Things that are currently broken in pvp and need fixing

[germonik]

High skillcap? is that a joke lol, target healer and faceroll into them while spamming burst of speed, rogues used to have a high skill cap but combat is the biggest faceroll spec ive seen in a long time, in all my games against combat rogues i dont remember them even swapping or peeling they literally just pve healers down and sadly its effective.
Most classes are useless outside of cds, and 8 sec ks is always constant pressure on any healer, wow you have to time an ability with a passive effective such a high skill cap.
Just nerf combat buff sub, combat should never be a pvp spec.

I hate when people say x class does more dmg/healing because its a pointless comparison, your dk is preading dots and doing aoe most of which is useless dmg and easily healed, what wins games is burst and cc and 8 sec ks into redbuff + killing spree is much better than anything dk can bring which is why combat rogue has higher representaion than dk.

Combat is not going to be getting nerfed in the slightest damage wise. It is already the worstt performing single target melee spec in the game.

Burst and CC are definitely not the only factor in winning games. Surv hunter expshot, barrow, crows, glaive, toth procs is about the same damage as red buff ksp. I'm not sure you have faced very many rogue teams. If you had, you would know that what really wears you down is their teammate, most effectively a lock. If your warlock hasn't done at least two times the damage as your rogue, your lock is not playing the game correctly. What gets the game to the point where red buff ksp matters is that a lock has worn down the team enough the healer can't keep up, typically in dampening.

Also, about DK representation, when you combine frost/uh it has higher representation than combat. When you add sub in for rogue they are just barely above DK. I find it a bit odd considering there are 4 posts on the front page right now complaining about combat. I assume you are also aware that hunter surv/bm representation is higher as well. As I'm sure you know, most hunters above 2k switch based on their comp, and their opponents comp.

[Deleted]

Man show me more than 2 rogues that are top 50. If combat is so OPOPOP why aren't they getting the highest ratings ?

Its because ppl learn to play vs combat. If you know what the red buff is and if you know that you can kill the Shadow Reflection with ez, then cobmat rogues just do zero dmg/pressure.

The ladders are full of ret/disc/hunter/dk/resto drood. Those are the classes they should address. 8sec kidney is very strong, but the class sucks anyways so wheres the problem.

And by the way, if tunneling a healer and killing him works you doing something wrong buddy. Its not like you can solo any healer with a combat rogue. Its not like there are 20 million rets with bop or sac or hoj. Its not black and white. A combat rogue with no CDs up and no red buff is just pure pitiful shit.

Imo 90% of the forum posters should L2P be4 posting. Iam 100% certain they just do shit and cry much instead of thinking about ways to win or counter stuff.

[Deleted]

Combat is not going to be getting nerfed in the slightest damage wise. It is already the worstt performing single target melee spec in the game.

Burst and CC are definitely not the only factor in winning games. Surv hunter expshot, barrow, crows, glaive, toth procs is about the same damage as red buff ksp. I'm not sure you have faced very many rogue teams. If you had, you would know that what really wears you down is their teammate, most effectively a lock. If your warlock hasn't done at least two times the damage as your rogue, your lock is not playing the game correctly. What gets the game to the point where red buff ksp matters is that a lock has worn down the team enough the healer can't keep up, typically in dampening.

Also, about DK representation, when you combine frost/uh it has higher representation than combat. When you add sub in for rogue they are just barely above DK. I find it a bit odd considering there are 4 posts on the front page right now complaining about combat. I assume you are also aware that hunter surv/bm representation is higher as well. As I'm sure you know, most hunters above 2k switch based on their comp, and their opponents comp.

And the lock gets to wear the team down because the rogue can perma shut down healers with 8 sec ks and the fact they are mostly unpeelable, i have played quite a few rogue teams as a resto shaman, try healing any game against a combat rogue team (if your not a druid), all the rogue has to do is train healer non stop nothing else, healer will fall behind at some point or use up all there cds and will just flop in 8 sec stun eventually, i dont even think combat is that op compared to other specs right now but combat rogue is just frustrating to fight and an 8 sec stun in wod playstyle is just obnoxious.

