[PvP] When will Disc finally be buffed?

[Naraga]

PvP feedback only thank you

Has Blizzard gone mad? Why are they nerfing the already worst healer in the game? Correction: Second worst because holy priests are just lol can't even see them as a healer.

Disc's need buffs, now. Might as well all reroll shadow at this point there is absolutely 0 reason to play disc (or holy).

Some great suggestions
- PoM needs to be instant.
- Renew needs to be usable by Priests.
- PoM stacks should get dispelled per charge.
- Fear needs to be made baseline, 8 second duration 28 second cd.
- Disc needs to gain a 35% increase on all his damaging spells, or be given mana burn again.
- Mass dispel needs to be baseline
- SWD needs to be baseline.
- Silence needs to be removed from Disc.
- Feathers needs to be removed from Disc.
- Spectral guise needs to be removed.
- Shields should no longer be able to crit or multistrike.
- Shadowfiend needs to return mana again.
- Dispell should remove 2 buffs again and cost less mana
- Void tendrils need to be removed.
- Replace all removed talents with really bad filler talents that no one would take.
- Possibly nerf Surge of Light.

-Wouldn't complain about that, but I'm not sure how needed it really is.
-Renew is perfectly usable. Just respec to best priest. :P But seriously, I think it's ok for disc not to have a passive heal behind their shields, as that's where your active healing should come in and disc is supposed to be better at preventing damage than at healing it up.
-If you change PoM like that you have to change everything else like that too, Earthshield, destro haste buff, pally fol thingy, etc. Not sure if want...
-28...now that's random. But seeing how "meh" the root is, I'm not sure why you can't just take the fear and there you go? and while there are a couple classes that can get our of it with relative ease, it's still a pretty strong cc once those are out.
-mana burn mechanics were silly, please don't. and why? they already deal quite ok damage for a healer AND heal a bit with it as well. if you want both roll a feral or owl or ret or so I guess. ^^
-mass dispel is baseline? wut? if you mean the glyph, not sure what glyphs disc uses, but as holy I have nothing super exciting to put in there if I face a non-bubble team, so it's not really a big deal, imo.
-but then the druids and shmays are sad because they don't have an execute either.
-I don't get why they got it to begin with, such a random change.
-what's wrong with feathers, for disc specifically?
-true, spectral guise is such a bad spell. it's not like any dot or aoe gets you out immediately anyways.
-why not, every other heal can, what's the difference? next you want dots to not scale with stats again as well...
-there's a talent for that, and while the baseline sf seems like a weird random pseudo dps cd now, mana really isn't much of an issue I feel, with any of the 3 talents.
-dispell is fine, there aren't that many buffs flying around anymore anyways and having a spammable, free dispell (it barely costs mana for it being spammable) is just so good already.
-that or made better. roots are just not good on their own anymore. too much stuff to get out of them. and even if rooted, you still need to get away somehow.
-lel.
-why? you can have like 3 chain procs, yes, that's really good, but you can also have none for entire games. I don't really see it as all that strong in arena. too much rng.

Since this was a good ontopic post I'll explain my thoughts to you.

These changes aren't individual, but a "complete package". I want renew back mainly for the dispel protection it provides and to easy the class up a little bit against spread/split damage teams (were Disc really suffers).

The classes you mentioned regarding the PoM change don't rely as much on dispellable buff's as Priests. The only class that comes to mind is Rdruid but they are already too strong atm. Shield needs legit protection, which brings me to the no longer able to crit/multistrike nerf. If shields in its current state become undispellable or at least hard to dispel they will be too strong, by far. Having a 100k shield crit that can't easily be dispelled would be insane and catapult Priests right at demigod status. Shields haven't been able to crit for almost a decade and that was fine all that time.

