6.2 Retribution Theorycraft & Discussion

[2hot4you]

I would be ecstatic for even just a glyph that makes CS cleave a nearby target...just fucking something already =/

[Kanael]

At what ms does latency affect our (or a dpser/raider) performance? Is there a big difference between 2 raiders whom one of which has like 40 ms and the other guy has 240? Is 400 ms playable?

[Deleted]

At what ms does latency affect our (or a dpser/raider) performance? Is there a big difference between 2 raiders whom one of which has like 40 ms and the other guy has 240? Is 400 ms playable?

It's playable but noticeable. I usually have about 20-25 ms live but 160-300ms on ptr where I can really tell the difference.

[Kanael]

It's playable but noticeable. I usually have about 20-25 ms live but 160-300ms on ptr where I can really tell the difference.

Crap I think I have to lie on my alt's application lol, they're asking for my ms (I have 250 ms over here)

[Bad-apple]

Crap I think I have to lie on my alt's application lol, they're asking for my ms (I have 250 ms over here)

I raid mythic with 250ms and have never encountered any difficulty. If you're used to that latency and are using custom lag tolerance then you shouldn't have a big issue.

[RagnorZ]

At what ms does latency affect our (or a dpser/raider) performance? Is there a big difference between 2 raiders whom one of which has like 40 ms and the other guy has 240? Is 400 ms playable?

The actual dps rotation it isn't as bad as it used to be with higher latency because of the queuing system.

The game has a custom lag tolerance option (interface > combat), default unchecked is 400ms, this lets you queue your next ability 400ms before it's actually off GCD so higher latency doesn't delay your attacks, the downside is that in that 400ms you might have got a 2p proc and have actually wanted to HoW instead of CS.. Over all it's a net gain (queuing system prevents your latency from creating extra gaps in your rotation on top of gcd time), you can set Custom Lag Tolerance to whatever ms you want in the settings too if you prefer lower ms.

The bigger problem with latency imo is that you don't move out of fire, bombs etc as fast. Blackfuse conveyor belt lasers were a classic case, on high latency you had to move through the laser before it had stopped on your screen.

Also hitting an interrupt at 75% cast intentionally like say on oregorger or imperator mage adds... where you generally want to interrupt late into the cast to allow time for the next interrupters cd to be off, you have to allow for your latency so you don't kick too late.

[Xs]

Once you get above 200ms its going to start effecting some of the 'fire' effects that you're having to deal with in Mythic, so you'll have to be an innately better player to overcome that, but if you're fine with that then I see no problem raiding with more than 200ms, just don't lie to the guild, if you need to then add an explanation and just try to get a trial so you can show yourself.

[Freakydiki]

I made this a few days ago and figured I'd copy it to another sheet and share it. Everything SHOULD be correct including the most recent tier stat changes (Mastery/Multi to Chest/Legs). Feel free to copy it to your personal google drive so you can mess with it more, just please don't completely destroy this copy. Of course I'll fix it if it does get messed up; i'd just prefer not to.

The way you make a copy of it if you aren't familiar with google sheets: (It has a Hidden sheet for the stat value math) File > "Make a copy..." > Name it whatever you want.

Obviously change the values in the blue highlighted cells to adjust stat weights.

The "Tier Value" cell is based off (DPS from the tier piece - DPS from the highest non-tier piece)

Have fun I guess.

Link to the Doc

If you guys notice anything incorrect please let me know either Via DM on MMO-C, the IRC, or even posting in this thread.

[Xs]

If you guys notice anything incorrect please let me know either Via DM on MMO-C, the IRC, or even posting in this thread.

Would be nice to add a Weap dmg, since we're talking ilvl differences thats going to be a huge part of the choice

Also just personal preference, I'd remove the extra line in each slot, while it separates them nicely, you're already using the cell borders for that, and makes the sheet just that little bit quicker to scroll if you're using it in a loot scenario, rather than trying to memorise it beforehand.

[Freakydiki]

Wep Dmg: I knew I forgot about something...

Formatting: Great idea, I had those spaces while I made it, just never thought about removing it.

Both updated.

[Bad-apple]

I made this a few days ago and figured I'd copy it to another sheet and share it. Everything SHOULD be correct including the most recent tier stat changes (Mastery/Multi to Chest/Legs). Feel free to copy it to your personal google drive so you can mess with it more, just please don't completely destroy this copy. Of course I'll fix it if it does get messed up; i'd just prefer not to.

Thanks for the list. So it looks like the 4 set we should be aiming for is head, chest, gloves and legs if I'm not mistaken?

Also you have the shoulder piece named "cuirass of the ceaseless vigil" by mistake by the looks of it.

[Reghame]

Thanks for the list. So it looks like the 4 set we should be aiming for is head, chest, gloves and legs if I'm not mistaken?

Also you have the shoulder piece named "cuirass of the ceaseless vigil" by mistake by the looks of it.

for overall BiS yes.

for progression absolutely not. never go for an offpiece directly when its off some of the last bosses you will be killing, same goes for weapons.

honestly, BiS lists are so obsolete now its not even funny. just go with what has more ilevel/ a socket. it does not even matter too much anymore if X piece has so and so stat over such and such for us.

[Xs]

Wep Dmg: I knew I forgot about something...