People complain about stuff that is frustrating to fight, watching my team rot while i get 100-0% in a 8 sec stun in an expansions where there is supposed to be less cc and casters are supposed to be casting more makes me laugh, and watching a rogue burst of speed non stop to me through all my kite abilities is beyond annoying to fight, so is being perma cc'd by hunter which is why they get the most complaints, current 8 sec ks and 12sec traps are just horrendous abilities that should have been hotfixed by now. They were supposed to be toning back or removing these insta ccs and melee shutdown but have allowed it to actually be worse than mop.

[Deleted]

Man show me more than 2 rogues that are top 50. If combat is so OPOPOP why aren't they getting the highest ratings ?

Because we have mouthbreathers like lolretadin complaining about rogues because he doesn't know how to bubble when the rogue uses killing spree.

Sorry to say, but if this is your attitude then I hope you enjoy the 1500 bracket for eternity.

Hows life in the 1600 bracket?

[germonik]

i dont even think combat is that op compared to other specs right now but combat rogue is just frustrating to fight and an 8 sec stun in wod playstyle is just obnoxious.

I'm glad you can acknowledge this part.

This is really my core complaint. I don't play a rogue. I play a warrior and have a warlock alt, as well as a DK. I just find it hilarious that there are so many absolutely repetitive posts on the front page about one class that barely has an edge (or no edge at all) in representation over other specs that have absolutely no complaints about them on the forum. Also, if you are anywhere below 2k, this comp isn't the reason you are losing. I guarantee you that if you are in this bracket, you or your team is making mistakes that is costing the game. Rogue is not so OP that it is carrying bad players, and if it is, it is doing so at the same rate as a hunter, dk, paladin, druid, or warlock. If you don't have one of those on your team you could probably likely use a buff I admit.

This first season of the exp is extremely balanced compared every other expansion's first season. I'm sure those of you who have PvPed for a while remember TfB, remember stampede at the start of the last expansion. Combat rogues right now based on the forum complaints are the pinnacle of OP, and yet are barely the top spec, and when compared with classes that can switch spec, are in fact, not the top.

This is because of the simple facts I pointed out earlier. For all the complaints about rogue damage, it is simply not there outside of KsP, at all. Teams are able to counter this and prepare defensives around it. Also, please do not reference twelve second stun as if it's a reality. If your team allows someone to eat a 12 second stun without taking care of either the rogue, or the shadow during that time, they are not playing the game correctly and deserve to lose the match. Shadow Reflection is a terrible talent to use against tems that know to properly use defensive cooldowns or call out peeling for their teammates. There is a reason so few top rogues are using it. And no, healers fall behind against warlocks in dampening because warlock dps in dampening is unhealable. The rogue training the healer helps accelerate it slightly, but warlock damage in dampening will push healers past their limits, even if the other dps on the lock team spends most of their time just peeling.

I also think it is absolutely cruel that people are trying to say combat "shouldn't be a pvp spec" on the grounds that it is too simple or something. The fact you said should be buffed, while mut is literally as bad as ww monk atm shows a real lack of knowledge of the game. The combat rogue playstyle is extremely similar to both frost/uh playstyle. I would say that my DK probably has even less keybinds than a rogue would. Combat rogue still has some finesse through the proper use of blind (which is still required for successful combat rogues.) My DK at 2300 has a similar train the healer mentality, which I am generally able to achieve with great results. I assume you would also feel that DKs should just be blood for pvp since the other two specs are so damage focused.

[Deleted]

I'm glad you can acknowledge this part.

This is really my core complaint. I don't play a rogue. I play a warrior and have a warlock alt, as well as a DK. I just find it hilarious that there are so many absolutely repetitive posts on the front page about one class that barely has an edge (or no edge at all) in representation over other specs that have absolutely no complaints about them on the forum. Also, if you are anywhere below 2k, this comp isn't the reason you are losing. I guarantee you that if you are in this bracket, you or your team is making mistakes that is costing the game. Rogue is not so OP that it is carrying bad players, and if it is, it is doing so at the same rate as a hunter, dk, paladin, druid, or warlock. If you don't have one of those on your team you could probably likely use a buff I admit.