The fear change is completely warranted. I believe it was 27 second instead of 28 so that is my fault but Priests have always had that fear. Right now every other healer objectively speaking provides more CC on a shorter CD, whereas in the past Priests were taken because of their CC and offensive pressure. This is also why I want to either buff Priest damage or provide them with mana burn again. Don't forget that in TBC and even Wotlk in an RMP or other heavy control setups a Disc would often count as a third dps if left unchecked. This is what made Priests wanted despite their low mobility and relative squizines. The removal of these factors is one of the reasons Priests are not prime for any comp in the current state of the game.

Yes I mean the glyph baseline. Mass dispel is one of the reasons you would want a Priest over another healer. It has always been baseline until now and that was a bad change. We have many nice glyphs, but can't use any of them. With 90% of the teams on the ladder existing out of ret hunter x, druid or Mage teams you are tunneled into using Inquisitor, Mass dispel and Shadowmagic almost every game. This is also why I want Inquisitor (which I meant with SWD) to be baseline. Not the actual execute from Shadow.

Feathers, spectral guise and silence simply don't belong with the class and steer it away from its niches. It makes hitting fears or repositioning too easy. Also in conjunction with the buffs and changes I am suggesting they would make the class simply too strong. Of course silence removal is only for Disc. Shadow has always had it and it's perfectly fine for them to have it.

Shadowfiend needs to give back mana again because Priests (and to some extent monks) are the only classes that really run oom atm. You say dispelling costs no mana but that is simply not true. If you dispel too often you will find yourself short on mana quickly. Priests have always been the main offensive dispeller (always having been able to dispel 2 for less cost than Shaman's purge for 1). This is one of the niches of Priests that have to be reinstated. Maybe not for Shadow though.

Void tendrils in conjunction with the buffed baseline fear would be too strong hence I suggest removing them.

As you can see my changes remove a few talents from the talent tree. If these were replaced with new, strong talents then the changes as I suggested might make them overpowered. My changes are with the current talents in mind not any new ones that might not fit.

With the changes I have suggested surge of light will probably be too strong of a talent hence it being in need of nerfs, I am not sure though on how. I would like to see it more active than RNG based though.

That's some solid insight Naraga. One thing I can't help but think though is that if you remove spectral guise the priest will need some other option to have a getaway from melee, because that + feathers is all we got. Any non-dispelable slow largely counters it. If spectral guise is removed and replaced with a freedom-esque spell, then you'll just move priests closer to paladins, and I don't really like homogenization of classes.

Many glyphs being mandatory is something that also needs to be looked at. But I only very rarely have both inquisitor and mass dispel up at the same time. You don't always need to be able to pop the bubble instantly. It's mostly only worth when tunneling a mage or paladin down. Other than that the bubble will always give them the precious few seconds before it's dispelled and an interrupt or CC is applied, so the MD doesn't make as big of a difference then.

I agree on giving disc renew back. It'd fix a lot of the issues we're facing atm that other healers simply aren't. Healers are supposed to have strengths and weaknesses, but I feel that disc might have a few too many of the latter.

Disc's have freedom currently (phantasm) but can't use it as its tied to fade which we need for aura mastery. Being immobile as a Priest is not a bad thing, it's perfectly normal. Don't let yourself be content with the luxery of feather and guise. Priests are supposed to be immobile, they have always been. Perhaps a self freedom set bonus on pws in line with the one we had in Cata would be fine but not more than that.

And regarding mass dispel. usually I can get block or divine shield down with less than a second of uptime because I preemptively cast it. But even if I don't, it's always good to have it in case you want to swap to them. Don't forget you can also dispel cyclone with it.

Let's continue from here, what do you think about the suggestions? Do you have some yourself? Post it!

[Haywire5714]

PVE players not welcome? In order to make PVP changes they have to consider PVE as well.

[prwraith]

PVE players not welcome? In order to make PVP changes they have to consider PVE as well.

I'd love them to just cleave pvp off into a separate game / mini game. Otherwise they'll keep screwing pve up because pvp something something unfair / unbalanced.

[Naraga]

PVE players not welcome? In order to make PVP changes they have to consider PVE as well.

