Disc without Attonement

[Jimjam38]

guys i play the disgusting broken spec for retards but sometimes i have to cast spells that don't do a lot of healing this is sooooo unfair

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also fucking this. mistweavers have to waste gcds on a terrible self heal or the garbage that is surging mists before they can even use their good throughput spells at all, and also have a ton of downtime channeling mana tea. other healers have to do similar things. nobody gives a shit that you sometimes have to build up archangel inbetween your one button spam

Oh look, a twelvie resto druid

[Placebro]

Atonement isn't just bad, if you can usefully use PWS, casting smite instead is a healing loss, period, even considering AA. In other words, it's better to hit AA with 4 stacks than cast smite for a 5th.

Casting smite is a healing loss even when you consider the 18s of 5% additional healing during archangel. Smite does 1.3*(92.448)=120.1824 SP healing. If you assume that smite is competing with a PWS cast, then the opportunity cost of casting it is 1.3*500-120.1824=529.8176 SP healing. Over 18s, this is 529.8176/0.05=10596.352 SP healing you'd have to do for the 5% extra healing to be worth it. That's about 16 PWS casts, which you just aren't going to accomplish without a major haste buff like PI or heroism up.

Penance is a little trickier. If you assume it also is competing with PWS, then penance also loses (offensive penance doesn't heal for significantly more than smite after all). The thing is, though, if you are GOING to be using penance, casting it offensively is better than casting it defensively: if you do the same math as above for penance, you only need to cast about 4-5 PWS during AA to recoup the difference in healing between defensive and offensive penance, so you'll more than make up for it.

[ceddya]

Let's assume 40% Mastery (20% healing), 15% Haste and 20% crit. In 18 seconds, let's say you cast 1 EAA/PoH, 1 Solace, 2 Penance, 9 PW:S and 1 free PoM. That will net you a total healing of:

EAA/PoH - [(221.7% * 5 * 1.2 * 1.3) * 0.7] + (221.7% * 5 * 1.2 * 1.4 * 1.3) = 3631%
Solace - 203% + (203% * 0.2 * 1.4) = 260%
Penance - [(2 * 264% * 3 * 1.2 * 1.3) * 0.8] + (2 * 264% * 3 * 0.2 * 1.2 * 1.4 * 1.3) = 2669%
PW:S - (9 * 600% * 1.4 * 1.2 * 1.3) = 11794%
PoM - [(84% * 5 * 1.25 * 1.2 * 1.3) * 0.8] + (84% * 5 * 1.25 * 0.2 * 1.2 * 1.4 * 1.3) = 885%

Total = 19239%

Now, each stack of AA would give you a bonus healing of 19239% * 0.05 = 962% healing. Without AA up, 1 Smite and 1 PW:S without AA active would heal for:

Smite (plus bonus from 1 stack of AA) - 92% + (92% * 0.2 * 1.4) + 959% = 1078%
PW:S - (600 * 1.4 * 1.2 * 1.3) = 1310%

It does look like casting the Smite is a HPS loss as compared to the PW:S. However, consider the relevant HPM values:

Smite (plus bonus from 1 stack of AA) = 1078% / 1.5% mana = 719 HPM
PW:S = 1310% / 2.4% mana = 546 HPM

*Note that I added reasonable overhealing values for the various heals to get figures that are more representative of what's obtained in a raid setting. This is also just an example - if you're able to fit in a Cascade in there over a PW:S, then the numbers skew slightly further in favour of Smite and the opposite is true if you have to fit in lower HPET spells like CoW. It is also based on current gear levels for myself (673), and more gear would make casting that Smite less desirable due to Smite not having any scaling from Mastery.

The bottom line is that if you find mana being tight on fights (Butcher, Mar'gok) or if there's ever any downtime where a PW:S cast won't be consumed (Kargath, Brackenspore, Tectus, certain points of Ogron and Ko'ragh), it is worth casting that Smite over the PW:S to get 5 stacks of Evangelism for the mana efficiency (note: only when AA is down and NEVER go past 5 stacks). If those things don't apply, then yeah, ignore that Smite and stick with PW:S. The only exception to this is if you have PI queued up with the next AA, then you'll definitely want AAx5 to maximize the returns from PI + AA.