This first season of the exp is extremely balanced compared every other expansion's first season. I'm sure those of you who have PvPed for a while remember TfB, remember stampede at the start of the last expansion. Combat rogues right now based on the forum complaints are the pinnacle of OP, and yet are barely the top spec, and when compared with classes that can switch spec, are in fact, not the top.

This is because of the simple facts I pointed out earlier. For all the complaints about rogue damage, it is simply not there outside of KsP, at all. Teams are able to counter this and prepare defensives around it. Also, please do not reference twelve second stun as if it's a reality. If your team allows someone to eat a 12 second stun without taking care of either the rogue, or the shadow during that time, they are not playing the game correctly and deserve to lose the match. Shadow Reflection is a terrible talent to use against tems that know to properly use defensive cooldowns or call out peeling for their teammates. There is a reason so few top rogues are using it. And no, healers fall behind against warlocks in dampening because warlock dps in dampening is unhealable. The rogue training the healer helps accelerate it slightly, but warlock damage in dampening will push healers past their limits, even if the other dps on the lock team spends most of their time just peeling.

I also think it is absolutely cruel that people are trying to say combat "shouldn't be a pvp spec" on the grounds that it is too simple or something. The fact you said should be buffed, while mut is literally as bad as ww monk atm shows a real lack of knowledge of the game. The combat rogue playstyle is extremely similar to both frost/uh playstyle. I would say that my DK probably has even less keybinds than a rogue would. Combat rogue still has some finesse through the proper use of blind (which is still required for successful combat rogues.) My DK at 2300 has a similar train the healer mentality, which I am generally able to achieve with great results. I assume you would also feel that DKs should just be blood for pvp since the other two specs are so damage focused.

I remember s5 dks and tbc druids, this is not as bad but it still sucks the fun out of arena right now, as a shaman though rogues are just cancer right now.

I play at 2.1k currently, ive played rogues at 1800 2k and 2.3k i could tell very little difference between any of them, target me (resto sham) and tunnel non stop, the opposite of mop really when i thought rogues were one of the highest skill cap you could spot a top rogue easily back then, some specs should just stay pve most rogues i know hate the spec and i havent seen many high rated rogues saying they love combat.
And a rogue doesnt need dmg when he can perma lock out most healers which is why rld is so strong, lock just rots team and combat rogue just trains healer and prevents him playing the game, whenever i see rld and im not on my druid i want to just leave the game.
The difference between dk and rogue is dk is actually kiteable, thats there main weakness they get kited a lot but if they connect you feel the pain, you cant peel a rogue though without stuns and even then it buys you a few secs at most, i love taking my locks portal getting round a pillar and seeing a rogue just bos across the map in seconds to get straight back on me.

[Gentlepenguin]

Being bad outside of KS is no excuse though. There is no reason for such a broken mechanic to exist; same goes for 55 sec Life Cocoon among others. I'd rather be barely viable with a full toolkit than extremely strong because of 1 ridiculous ability

wats ridiculous about two extra seconds. i'm pretty sure most people would still lose to the same teams under a 6 second stun.

[Ethidia]

Disc priests are pallys on steroids pretty much, even their straight casted flash heal is a larger amount without any trinks/procs. I guess everyone forgets about spirit shell as a cd? I don't see many pros running it but its an amazing cd when used correctly. Lifegrip is a savior as well. I suppose I was thinking in the back of my mind that they had lifeswap or something when I made that comment, their cds are not numerous anymore. Pallys are 100% cd based; we literally heal about as good as rets with no cds (8k holy shocks man!), so thats hard to compare. Priest cc doesn't DR with hunters, rets, dks, or rogues (for the most part) and thats all you need from your cc right now. Holy fire also gets you out of trap with some reaction speed, guise prevents cc due to bad/repositioning and allows you to land cc without getting caught yourself, and ofc fear ward (although easily purgable). Plz don't even talk to me about tankiness; well played disc has good survivability but is rarely ever well played (lack of spirit shell on people's specs makes it evident, although people might respec in arenas). I won't even mention pallys complete reliance on bubble (which is, shocker, countered by disc priests).

