how hard is normal in comparison?

[Pur1tas]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ing-Difficulty



The playerbase at large DOES NOT WANT TO PROGRESSION RAID.

I read this post as you linked it earlier I though and to be honest I do not think this represents anything. This does not account for PvP players and players that have not reached the max level. If you look at the numbers of guilds that actually TRIED to do normal mode the % numbers are way higher, meaning the numbers based on the total amount of characters existing are just not really cutting it. This does show people do not want to raid but they do not have to. There is, as I stated before a lot of other stuff to do. Even if we take out 50% of active players to be PvP players, we double the % that are given at the end and which you posted here.

In addition even the OP of the post is giving no real resource for this information. and if I am not mistaken he mixed up players with guilds but that might be me making the mistake right there.

BUT even if I take the numbers he gives in his post for granted, most people did not even try to do normal mode. A high percantage of guilds that tried to kill bosses also downed them and this does not include the players that went with random groups. So while the overall % of players trying bosses was very low in comparrisson to the amount of subscirbers to the game, the amount of guilds that actually killed the bosses they tried has not been that bad.

So if we consider that 50% of players do PvP (which I think more do) and most of the others did not even TRY to do normal modes, the numbers you are presenting here are completely irrelevant. In addition there are not only two factions of players (Raids vs PvP) but a lot of players enjoy doing other stuff not looking into either of those. These numbers you provided give very little information on how many players that actually WANTED to raid failed before the first boss.

So again IF there are players willing to do raiding (and yes raiding includes wiping, as PvP includes dying) they could always start with normal and at least get some bosses down. While there might be players that do not want this we have LFR for those and/or Heroic dungeons if they do not want to hang out with random people.

For every player that has absolutely no interesst in Dungeons/Raiding etc. OR PvP, there are a lot of other things to do such as: Auction House, Pet Battles, Questing (even though I accept this might be very little this addon I doubt there are a lot of people who have finished every quest in WoW), Farming (yes there are people enjoying this), Achievement hunting etc.

So while the Thread you posted is really interesting it gives close to 0 information on how many people that actually wanted to kill bosses, did not because they were not into wiping. The numbers you provide displays all the people with active acounts in comparison to the number of guilds killing bosses. It just is not a source that applies to this topic m8.

[Osmeric]

Injin, please do not fall into the error of computing "percentage raiding" by dividing the NA/EU progression numbers against the world active account number. Wowprogress and MMO-C do NOT track progression in China.

The %-ages are low, but not as low as they are if you make that error.

[borisshayo]

I am merely describing how the world of warcrafts playerbase has actually behaved for the last ten years.

Questing, levelling and crafting - yes.

Progression raiding - no.

You can't argue with the facts.

You're advocating terrible game design that wow thankfully got rid of long ago. Progress being based around longwinded, tedious, but ultimately trivial tasks, rather than engaging and challenging content. Just because a lot of people enjoyed (I guess?) doing that kind of stuff doesn't make it good design. So unless your goal is for blizzard to rake in as much cash as they can rather than actually improving the game, it really doesn't matter that most people don't enjoy mythic raiding.

Anyway, you're probably right about normal. There's not much of a point to it with heroic being flexible and they might as well remove it I think. I have no idea what you want that's not lfr but is easy enough that people who can't clear most of normal will be able to do it, though. Like others have said, there's no middle ground. There's no way to make normal any easier without completely removing the need to correctly do any of the mechanics, in which case it's just lfr. Would you be satisfied if they made it so that you could queue a lfr with a 10-30 man group and no other players could join? So you could play with your F&F group without any strangers? If so, fair enough, they might as well put that in. Still, you're insane if you think there's a huge demand for this. You're right that most players aren't interested in mythic progression raiding, but most players don't fall in this very specific category either. Most players either don't care too much about the game and are satisfied to run a couple of lfrs and 5 mans. The ones who do care as much for the game that they wish to do organized raiding with their friends and family generally are good enough to be able to clear normal highmaul

[Deleted]

You're advocating terrible game design that wow thankfully got rid of long ago.

No, i'm pointing out that wow was at it's most successful when what you call "Terrible game design" was most players content.