Previous thread was already derailed by PvE players please stay out of this one.

None of the changes I suggested except crits for shields effect PvE, but with some tweaking for holy that should be fine.

I'd love them to just cleave pvp off into a separate game / mini game. Otherwise they'll keep screwing pve up because pvp something something unfair / unbalanced.

I am a firm believer of certain specs being PvE and certain being PvP and no need for this "all specs need to be viable for everything" bullsh!t.

[PosPosPos]

I am a firm believer of certain specs being PvE and certain being PvP and no need for this "all specs need to be viable for everything" bullsh!t.

So according to your logic, what's the problem? Disc is just not a PvP spec but is strong in PvE.

[Eace]

I am a firm believer of certain specs being PvE and certain being PvP and no need for this "all specs need to be viable for everything" bullsh!t.

I agree, but you are contradicting yourself here. Disc is atm great in PvE, so why should it be equally great in PvP? (Although IMO Disc is far from bad in PvP.)

[Naraga]

So according to your logic, what's the problem? Disc is just not a PvP spec but is strong in PvE.

Because Holy is the PvE spec and Disc the PvP spec in my logic. This has been traditionally true.

And again stop derailing the thread. Next person that does will be reported.

[Poki]

I just wish they could split PvP and PvE, that the changes they apply for PvE wouldn't change in PvP. Then they could nerf and buff as much as they wanted to without hurting the other part of the game.

It sounds so simple in my own head, but sadly i guess it isn't.

[Wass]

Naraga you have good thoughts about the state of balance that can be discussed but you should really refrain from ditching the PvE people as second class citizens. You could just put the acronym PvP in the title and it'd come across a lot better. Causing more grief is not the way :/

I am like you, I only PvP, but there's a clear majority of priests in this forum that do PvE. In fact we have very few PvP priests here.

Ontopic: https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...53673193267200 was posted recently. If this is anything to go by then I think a solid start would be to have the 4 set make PoM instant cast. It does wee bit of healing which helps deal with melee and also offers dispel protection, which are the two things we really lack in atm.

[PosPosPos]

Because Holy is the PvE spec and Disc the PvP spec in my logic. This has been traditionally true.

And again stop derailing the thread. Next person that does will be reported.

You derailed your own thread, we are just going along with it.

The fact is, class design and balance is not up to you, just because you "think" it should be in "your logic".

Disc has been the premier PvE spec for a while, and Holy the opposite(until WoD), maybe you should actually do PvP more.

[Naraga]

Naraga you have good thoughts about the state of balance that can be discussed but you should really refrain from ditching the PvE people as second class citizens. You could just put the acronym PvP in the title and it'd come across a lot better. Causing more grief is not the way :/

I am like you, I only PvP, but there's a clear majority of priests in this forum that do PvE. In fact we have very few PvP priests here.

Ontopic: https://twitter.com/WarcraftDevs/sta...53673193267200 was posted recently. If this is anything to go by then I think a solid start would be to have the 4 set make PoM instant cast. It does wee bit of healing which helps deal with melee and also offers dispel protection, which are the two things we really lack in atm.

Then they would have to make the painsub 4 set bonus baseline, Disc would be unplayable if you cannot counter the 2nd round of big 2 minute offensive cd's if painsub has a 3 minute cooldown.

And the thread clearly states: PvP feedback only. A mod closed the previous thread because PvE players kept going offtopic, and now they are just doing it again. I am not treating them as 2nd class players there is just nothing useful they can provide to this discussion.

You derailed your own thread, we are just going along with it.

The fact is, class design and balance is not up to you, just because you "think" it should be in "your logic".

Disc has been the premier PvE spec for a while, and Holy the opposite(until WoD), maybe you should actually do PvP more.