Please don't toss around the "theres this many over 2600" numbers again they have almost no value to 99.99% of the playerbase. And I already linked the EU numbers earlier or in some other thread, 9 priests (1 behind shams for the top spot) and 2 pallys (by far the lowest healer) in the top 100 so it depends on the region.

Like I said, they probably aren't OP since druids exist but they aren't weak as some people keep claiming them to be. And not everyone runs comps laden with offensive dispels (hpal/war/lock currently).

Have you ever played Disc?

[Prag]

wats ridiculous about two extra seconds. i'm pretty sure most people would still lose to the same teams under a 6 second stun.

You're right. When Blizzard developers say this...

Another big takeaway from Mists of Pandaria is that there was simply too much crowd control (CC) in the game. To solve that, we knew that we needed an across-the-board disarmament.

...it definitely doesn't include 8 second stuns. Nope, that wouldn't fall into "too much crowd control". It's also pretty hilarious that "across the board" apparently meant everyone but Rogues.

[Gentlepenguin]

You're right. When Blizzard developers say this...



...it definitely doesn't include 8 second stuns. Nope, that wouldn't fall into "too much crowd control". It's also pretty hilarious that "across the board" apparently meant everyone but Rogues.

we lost cc duration, smoke bomb duration, and DR categories were cut down to eliminate some cc chains. rogues were pruned like everyone else. they didn't skip us just because they didn't remove something you personally wanted removed. this is not even an explanation, what i asked for. what specifically is causing you to lose between 6 to 8 seconds other than your feely weelings not feeling good about it?

a lot of people just seem to be going "rogue...rogue has this! they're making us bleed our own blood! they were 0% representation in MoP above 2400 and that's where they should have stayed!"

[Prag]

we lost cc duration, smoke bomb duration, and DR categories were cut down to eliminate some cc chains. rogues were pruned like everyone else. they didn't skip us just because they didn't remove something you personally wanted removed. this is not even an explanation, what i asked for. what specifically is causing you to lose between 6 to 8 seconds other than your feely weelings not feeling good about it?

a lot of people just seem to be going "rogue...rogue has this! they're making us bleed our own blood! they were 0% representation in MoP above 2400 and that's where they should have stayed!"

What explanation needs to be made? 8 seconds of CC when other classes were completely pruned of anti-melee abilities is excessive, regardless of whether or not it's the deciding factor in a game. It goes against their entire speech at Blizzcon about balancing CC to give players more ability to play their characters.

Also, Rogues weren't 0% representation at any point in MoP, were they? Combat, perhaps...

You can be as condescending as you wish, but as Casters scale through seasons and Rogues are left behind, you'll see that being balanced around an 8s Kidney is going to be the sole reason representation plummets because Red buff KS isn't doing it's job at 740 ilvl (or whatever the next Conq gear is).

[Gentlepenguin]

"my class lost something and yours didn't lose as many in a game wide cc reduction and i feel bad about that" is your only reasoning then? this feels like arguing with people about gluten free diets.

two extra seconds is bad cuz...cuz...becuz...cuz i don't like it! and it's bad for you!

[Prag]

"my class lost something and yours didn't lose as many in a game wide cc reduction and i feel bad about that" is your only reasoning then? this feels like arguing with people about gluten free diets.

two extra seconds is bad cuz...cuz...becuz...cuz i don't like it! and it's bad for you!

Cool, you have nothing of merit to add to the discussion.

[Shaderas]

...the opposite of mop really when i thought rogues were one of the highest skill cap you could spot a top rogue easily back then...

Don't confuse terms. Rogues still have a very high skillcap.... their skill floor has dropped some though, so that people just learning to play it can do relatively well, because of the mechanics of combat.

- - - Updated - - -

"my class lost something and yours didn't lose as many in a game wide cc reduction and i feel bad about that" is your only reasoning then? this feels like arguing with people about gluten free diets.

two extra seconds is bad cuz...cuz...becuz...cuz i don't like it! and it's bad for you!

While I agree that people are complaining two much, stuns have always been something that you have to balance very carefully in any MMO, and I do agree that 8 seconds is probably too much. To your average player, 2 extra seconds isn't going to mean a whole lot, but when you have have higher skill players, if that doesn't get trinketed/abated in some way, those extra 2 seconds can make a difference. I think it would be appropriate to remove Kidney Shot from Revealing Strike's buff.