Progress being based around longwinded, tedious, but ultimately trivial tasks, rather than engaging and challenging content. Just because a lot of people enjoyed (I guess?) doing that kind of stuff doesn't make it good design.

It does if you are selling to the mass market.

So unless your goal is for blizzard to rake in as much cash as they can rather than actually improving the game, it really doesn't matter that most people don't enjoy mythic raiding.

Unless your goal is not serving as many players as possible, then you want to be giving people in general the content they like.

Anyway, you're probably right about normal. There's not much of a point to it with heroic being flexible and they might as well remove it I think. I have no idea what you want that's not lfr but is easy enough that people who can't clear most of normal will be able to do it, though. Like others have said, there's no middle ground. There's no way to make normal any easier without completely removing the need to correctly do any of the mechanics, in which case it's just lfr. Would you be satisfied if they made it so that you could queue a lfr with a 10-30 man group and no other players could join? So you could play with your F&F group without any strangers? If so, fair enough, they might as well put that in. Still, you're insane if you think there's a huge demand for this. You're right that most players aren't interested in mythic progression raiding, but most players don't fall in this very specific category either. Most players either don't care too much about the game and are satisfied to run a couple of lfrs and 5 mans. The ones who do care as much for the game that they wish to do organized raiding with their friends and family generally are good enough to be able to clear normal highmaul

Again, nothing to do with what I want really and all to do with what the playerbase likes.

Playerbase likes - romantic walks on the beach, nights in doing the same repetitive mob killing over and over for rep, cats, long assed levelling periods and grindy questy shit.
Playerbase dislikes - douchebags, complicated mechanics, progression raiding, min maxing and learing how to play properly.

[Aqua]

It's in between flex SoO and Normal SoO.

If you're in that bracket it will certainly test you... I've heard lamentations and remembering the first week I agree it was slightly harder hitting than I recall flex SoO being... but maybe that had something to do with it coming late and our gear being quite abundant and strong.

[cabyio]

Normal Highmaul feels harder than flex ToT or normal BWD/Firelands to me.

Flex ToT huh... okey then.

[Stormspark]

If you're struggling on normal butcher at 645 ilvl it is because either your players are bad or your strat is bad. Figure out which it is and fix it.

My guild (which does have some "bad" players) managed to kill normal butcher after 3 attempts at 630 ilvl. Typically, problems on this fight when you are geared enough to do it has to do with groups/runners not managing their stacks correctly.

[Osmeric]

My guild (which does have some "bad" players) managed to kill normal butcher after 3 attempts at 630 ilvl. Typically, problems on this fight when you are geared enough to do it has to do with groups/runners not managing their stacks correctly.

I don't think many are griping about Kargath and Butcher; as you say, it's an execution problem (and really only two people need to be going in/out of the groups to manage stacks). I don't think the flex scaling on Tectus is working well, though.

[Deleted]

I don't think many are griping about Kargath and Butcher; as you say, it's an execution problem (and really only two people need to be going in/out of the groups to manage stacks). I don't think the flex scaling on Tectus is working well, though.

I'd say butcher is close to an ideal F+F fight. Only a few people need to know what's going on and everyone else can just sit there dpsing the boss. Tectus et al is a nightmare cos everyone needs to be aware and awake or shit hits the fan, same with bracken at low group numbers.

[Pur1tas]

No, i'm pointing out that wow was at it's most successful when what you call "Terrible game design" was most players content.

The game was at it's most success during WotLK and most if not all of the things you point out such as farming resistance gear, hour long prequests etc. were taken out already. The reason it was at such success during this time is more likely the fact that lorewise Arthas has always been a fan favourite and a lot of WC3 players looked into or played through the addon as it was about Arthas. In addition to that at the end of WotLK there were a lot of dailies to be done and throughout the whole expansion a lot of Items and Item upgrades could be obtained through Rep farming. The reason WotLK was so successful is not that there were more things to do for none raiders, but that the Lore was more interessting to WC3 players and others that know only little about warcraft universe

[HottieDorf]

I believe normal is in a great spot. Top tier raiders are able to blow through it with heroic dungeon gear. Mid tier raiders might struggle on Imperator at 635-645, but they can get it down. F & F guilds can progress on it until they get to 650+ item level where they should be able to do Normal Imperator. If you can't get 7/7 at 650+ then you really are not raiders. I'm not saying that to try to put down someone, but if a top team can do content with 630 item level and you can't do it with 20 item levels higher then you just are not cut out for raiding. Gear can only compensate up to a certain point. There have to be some unforgiving mechanics somewhere or it might as well be LFR 2.0.

