately it is completely another one of those perfect scenario trinkets, which just like sims, are never remotely realistic to expect.