Another small note, you should be ignoring Atonement (except for Solace) for the last 20s or so of each fight because you're either about to use your last AA of the fight or already have it just triggered, which essentially makes those Evangelism stacks generated past that point worthless.

Finally, as pointed above, offensive Penance > defensive Penance, but really only when AA isn't active IMO.

[Placebro]

Let's assume 40% Mastery (20% healing), 15% Haste and 20% crit. In 18 seconds, let's say you cast 1 EAA/PoH, 1 Solace, 2 Penance, 9 PW:S and 1 free PoM. That will net you a total healing of:

EAA/PoH - [(221.7% * 5 * 1.2 * 1.3) * 0.7] + (221.7% * 5 * 1.2 * 1.4 * 1.3) = 3631%
Solace - 203% + (203% * 0.2 * 1.4) = 260%
Penance - [(2 * 264% * 3 * 1.2 * 1.3) * 0.8] + (2 * 264% * 3 * 0.2 * 1.2 * 1.4 * 1.3) = 2669%
PW:S - (9 * 600% * 1.4 * 1.2 * 1.3) = 11794%
PoM - [(84% * 5 * 1.25 * 1.2 * 1.3) * 0.8] + (84% * 5 * 1.25 * 0.2 * 1.2 * 1.4 * 1.3) = 885%

Total = 19239%

Now, each stack of AA would give you a bonus healing of 19239% * 0.05 = 962% healing. Without AA up, 1 Smite and 1 PW:S without AA active would heal for:

Smite (plus bonus from 1 stack of AA) - 92% + (92% * 0.2 * 1.4) + 959% = 1078%
PW:S - (600 * 1.4 * 1.2 * 1.3) = 1310%

It does look like casting the Smite is a HPS loss as compared to the PW:S. However, consider the relevant HPM values:

Smite (plus bonus from 1 stack of AA) = 1078% / 1.5% mana = 719 HPM
PW:S = 1310% / 2.4% mana = 546 HPM

I'm not sure I disagree with the conclusion that smite can be an HPM gain, but a bunch of your numbers seem strange to me.

How are you getting 264% and * 3 for penance? Penance does 100% spellpower healing TOTAL if you cast it offensively, and 220% spellpower TOTAL if you cast it defensively. If you cast it offensively (during AA vs not is irrelevant, since the opportunity cost remains the same, so you more than recoup it during the next AA), it does 2*[(2*100*1.3*1.4)*0.2+(100*1.3*1.2)*0.8]=395.2%

Your EAA/POH number I am also confused about. Shouldn't it be 0.6*(5*2*221.7*1.3*1.2)+0.4*(5*2*221.7*1.3*1.4)=3689

I am also confused about your solace number. Shouldn't it be 0.2*203*1.3*2*1.4+0.8*203*1.3*1.2=401

I agree with your PoM number.

So my total is 401+3689+395.2+11794+885=17164

So a little less, but the conclusion will still be the same, I think. Smite is a bit more HPM than PWS.

I also agree that if you have PI or heroism coming up, smite your heart out to get to 5 stacks, because Smite becomes a HPS increase with a 1s GCD.

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We can actually work out the breakpoint. Smite does (92*2*0.2*1.3*1.4)+(92*0.8*1.3*1.2)=181.792 SP healing. The benefit from 1 stack AA is 0.05*17164=858.2. So total from smite you get 858.2+181.792=1039.992 healing.

To break even on HPS with PWS, you'd have to do (1310-181.792)/0.05=22564.16 SP healing over 18s with those numbers. That's 17 casts of PWS, so the HPS breakpoint is pretty much exactly "Will you have a ~1s GCD, and are you planning on spamming PWS the entire time?" You can PROBABLY sneak an EAA PoH in there and be ok.

To break even on HPM, you'd need for (x+181.792)/1.5=546. x=637.208. So you'd need to do as low as 637.208/0.05=12744.16 SP healing over the 18s for the smite to not be worth it. That's equivalent to 10 PWS casts. In other words, if you plan on getting useful healing out of the full "rotation" ceddya give, Smite is probably gonna be decent HPM. On the other hand, if there's gonna be a lot of overheal (Specifically, (17164-12744.16)/17164=25.7% overheal), or you are just popping AA for the EAA PoH, then the smite won't really be better.