Disc has been the PvP spec since before arenas were even introduced. From S1 to S5 they were the PvP healing spec, in S5 shortly holy became more popular because every healer died in under 3 globals and Spirit of redemption would allow Priests to keep healing their team for a while after and win the game that way. From there on it was Disc again till S9 were Priests were again really bad, a few weeks later they were buffed and Disc became normal again. This until MoP, which I haven't played and most self respecting PvP players don't see as a legit expansion. This season Disc is again the main PvP spec. Correct me if I am wrong but during most of this holy was the main PvE healing spec.

Also reported as previously stated.

[PosPosPos]

And the thread clearly states: PvP feedback only. A mod closed the previous thread because PvE players kept going offtopic, and now they are just doing it again. I am not treating them as 2nd class players there is just nothing useful they can provide to this discussion.

The thread was closed because you kept posting inflammatory and deflective remarks about PvE(and the fact that PvP disc cannot be buffed without significant ramifications to PvE).

Disc has been the PvP spec since before arenas were even introduced. From S1 to S5 they were the PvP healing spec, in S5 shortly holy became more popular because every healer died in under 3 globals and Spirit of redemption would allow Priests to keep healing their team for a while after and win the game that way. From there on it was Disc again till S9 were Priests were again really bad, a few weeks later they were buffed and Disc became normal again. This until MoP, which I haven't played and most self respecting PvP players don't see as a legit expansion. This season Disc is again the main PvP spec.

Also reported as previously stated.

The game has come a very long way since S1-5, fact is, Disc hasn't been a "PvP" spec until very recently in WoD(and was suitably nerfed because the spec was either hilariously OP or unplayable with its current toolkit).

Also, making threats of reports doesn't actually do anything on its own. You might want to try harder at making an actual argument that doesn't defeat itself - you feel that you are important enough to mandate which specs are PvP/PvE-oriented, but the reality of it is you aren't.

Again, I quote you: "I am a firm believer of certain specs being PvE and certain being PvP and no need for this "all specs need to be viable for everything" bullsh!t."

If you so much as practice even a shred of what you preach, then accept that Disc is simply not a PvP spec for healers this tier(and the last three, whether or not you make a red herring argument about "MoP is not a real expansion" . It's so simple.

[Naraga]

The thread was closed because you kept posting inflammatory and deflective remarks about PvE(and the fact that PvP disc cannot be buffed without significant ramifications to PvE).


The game has come a very long way since S1-5, fact is, Disc hasn't been a "PvP" spec until very recently in WoD(and was suitably nerfed because the spec was either hilariously OP or unplayable with its current toolkit).

Also, making threats of reports doesn't actually do anything on its own. You might want to try harder at making an actual argument that doesn't defeat itself - you feel that you are important enough to mandate which specs are PvP/PvE-oriented, but the reality of it is you aren't.

Again, I quote you: "I am a firm believer of certain specs being PvE and certain being PvP and no need for this "all specs need to be viable for everything" bullsh!t."

If you so much as practice even a shred of what you preach, then accept that Disc is simply not a PvP spec for healers this tier(and the last three, whether or not you make a red herring argument about "MoP is not a real expansion" . It's so simple.

Disc has been the PvP spec for original and 4 expansions don't cry to me about MoP. Next you are going to state Subtlety isn't the Rogue PvP spec.

And which of my buffs would have significant ramifications for PvE? The PWS nerf can be countered by "This ability cannot crit or multistrike when used in Player versus Player combat".

And reported again for just continually derailing this thread. I don't even know why I am still replying.

[Deleted]

Mists of Pandaria was a great expansion. Too bad you and all the 'great pvp players' have missed it.

Also, reported for continuous flame-bait posting.

[Maniacizsik]

Next you are going to state Subtlety isn't the Rogue PvP spec.

From my experience from the last few seasons which admittedly isnt very much, Sub rogues appear to have been replaced by assassination and combat.
but you're still comparing apples to oranges because everything you have stated is subjective based on your opinion that disc is "the pvp spec".

