DPS for Butcher in Heroic mode?

[Marani]

I personally perform at 9x% in Ele and Enh in not bad gear (642 and 638) with the right stats, and my DPS will not go over 20k atm. It's just not mathematically possible in our current gear.

I just looked through our log once again, because I was curious what the average of our DPS was. Leaving out our tanks and healers and only looking at damage dealers, the average was like ~19460 and we had 12 secs left till enrage. (Though both of our melee camps died at about ~4:30-4:40)
I thought the 19.5k that was mentioned here was pretty high so I was quite suprised we were exactly at 19.5k! (I actually thought we were lower)

About Elemental... both of us did about 20k dps (usually just a little above 20k) at our butcher tries and I was at ilvl 636 and our other Ele at 642. (Though I actually sim higher dps-wise, because I got a whole bunch of sockets on my hc dungeon gear, so I guess you could say we were both roughly at 640.) Actually on our kill try we both dropped down to ~19.1k and 19.5k (There it is again! The magical number!) because we were standing in the melee camps and died at the end. But anyway, 20k is really not impossible.

If you have so many people whose gear is below 635 and who can't get the damage done, I'd really say: Grab some gear and try again next week. Normal is doable in that gear and you'll manage to get quite a few upgrades. Maybe to everyone on his own the one item he grabs, doesn't make a difference. But if you consider the whole raid and all the items dropped, that's actually a huge improvement!

[miffy23]

I just looked through our log once again, because I was curious what the average of our DPS was. Leaving out our tanks and healers and only looking at damage dealers, the average was like ~19460 and we had 12 secs left till enrage. (Though both of our melee camps died at about ~4:30-4:40)
I thought the 19.5k that was mentioned here was pretty high so I was quite suprised we were exactly at 19.5k! (I actually thought we were lower)

About Elemental... both of us did about 20k dps (usually just a little above 20k) at our butcher tries and I was at ilvl 636 and our other Ele at 642. (Though I actually sim higher dps-wise, because I got a whole bunch of sockets on my hc dungeon gear, so I guess you could say we were both roughly at 640.) Actually on our kill try we both dropped down to ~19.1k and 19.5k (There it is again! The magical number!) because we were standing in the melee camps and died at the end. But anyway, 20k is really not impossible.

If you have so many people whose gear is below 635 and who can't get the damage done, I'd really say: Grab some gear and try again next week. Normal is doable in that gear and you'll manage to get quite a few upgrades. Maybe to everyone on his own the one item he grabs, doesn't make a difference. But if you consider the whole raid and all the items dropped, that's actually a huge improvement!

I was soaking - and I didn't mean taht it's impossible for my ilvl, but for my char according to sims.

[kenkenski1]

Was close for us as well, however he had couple of deaths around 20%. Think he enraged at 2%.

[Slant]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pe=damage-done

[Inocybe]

Hmm still don't see any proof. NO LOG posted in this thread has shown anyone in 630-635 ilvl above 18k dps.
And, yes my guild cleared it. It's not about "Maxing your DPS" its about the max DPS not being enough.

I'm the monk :

I can't post full url, so just go on warcraftlogs / ranking / report / nvHkQafcxVXhwLY7#boss=1706

Even with the incoming nerf i will still be over 19-20K in 632ilvl.

[miffy23]

I'm the monk :

I can't post full url, so just go on warcraftlogs / ranking / report / nvHkQafcxVXhwLY7#boss=1706

Even with the incoming nerf i will still be over 19-20K in 632ilvl.

Monk is one of the only specs that should reliably pull that kind of DPS at that ilvl stage. They are top of the pack at 630 in all Sim results and this is reflected in logs.
The majority of specs will severely struggled to manage 19.5 in 630-635. The fight is not tuned for 630.

[Inocybe]

Monk is one of the only specs that should reliably pull that kind of DPS at that ilvl stage. They are top of the pack at 630 in all Sim results and this is reflected in logs.
The majority of specs will severely struggled to manage 19.5 in 630-635. The fight is not tuned for 630.

I agree.

But if you wanna talk about sim result, our ret / hunt / rogue / wl etc are way under what they are suppose to be. Like many players in this game, even with the best sim spe they will stay behind. My raid is the typical average kind of raid and players.

Anyway, i will never understand people who ask for others class nerf. It does nerf your whole raid, not only the class.

[miffy23]

I agree.

But if you wanna talk about sim result, our ret / hunt / rogue / wl etc are way under what they are suppose to be. Like many players in this game, even with the best sim spe they will stay behind. My raid is the typical average kind of raid and players.

Anyway, i will never understand people who ask for others class nerf. It does nerf your whole raid, not only the class.

Sims also assume optimal stat allocation on your gear. To assume realistic results with average stat luck, you should detract about 1k from the optimum result for 630 atm -> this is for the Simcraft ranking.

If you're comparing those players to the ranking, you're doing it wrong - sim their characters individually.

[Inocybe]

Sims also assume optimal stat allocation on your gear. To assume realistic results with average stat luck, you should detract about 1k from the optimum result for 630 atm -> this is for the Simcraft ranking.