Currently, in 3v3, at 2200+ Combat is the 7th highest represented spec, and the 4th highest DPS spec. The Specs above it are:

1. Survival Hunter
2. Resto Druid
3. Disc Priest
4. Ret Pally
5. Aff Lock
6. Resto Shaman

At 2400, Combat rogues are 5th, behind Resto Druid, Aff Lock, Surv Hunt and Resto Sham in that order.


I say this, having a rogue as my main since Vanilla, almost day 1.

[germonik]

Don't confuse terms. Rogues still have a very high skillcap.... their skill floor has dropped some though, so that people just learning to play it can do relatively well, because of the mechanics of combat.

- - - Updated - - -



While I agree that people are complaining two much, stuns have always been something that you have to balance very carefully in any MMO, and I do agree that 8 seconds is probably too much. To your average player, 2 extra seconds isn't going to mean a whole lot, but when you have have higher skill players, if that doesn't get trinketed/abated in some way, those extra 2 seconds can make a difference. I think it would be appropriate to remove Kidney Shot from Revealing Strike's buff.

Currently, in 3v3, at 2200+ Combat is the 7th highest represented spec, and the 4th highest DPS spec. The Specs above it are:

1. Survival Hunter
2. Resto Druid
3. Disc Priest
4. Ret Pally
5. Aff Lock
6. Resto Shaman

At 2400, Combat rogues are 5th, behind Resto Druid, Aff Lock, Surv Hunt and Resto Sham in that order.


I say this, having a rogue as my main since Vanilla, almost day 1.

I agree with a lot of this post, but I would say that it is important to keep in mind that hunter is actually even more dominant than they already look, as the vast majority of top hunters switch specs depending upon their team comp.

Once Kidney Strike is removed from Revealing Strike, I have a feeling Blizz will be comfortable going ahead with the damage buffs Combat desperately needs in PvE as well.

[Grimbold21]

Deathknights

[Deleted]

Deathknights

This, basically.

Rets also have way, way, waaaay too much utility, hunter trap needs a heavy swipe with the nerf bat, and resto druids are just far too good for every purpose.

Other than that - and the obvious fact that lots of specs need significant buffs - PvP is actually okay

[ombramo]

If you're going to get rid of caster mobility, you also need to tone down on melee's gap closers and interrupts. Seriously I want you guys to imagine for one moment what it's like to play a destro lock in an arena setting. First of all, you need to get immolate up on your target. Understand the first 6 times you cast this spell you will be stunned, interrupted, into another stun and then a silence. secondly, after you have casted your dot ability, its time to start casting some incinerates to build up some ember fire. understand the first 4 incinerates are just for show to insure your partner that youre not completely useless. of course these incinerates wont ever actually hit anyone because they'll be interrupted. You've successfully built a few embers, its time to unleash hell upon your enemies. I'll cast havoc on the healer, fear the dk off of me. and let out 2 chaos bolts, only for them to be absorbed by a combination of priest bubbles and AMS. Oh and that dk trinketed the fear so he interrupted your chaos bolt with a death grip straight into a meat grinder. Ok, he trinked, maybe i should try fearing again. No, interrupted. Lets try again. Lichborne. Ok. lets cc the priest. Oh, fear ward. Ok, ill just let off a few incinerates in the meantime and build up some embers. Oh, the priest just silenced me. Finally i am unsilenced and ready to reign some pain on these fucking guys right? Oh AMS is up, so is his stun, oh shit, he also has his trinket.

/afk


what im trying to say is that WOD will be melee's best expansion because of the insane amount of interrupts, gap closers, and cc's they have. oh and hunters are basically casters UNSCATHED by the mobility nerfs.

ALSO : why the flying fuck do priests have a vanish? why do rogues have 300 ways to leave combat and restealth? they dont even need to leave combat theyll just vanish 14 times. why cant warriors ever be feared. why are shamans so fucking weak? why are dk's immune to cc for entire arena matches? why does blizzard get such a hard on for melee??