Formatting: Great idea, I had those spaces while I made it, just never thought about removing it.

Both updated.

Nice, even if it comes to the same result, now its a bit more scalable if you wanted to add things like full slot breakdowns inc WF/socket

[Deleted]

Dont mind not playing with final verdict, since it is a little trivial, but Emp seals is just very clunky

[Bad-apple]

for overall BiS yes.

for progression absolutely not. never go for an offpiece directly when its off some of the last bosses you will be killing, same goes for weapons.

honestly, BiS lists are so obsolete now its not even funny. just go with what has more ilevel/ a socket. it does not even matter too much anymore if X piece has so and so stat over such and such for us.

While I absolutely understand what you're getting at I'm not so sure about this. Yes, I'll always take the 4 set over 3 set and an off piece for progression, but using this tier as an example, I had full heroic gear with prot seraphim stats (crit/haste) when I first switched to Ret and after ditching most of those pieces for mastery pieces my DPS went up by a huge margin. Granted mastery IS getting devalued in 6.2 so it might not be as big a difference then.

[Deleted]

While I absolutely understand what you're getting at I'm not so sure about this. Yes, I'll always take the 4 set over 3 set and an off piece for progression, but using this tier as an example, I had full heroic gear with prot seraphim stats (crit/haste) when I first switched to Ret and after ditching most of those pieces for mastery pieces my DPS went up by a huge margin. Granted mastery IS getting devalued in 6.2 so it might not be as big a difference then.

That's because all the pieces had the same item level and mastery has been so far ahead of other secondary stats. In 6.2, mastery has been reigned in a bit and there are 4 different item levels of gear in the same difficulty.

[Reghame]

While I absolutely understand what you're getting at I'm not so sure about this. Yes, I'll always take the 4 set over 3 set and an off piece for progression, but using this tier as an example, I had full heroic gear with prot seraphim stats (crit/haste) when I first switched to Ret and after ditching most of those pieces for mastery pieces my DPS went up by a huge margin. Granted mastery IS getting devalued in 6.2 so it might not be as big a difference then.

the reason you saw a big change is due to two things.

#1 like thete said where mastery is getting reigned in.

#2 stat values per talent choice.

seraphim will value any stat a lot more but mastery since using a HoL ability during said seraphim is limited. but getting more haste for more abilities during it will make the talent gain value.

The reason why mastery does not matter as much is because of the same reason. our talent choices ( for single target that is) is going to be either empowered seals or seraphim, and both of these choices highly favor other stats when compared to FV's lust for mastery.

of course if you want an over all set, stack all the mastery you can find since mastery's value goes WAY up when it goes past the 1 target into cleave and AOE. but i would not sacrifice 10 or so ilevels just to do it.

[Kantalope]

Has anyone run sims to determine if it'll be worth breaking the BRF 4 piece for the HFC 2 piece, or if it's best to wait for the new 4 piece to equip and swap out of FV?

[Deleted]

Has anyone run sims to determine if it'll be worth breaking the BRF 4 piece for the HFC 2 piece, or if it's best to wait for the new 4 piece to equip and swap out of FV?

I don't know, but sometimes these decisions are made for you. For example, if you decide to not break up your T17 until you have 4 piece T18, you may find yourself bottom of priority on the new tier pieces because you're effectively saying that any bits given to you (unless it happens to coincide with your current off tier piece) are staying in your bags for the time being. I generally think it's best to just go for it and hope you get 4 pieces quickly, especially as you don't know how RNG will be in terms of how many conq tokens will drop.

[Solsacra]

I made this a few days ago and figured I'd copy it to another sheet and share it. Everything SHOULD be correct including the most recent tier stat changes (Mastery/Multi to Chest/Legs). Feel free to copy it to your personal google drive so you can mess with it more, just please don't completely destroy this copy. Of course I'll fix it if it does get messed up; i'd just prefer not to.

The way you make a copy of it if you aren't familiar with google sheets: (It has a Hidden sheet for the stat value math) File > "Make a copy..." > Name it whatever you want.

Obviously change the values in the blue highlighted cells to adjust stat weights.

The "Tier Value" cell is based off (DPS from the tier piece - DPS from the highest non-tier piece)

Have fun I guess.

Link to the Doc

If you guys notice anything incorrect please let me know either Via DM on MMO-C, the IRC, or even posting in this thread.

You may want to do a pass on the stat values; normalize them to approximate the relative value of gain for those stats. Haste seems to be a bit stronger than what it really is. The stat scaling results that i normalized and distributed in the OP are a better example, specifically the Empowered Seals calculations: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/...l?dl=0#player3

Other than that, looks good :P

- - - Updated - - -

apparently sol says that just sitting in truth with empowered seals will beat FV (or at least close numbers) last time i heard from him. course i dont think its true tho so ya.....

That was a tad hyperbolic. FV is better than sitting in truth with EmpS. However it isn't a massive gulf between them. Start twisting and Empowered Seals shoots ahead without much issue. Empowered Seals also isn't very difficult to use, especially with the new bonuses. Give it a shot.

I'm not quite sure why people keep calling this talent clunky. Empowered Seals flows incredibly well; the only thing you really need to ensure that is the case is a couple weakauras showing buff durations.