I really agree with this. I myself haven't seriously raided since ICC, and when WoD came out I was bound and determined to get back into it. Found a great casual guild and dove into Highmaul the week it came out. We're now 6/7 normal, 1/7 heroic (not likely to do much more than that) and pretty satisfied with our progress. Personally I appreciate the challenge of normal, if I want faceroll I go do LFR. Our raiders' avg ilevel is something like 650 (I'm 642), we were 630 when we started Highmaul because that's what the GL wanted. We raid with 13-15 people, 2 tanks, 3 or 4 healers depending on the fight, and the rest dps, at least 2 of us hunters Every dps does at least 15k bare minimum. We've had a lot of fun learning the mechanics of each fight and working as a team to get the bosses down, and that to me is what raiding is all about. Well, that and sweet purps

[cabyio]

I'd say butcher is close to an ideal F+F fight. Only a few people need to know what's going on and everyone else can just sit there dpsing the boss. Tectus et al is a nightmare cos everyone needs to be aware and awake or shit hits the fan, same with bracken at low group numbers.

I agree there is alot going on in the tectus fight but really doesn't it pretty much boil down to don't stand in bad things?

[Deleted]

I agree there is alot going on in the tectus fight but really doesn't it pretty much boil down to don't stand in bad things?

It does, but ideally for F+F fucking up gets the person who fucks up killed, not other people killed. Random allocation of bad things (tm) is also not good.

If you think about your average F+F run, theres usually a handful of competent or even good players, a few mediocre and a few bad ones. The ideal is that the bad can outweight the good. Which they can't if the bad can get the good brutally murdered, or the DPS requirements are so high that the bad cannot be carried etc

As much as everyone wanks on about "just wanting LFR" - the ideal F+F run is durumu LFR. 8 competent can carry 17 less than competent. (And while I am on, mythic raiders have no idea what a challenge is, try raiding leading when you take literally anyone nd you have to motivate them all, get people to be patient with the slower ones etc Taking 20 out of 30 highly motivated superstars who expect people to be benched the second missed interrupt in a row is piss in comparison.)

[cabyio]

It does, but ideally for F+F fucking up gets the person who fucks up killed, not other people killed. Random allocation of bad things (tm) is also not good.

If you think about your average F+F run, theres usually a handful of competent or even good players, a few mediocre and a few bad ones. The ideal is that the bad can outweight the good. Which they can't if the bad can get the good brutally murdered, or the DPS requirements are so high that the bad cannot be carried etc

As much as everyone wanks on about "just wanting LFR" - the ideal F+F run is durumu LFR. 8 competent can carry 17 less than competent. (And while I am on, mythic raiders have no idea what a challenge is, try raiding leading when you take literally anyone nd you have to motivate them all, get people to be patient with the slower ones etc Taking 20 out of 30 highly motivated superstars who expect people to be benched the second missed interrupt in a row is piss in comparison.)

Ya but not really a fair comparison. Challenge is about bringing your best and overcoming. I could break my leg just to make a race harder... but that would be stupid. I could bring everyone to raid with absolutely no requirements (not even super low ones)... but that would be stupid.

[Deleted]

Ya but not really a fair comparison. Challenge is about bringing your best and overcoming. I could break my leg just to make a race harder... but that would be stupid. I could bring everyone to raid with absolutely no requirements (not even super low ones)... but that would be stupid.

you mean you like your challenges easy.

[Nekowaifu]

I ran normal Highmaul this past weekend with 14 random people I had never met before, and we cleared everyone except Ko'ragh and Imperator. As long as your raid leader has good communication and every single person in the raid understands what to do, you should be good.

As for difficulty? I can't really advocate for that. I skipped normal SOO and went straight to heroic because I bought most of my gear off of the AH. Though I would say normal isn't super difficult, it just requires communication.

[cabyio]

you mean you like your challenges easy.

No. I just like my challenge to be in the actual challenge and not in artificially gibbing myself to make a poor mans challenge.