While I enjoy disc more than holy in pvp, disc is incredibly strong in pve and was pretty much useless in pvp all through mop. With the greater emphasis on disc being an absorb healer with weak throughput healing it isnt surprising that disc is no longer viable in PvP. Asking for what essentially amounts to an entire spec rebuild would resonate too strongly in PvE and will most likely never be done.

Personally I would love to see a simple effect such as Weakened Soul being reset if our PW:S is dispelled from our targets as pretty much the only reason disc is weak right now is because all of our absorbs are dispelable.

[PosPosPos]

Disc has been the PvP spec for original and 4 expansions don't cry to me about MoP. Next you are going to state Subtlety isn't the Rogue PvP spec.

Yeah, and the game revolves around you and your nostalgia.

"Bring back Vanilla Wow, it's the best omgomgomgomg /wavespompoms" - sounds familiar?

And which of my buffs would have significant ramifications for PvE? The PWS nerf can be countered by "This ability cannot crit or multistrike when used in Player versus Player combat".

So you advocate balancing PvP and PvE disc separately, but contradict yourself in a separate post that they should be balanced together because different classes should be viable/unviable.

And reported again for just continually derailing this thread. I don't even know why I am still replying.

If you really want to go down this line, your opening post is in fact derailing the thread because you are discussing the actual details of the buffs rather than the duration/circumstances of when such buffs might or might not be applied as per the thread title "When will Disc finally be buffed", and not "How will Disc finally be buffed".

So to stick to the topic firmly,
your question is "When will Disc finally be buffed"
and the answer to that is "When blizzard comes up with a way to separate PvP balance that they actually agree on"
and not "When Naraga demands that Disc should be a PvP spec".

You are, however, welcome to make such demands by applying(and of course, succeeding) to be a Blizzard game designer working on WoW.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Discipline is fine in PVE, so if its bad in PVP, buffing it to change that would make it too good in pvp.
The fact that you are trying to isolate the two topics is probably what needs to happen in this game in order to obtain true balance.
But I doubt it ever will.

The question itself is already answered though.
When will Discipline be buffed?
It won't be, its already very strong.

I understand the difference in play style, but I'm sure there are a ton of other facets of the game that classes excel and falter in, so if anyone is doing something wrong, its people trying to claim that these segments are separate.

[sagajin]

why cant pvp players and pve players co-exist? surely disc priests who have pve'd for years on end can provide some input that would lead to both sides being satisfied?

[Naraga]

Discipline is fine in PVE, so if its bad in PVP, buffing it to change that would make it too good in pvp.
The fact that you are trying to isolate the two topics is probably what needs to happen in this game in order to obtain true balance.
But I doubt it ever will.

The question itself is already answered though.
When will Discipline be buffed?
It won't be, its already very strong.

I understand the difference in play style, but I'm sure there are a ton of other facets of the game that classes excel and falter in, so if anyone is doing something wrong, its people trying to claim that these segments are separate.

If you read the thread you would see I am not suggesting any buffs that would make Disc stronger in PvE (If anything, weaker). They are all utility/control/pressure changes. No flat out healing buffs that would make Disc's do more HPS.

[PosPosPos]

If you read the thread you would see I am not suggesting any buffs that would make Disc stronger in PvE (If anything, weaker). They are all utility/control/pressure changes. No flat out healing buffs that would make Disc's do more HPS.

Pretty sure suggesting Renew be usable by Disc and Shadowfiend returning mana makes it a healing buff. And a pretty huge one at that.

Also, Silence and Feathers are good in PvE, so you are indeed suggesting PvE nerfs.

- - - Updated - - -

why cant pvp players and pve players co-exist? surely disc priests who have pve'd for years on end can provide some input that would lead to both sides being satisfied?

Unfortunately, the ball is in the court of the person who made the provocative declaration that "Pve players (are) not welcome" in this thread.

PvE players are more than happy to acquiesce to split PvP and PvE balancing as a needed fundamental change, but you have someone making remarks like these undermining a frank conversation between the two groups of people.