Warrior damage in pvp overtuned?

[Deleted]

I see a lot of people actually forget that warriors also have MS, so in theory you actually do 25% more dmg.

[Deleted]

Nothing justifies a 70k noncrit in pvp. Even if it is an execute.

Tell that to demo warlock that can hit for that amount (in pvp situation, they can deal much more if they do a good set up), regardless of your health level.

And crit is reduce in pvp. A 70k hit translate in a 105k crit... As I crit for around 150k in pvp execute, I guess mine are more around 100k base damage. 90k damage after nerf is still more than enough.

Justified nerf, there is no reason to have only 80% HP vs warriors...

It's the class design. Anyway, it always has been the same with warriors, it's just that actual numbers are overkill. It's really a non-issue as you'll die if you're hit by a 50, 60, or 150 k hit below 20% health with the dot rolling. And the nerf won't change execute number by a lot (around 10%).

It's a really good exemple of psychological bias. You're piss cause you take a shit ton of damage, but half of those are irrelevant.

[Madus]

It's the class design. Anyway, it always has been the same with warriors, it's just that actual numbers are overkill. It's really a non-issue as you'll die if you're hit by a 50, 60, or 150 k hit below 20% health with the dot rolling. And the nerf won't change execute number by a lot (around 10%).

It's a really good exemple of psychological bias. You're piss cause you take a shit ton of damage, but half of those are irrelevant.

With defcds it can be diff between life and death.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry but I can't take this seriously.

True, WW monks have more open mobility in the sense of being able to run around more freely, however when it comes to actual up-time and reliable mobility, WW monks are far below warriors. A warrior has a chance to get to someone reliably every 12 seconds with off-GCD slows and Storm Bolt if needed as well as Safeguard (not so reliable, but if used right can be used as a gap closer).

Then comes CC. In terms of individual CC you could say WW monks have more, however when it comes to composition CC WW monks are below that of warriors without a doubt.

Leg Sweep - 45 sec CD - 5 sec stun
Fists of Fury - 25 sec CD - 4 sec stun - requires melee range and channeling > also main source of damage and can be easily broken/abused.
Paralyze - 15 sec CD - 4 sec incapacitate - DRs with any meaningful CC such as traps and polymorphs.

Leg Sweep is always used as a means to reliably get our "burst" off.
Fists of Fury's damage component and "AoE" CC are easily countered.
Paralyze is unreliable due to WW monks not being able to use Glyph of Paralyze which removes DoTs when Paralyze is used.

Then warriors have:

Shockwave - 40 sec CD - 4 sec stun - CD reduced by 20 seconds when used on 3 or more targets - affected by Anger Management: reduces the CD of listed abilities by 1 sec every 30 rage spent (including Storm Bolt).
*Storm Bolt - 30 sec CD - 4 sec stun - 30 yard range
Intimidating Shout - 90 sec CD - 6 sec AoE fear

The huge differences between the CC WW monks have and warriors have is that WW monks rely heavily on our stuns being used on our kill target as a means to RELIABLY get our "burst" off.

Sorry I had to go tryhard here, I just get annoyed by the current state of WW monks and any time someone tries saying anything remotely positive about WW monks or tries to compare them, I just have to 'debunk' that because WW monks are currently the worst melee possible in every. single. aspect.

Oh as a final note. It doesn't matter how much CC or how much mobility we have. If we don't do any meaningful damage when we are actually connected, what's the point of it all? "Yay, I just had to time every single mobility ability I have perfectly and now I do 50% of the damage any other melee does while having put the most effort into actually connecting to my target, yaaaay."

This.

*WWmonkEverythingWillBeAlrightBrofist*

[Saladfork]

@Ermahgerd: It is fine to defend your class. I'm not particularly up-to-date with all the monk changes (haven't gotten too many chars up to 100 yet :3), so it is fine to place your opinion (after all, you play the class, so you know it better). But in regards to quoting me, you should've been arguing as to why monk and warrior damage should be equal (since that was the point of my post). I admitted monk damage was poop. I don't think it should stay as poop, but I don't think it should be inherently on the same level as a warrior (not in the current state of warrior vs. monk cc and mobility).