If you're comparing those players to the ranking, you're doing it wrong - sim their characters individually.

I was talking about their individual sim Not the global one.

[miffy23]

I was talking about their individual sim Not the global one.

What's their % roughly? I start chiding my raiders when they perform under 85%ish or so depending on spec and fight, Butcher being a prime example of course.

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Sims also assume optimal stat allocation on your gear. To assume realistic results with average stat luck, you should detract about 1k from the optimum result for 630 atm -> this is for the Simcraft ranking.

Your simmed Dps is not your theoretical Max Dps. It's an average of thousands of fights. Sometimes you will have good RNG, sometimes you will have bad. If you are never beating your "Sim Dps", you are doing something wrong.

[miffy23]

Your simmed Dps is not your theoretical Max Dps. It's an average of thousands of fights. Sometimes you will have good RNG, sometimes you will have bad. If you are never beating your "Sim Dps", you are doing something wrong.

This almost never applies in reality however, because the averages that are assumed nowadays (since trinket procs have been normalized for a long time now) are pretty damn close to the maximum. The margins from theoretical max to average effective max on a Patchwerk fight over 9 minutes are very, very low indeed.

Factor in human error, minor lags, outside influence, etc...."beating" your sim under the same conditions is only possible under extremely lucky RNG.

Besides the fact that this has nothing to do with what I am talking about, which is the fact that no matter whether it's average or theoretical, sim assumes optimal stat setup for each spec in the rankings.. This was what I was talking about here, not your personal sim.

[Dracodraco]

This almost never applies in reality however, because the averages that are assumed nowadays (since trinket procs have been normalized for a long time now) are pretty damn close to the maximum. The margins from theoretical max to average effective max on a Patchwerk fight over 9 minutes are very, very low indeed.

Factor in human error, minor lags, outside influence, etc...."beating" your sim under the same conditions is only possible under extremely lucky RNG.

Besides the fact that this has nothing to do with what I am talking about, which is the fact that no matter whether it's average or theoretical, sim assumes optimal stat setup for each spec in the rankings.. This was what I was talking about here, not your personal sim.

That's not true, though. Lots of high end raiders consistently beat their sims. Just saying <.<. It is down to RNG in some cases (trinket procs), but the consistency with which some people does it, does show that the sim is not actually your "max potential", but rather a simulation of a person making mistakes.

[miffy23]

That's not true, though. Lots of high end raiders consistently beat their sims. Just saying <.<. It is down to RNG in some cases (trinket procs), but the consistency with which some people does it, does show that the sim is not actually your "max potential", but rather a simulation of a person making mistakes.

Yes, on fights shorter than 9 mins, much shorter, which already significantly skews the results.

[Dracodraco]

Yes, on fights shorter than 9 mins, much shorter, which already significantly skews the results.

...You know that anyone worth their salt plugs in their own kill-time numbers in simcraft, right? We have literally not had a single fight but Thok end around the 9 minute mark for a few years now (I don't remember one in ToT, atleast. Maybe tortos?). Running a thousand iterations on a 9 minute fight isn't anymore meaningful or precise than doing the same to a 5 minute fight (which is far more common).

[miffy23]

...You know that anyone worth their salt plugs in their own kill-time numbers in simcraft, right? We have literally not had a single fight but Thok end around the 9 minute mark for a few years now (I don't remember one in ToT, atleast. Maybe tortos?). Running a thousand iterations on a 9 minute fight isn't anymore meaningful or precise than doing the same to a 5 minute fight (which is far more common).

Not sure what your point is when we all agree that sims are an approximation and beating them involves quite a bit of RNG and flawless performance. Noone claimed it wasn't possible, by the way.

[Dracodraco]

Not sure what your point is when we all agree that sims are an approximation and beating them involves quite a bit of RNG and flawless performance. Noone claimed it wasn't possible, by the way.

I quote:

Factor in human error, minor lags, outside influence, etc...."beating" your sim under the same conditions is only possible under extremely lucky RNG.

Which, as I said, is not true. Lots of people play better than the standard the sims are at. People can play and consistently get top 95th percentile, which is usually way beyond the simulated potential. It doesn't involve RNG - it does involve flawless performance.

[miffy23]

I quote:



Which, as I said, is not true. Lots of people play better than the standard the sims are at. People can play and consistently get top 95th percentile, which is usually way beyond the simulated potential. It doesn't involve RNG - it does involve flawless performance.

It actually does involve quite a bit of RNG on top of the performance, but either way it's nitpicking. Neither of us is actually disagreeing with one another here. And reaching the 95th percentile would not magically elevate the average DPS of my raid, for example, no Butcher-killing times in the average gear we currently ahve. And so it is Normal-grinding time.

[Frederick]

It actually does involve quite a bit of RNG on top of the performance, but either way it's nitpicking. Neither of us is actually disagreeing with one another here. And reaching the 95th percentile would not magically elevate the average DPS of my raid, for example, no Butcher-killing times in the average gear we currently ahve. And so it is Normal-grinding time.

The bigger issue is that you're using 5 healers for 17 people - your DPS will need to be pulling pretty superhuman numbers to get away with that.