++++++++++++TL;DR++++++++++++

The moral of the story is, if you are preparing for periods of high damage and you aren't having mana troubles, don't cast smite. If you are preparing for periods of high damage and you are having bad mana troubles, maybe cast smite. If you are popping AA just to get the EAA PoH or plan on doing 25% overhealing during it (because you are a filthy padder), don't cast smite. Realistically, we're comparing a single PWS to 18s of healing, so the overhealing concern is real: that single PWS is going to do much less overhealing than your total healing over 18s, and 25.7% isn't a really big number.

The point is, if you aren't casting smite now and aren't having any problems, you probably don't need to change anything.

[ceddya]

Read the tooltip for Penance. It's 100%/220% for offensive/defensive usage per tick for 3 ticks. Add the 20% buff that isn't reflected in tooltips yet to get the current values.

As for PoH, I don't get why you are separating the values that way. The first portion in my numbers is the actual heal with an assumed 30% overhealing, and the latter is the DA portion.

Solace doesn't benefit from anything either, which is why there's literally no scaling for it apart from crit -> DA.

[Placebro]

Read the tooltip for Penance. It's 100%/220% for offensive/defensive usage per tick for 3 ticks. Add the 20% buff that isn't reflected in tooltips yet to get the current values.

As for PoH, I don't get why you are separating the values that way. The first portion in my numbers is the actual heal with an assumed 30% overhealing, and the latter is the DA portion.

Solace doesn't benefit from anything either, which is why there's literally no scaling for it apart from crit -> DA.

Ok, the penance amount is indeed per tick.

For PoH, 5*2*221.7*1.3 is the total amount of healing+absorbs done before mastery is taken into account. 50% of this gets multiplied by 1.2, and 50% of this gets multiplied by 1.4, hence my split.

I honestly didn't see much point in including overhealing at that stage, because you have to make assumptions about the overhealing of each ability (for example, you implicitly assumed PWS does not overheal at all, which if you look at top logs is not true). Instead, at the end I computed an overheal amount for the 18s that would make a non-overheal PWS worth more than a smite when you make that choice (i.e., with my numbers, 25.7% overhealing over those 18s makes a 0% overheal PWS break even with smite on HPM). Since penance does more healing, the overheal amount required is slightly higher, but not so high that the value of smite is once again questionable.

As for solace, it's trickier because each tick can crit independently, but certainly the entire thing doesn't benefit from full mastery (your 1.4), and DOES benefit from grace (solace just directly procs atonement for disc). The problem is you have a 0.2 on one term (presumably accounting for the amount that crits, but ignoring grace), but no corresponding 0.8 and other benefits on the non-crib term.

401 comes from the fact that about 20% of the healing from solace will crit, which benefits from 1.4 mastery, and 80% does not, which benefits from 1.2 mastery, and both of these benefit from grace.

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Oops. PoH should be 0.5 and 0.5. So 0.5*(5*2*221.7*1.3*1.2)+0.5*(5*2*221.7*1.3*1.4)=3746.73. So very slightly more. A little higher.

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Ok, I just tested it in game, and I'm wrong. Atonement healing does not benefit from Grace or Mastery. The DA appears to benefit from both, however? It's really confusing how these interact. If the DA doesn't benefit from grace either, you are correct. Otherwise, there's just another 1.3 on the DA portion.

[ceddya]

Your PoH numbers are still off, because the DA portion of it isn't including the fact that it double dips from both the healing and absorb Mastery.

Anywho, in a high damage setting, casting that Smite actually becomes stronger due to the lower overhealing. I've often found that what gates my output is mana, which is why I've found the slight (very marginal) efficiency boost from the 1-2 Smite casts to be pretty useful.

[Myllior]

Ok, I just tested it in game, and I'm wrong. Atonement healing does not benefit from Grace or Mastery. The DA appears to benefit from both, however? It's really confusing how these interact. If the DA doesn't benefit from grace either, you are correct. Otherwise, there's just another 1.3 on the DA portion.

The way it should be working is that neither Grace nor the healing portion of Discipline's Mastery should apply to the Atonement heal itself (as you've mentioned). However, when it is critical and so produces a Divine Aegis, the aegis should be increased by the absorb portion of Discipline's Mastery.