Some issues with Butcher

[Deleted]

Hello, I have some questions to those who have killed Butcher on heroic difficulty.

This evening my guild tried to take on Butcher HC, after having issues with both damage and healing we removed the dps which was doing less than 18k so that the boss would scale down. This left us with a 2-4-7 comp. It seems like we have too many healers, but the problem is that when we go with 4 healers they are all around 30k hps throughout the fight and healing is very intense.

The last try we managed to get to the enrage, which means our healing is enough. Our healers pulled out 36k (Paladin - focusing tanks), 33k (MW - focus raid), 32k (Druid - raid), 27k (Shaman - raid). But if we were to remove one healer and get one more dps, the healing required would simply be too much, our healers can't pull out 40k each throughout the entire fight.

I can think of 4 problems/solutions:

1. Our healers does not pull out as much as they should (is 40k normal?).

2. Our DPS should manage to kill boss with the ratio 7 dps to 13 total members.

3. We take unnecessary damage from somewhere. What I can think of is that we could possibly only take 3 stacks from the cleave, we went with 4 stacks. Is it possible to only take 3 cleaves then switch groups?

4. Keep grinding, we got the stats we just need to have that one perfect try.

Worth mentioning, our dps were all between 22.5 k and 18.5k, I can not give any logs because I lack the required software.

Thanks for reading and all help are apreciated!

[Kaiten]

It's possible to only take two cleaves then switch groups. This makes the healing considerably easier.

[Deleted]

Two cleaves? The debuff lasts for 15 seconds and he does it every 5 sec. It might work if something interrupts him from casting it at 15 seconds and the debuff barely runs out. So this means we can switch on 3 stacks without any risk of whiping? That would make the 4th healer redundant and we could get one more DPS.

[IxilaFA]

1. Healers doing 40k for that fight isn't unexpected. We went with 25 people using 5 healers and 2 of us were far above 40k (pally and druid). So you are overhealing it if all your healers arent putting out at least 35k, especially that shaman. Its important to remember that this isn't a long fight and its a 100% gear check on all levels. If your healers cannot consistently put out the required healing you will get slaughtered later in the instance.

2. Your ratio is too skewed because of overhealing. Sub out a healer and you will be fine on the dps check.

3. You can do 4 cleaves per group be for the first kickback and then from there you can do 3 per. That will ease the healing a bit.

Worst comes to worst if you can't get it down, go do Tectus and Brackenspore and get some more gear.

[Deleted]

Will try to get less cleaves aswell as bring one less healer, the monk and resto has a lot of overhealing, but isn't that something to expect? Targets which takes damage switches constantly throughout the fight so hots overheal. But I understand the issue and will try to work around it.

[Clunky]

Two cleaves? The debuff lasts for 15 seconds and he does it every 5 sec. It might work if something interrupts him from casting it at 15 seconds and the debuff barely runs out. So this means we can switch on 3 stacks without any risk of whiping? That would make the 4th healer redundant and we could get one more DPS.

The debuff lasts 15 seconds and cleave has a 5 second cooldown with a .5 second cast so heres how it plays out.

First cleave - Group A has 1 stack with 15s
Second cleave - Group A has 2 stacks with 15s
Someone leaves Group A and another joins Group B
Third cleave - Group A has 2 stacks with 9.5s, Group B has 1 stack with 15s
Fourth cleave - Group A has 2 stacks with 4s, Group B has 2 stacks with 15s
Someone joins Group A and another leaves Group B
Fifth cleave - With 1 second remaining Group As stacks drop and gets cleaved again for 1 stack with 15s, Group B has 2 stacks with 9.5s
Rinse and repeat

People don't consider the .5 second cast time, yes it's tight but that doesn't matter, it will always play out like this and it's not possible for a group to get reapplied to 3 stacks as long as you are moving in and out at the proper time.

However you could also do it up to 3 or 4 stacks if you want and let the debuff drop completely, there just isn't a need for it.

[Deleted]

I am quite conviced our main issue were that we took 4 stacks (instead of two) which made our healers work their arses to keep the raid alive. The level on HPS on the healers should be around 30-35k since it's only 13 players in the raid, with the example obove with 25 members, it is much easier to achieve higher HPS. As a MW monk it felt like a lot of my potential was lost becuase I only got to heal 10 targets at a time (sometimes down at 6, 4 stacking dps + tanks). So, less cleaves, less heals, more DPS. Thanks for the help guys, hopefully we can down him next time we raid. Cheers.

[Clunky]

I am quite conviced our main issue were that we took 4 stacks (instead of two) which made our healers work their arses to keep the raid alive. The level on HPS on the healers should be around 30-35k since it's only 13 players in the raid, with the example obove with 25 members, it is much easier to achieve higher HPS. As a MW monk it felt like a lot of my potential was lost becuase I only got to heal 10 targets at a time (sometimes down at 6, 4 stacking dps + tanks). So, less cleaves, less heals, more DPS. Thanks for the help guys, hopefully we can down him next time we raid. Cheers.

I should have posted our healing numbers in my previous post! We were attempting with 22 people (so still not the best comparison to your group, but still) with 5 healers. We had a resto druid at 38k, a Hpriest and another druid at 35k, then a holy pally and MW monk at 29k. Healing went alright but we wiped a few times to his berserk after his knockback and charge cleave. We should get him next time around with better cooldown use with those numbers.

[IxilaFA]

I should have posted our healing numbers in my previous post! We were attempting with 22 people (so still not the best comparison to your group, but still) with 5 healers. We had a resto druid at 38k, a Hpriest and another druid at 35k, then a holy pally and MW monk at 29k. Healing went alright but we wiped a few times to his berserk after his knockback and charge cleave. We should get him next time around with better cooldown use with those numbers.

Theres no point in doing 2 stacks. Its way too risky and healers can easily heal through 3 stacks. You dont gain anything by doing it that way, especially since you are guys are still 5 healing the fight. If the difference was being able to drop a healer and bring another DPS you might have a point but you guys arent even doing that.

Also to the OP I forgot to mention that during the 30% enrage you want to make sure you are cycling cooldowns. Smoke bombs, amp magic, anccestral guidance, vampiric embrace, etc. Every little bit helps.