True, WW monks have more open mobility in the sense of being able to run around more freely, however when it comes to actual up-time and reliable mobility, WW monks are far below warriors. A warrior has a chance to get to someone reliably every 12 seconds with off-GCD slows and Storm Bolt if needed as well as Safeguard (not so reliable, but if used right can be used as a gap closer).

Why is WW uptime far below warriors? (I'm curious) What issues do you normally face as a monk that a warrior wouldn't? As far as monk mobility goes, it didn't change much since MoP--and MoP monk mobility was insane (can anyone argue that it wasn't?). I think the only difference is that you have to use your mobility a lot more defensively now--which is part of the reason why uptime is such an issue.

Then comes CC. In terms of individual CC you could say WW monks have more, however when it comes to composition CC WW monks are below that of warriors without a doubt.

Leg Sweep - 45 sec CD - 5 sec stun
Fists of Fury - 25 sec CD - 4 sec stun - requires melee range and channeling > also main source of damage and can be easily broken/abused.
Paralyze - 15 sec CD - 4 sec incapacitate - DRs with any meaningful CC such as traps and polymorphs.

Leg Sweep is always used as a means to reliably get our "burst" off.
Fists of Fury's damage component and "AoE" CC are easily countered.
Paralyze is unreliable due to WW monks not being able to use Glyph of Paralyze which removes DoTs when Paralyze is used.

Then warriors have:

Shockwave - 40 sec CD - 4 sec stun - CD reduced by 20 seconds when used on 3 or more targets - affected by Anger Management: reduces the CD of listed abilities by 1 sec every 30 rage spent (including Storm Bolt).
*Storm Bolt - 30 sec CD - 4 sec stun - 30 yard range
Intimidating Shout - 90 sec CD - 6 sec AoE fear

The reasoning behind leg sweep and fists being disadvantageous is intertwined with their lack of damage output. I wasn't arguing that their damage should remain as poop.

Regardless, they are valuable multi-purpose CC's. They can't be dismissed as being used for solely one purpose (esp. in 3's). As for paralysis, it is an instant ranged CC. Those are scarce to come by (unless you're a hunter), it feels a bit weird that you're casting it aside as if it is a waste or not strong enough. And I don't understand the part about the glyph, why can't WW monks use it? The way I see it, it should be mandatory for most comps. But correct me if I'm wrong, I learn more every day as this expansion goes on.

As for the warrior CC, I'm not sure why you listed both shockwave and storm bolt. You can only choose one now (in MoP you could have both). Given that, as well as their CD's, I'd say it is safe to say that warriors have less CC.

The huge differences between the CC WW monks have and warriors have is that WW monks rely heavily on our stuns being used on our kill target as a means to RELIABLY get our "burst" off.

It seems like you're insinuating that your CC is useless on anyone but the kill target. What about for peels? What about your partner? Even so, it is still CC--one way or another. Just because it isn't being used on the healer doesn't mean that it has no compositional value.

Sorry I had to go tryhard here, I just get annoyed by the current state of WW monks and any time someone tries saying anything remotely positive about WW monks or tries to compare them, I just have to 'debunk' that because WW monks are currently the worst melee possible in every. single. aspect.

Oh as a final note. It doesn't matter how much CC or how much mobility we have. If we don't do any meaningful damage when we are actually connected, what's the point of it all? "Yay, I just had to time every single mobility ability I have perfectly and now I do 50% of the damage any other melee does while having put the most effort into actually connecting to my target, yaaaay."

It is fine to argue. I agree that monks are in a horrible position right now, but I feel like it is a damage issue (and maybe a bit of a survivability issue since the karma nerf). If their damage was better, they'd be in a great spot (especially with all these healer-killing melee cleaves), IMO. I don't think they are the worst in every single aspect.

As for the final note, CC and mobility does matter (again, my opinion). Perfect example: rogues. Their damage is pretty shitty (outside of killing spree). Yet they are well-represented because they have insane control and good mobility. Some people are complaining that they need more damage (perfectly valid complaint for PvE), but I don't find that to be much of a valid request unless they tone down their control or mobility. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Finally, let me just clarify real quick in case things were misinterpreted: I don't think that monks are in a better position than warriors. I think WW damage is poop and could use an upgrade, but I don't agree with the logic of bringing it up to warrior's damage without considering the differences in CC and mobility. And hopefully I'm not coming off as mean. Let me know your thoughts.