WW-BottledFurry+Chi-Explosion

[Deleted]

I tried some new builds and noticed that the ww-mastery isn't so bad at all.

Bottled Furry gives a chance to get another TeB stack.
Now lets check some skills that generate TeB.

-use 4Chi with any skills
-Chi-Explosion(CE) with 3+Chi
-Chi-Brew(CB)

So when we focus our stats on mastery, we can have a 100% uptime on TeB with 10stacks.
I tested it with a 50% chance and managed to get every 20s over 10 TeB.

How is that possible?
It is easy. Lets say we have 100% chance to generate an extra TeB (actually 70% can be reached atm)

CE with 4 Chi -> generates 4TeB instead of 2TeB
CB-> generates 4TeB instead of 2TeB

Though CE deals less damage then BK(Blackout Kick) per Chi. It generates TeB much faster and makes one Chi one TeB worth as long as you use CE with 3Chi.

For example,
I will use 12Chi once with CE with 3Chi and another with 4Chi to show the difference
{***}=CE with 3CHi
{****}=CE with 4Chi
l= generates TeB after 4Chi used

{***}{*l**}{**l*}{***}l -> 14TeB

{****}l{****}l{****}l -> 12TeB

Even at a beginning of every fight i can generate up to 12TeB in an instant. Thanks to CB which generates 2Chi and 2TeB +2TeB(Mastery).
2xCB -> 4 Chi + 8 TeB
then you use CE and you have up to 12TeB at the beginning of the fight.

My conclusion is that Mastery > Haste, Multistrike, Crit

PS: Sorry for my bad english

[Deleted]

Have you tried simming this? Does it do more dps than multistrike?

[Deleted]

no haven't. It is simple logic. If you manage to hold the 10er stack TeB Buff (60% dmg increase) then it is like 100% chance to Multistrike
btw i have not the time to make a whole theorycraft with my bad english. But our Mastery helps to maintain the 10er stack TeB Buff.
And 60% dmg increase overall all the time is too good to ignore.

[Deleted]

whole community says ww mastery is shit and needs a rework and u claim it's the best stat. you should think about ur thoughts or bring up some kind of evidence like logs or something. not sure if trolling or not..

[Kalsyrus]

Basically the op is correct that having a 100% uptime on TeB would equate to having 100% multistrike ASSUMING one did not have any multistrike stat to begin with. Now assuming that you have been able to get all of the mastery gear from Mythic Highmaul and no warforged or gem slots you would come out to roughly 74% mastery when fully buffed. (This is also assuming pandaren food buff.) Even in BRF we are unable to get to 100% mastery with the gear available. The most I was able to get when doing some napkin math was 91% mastery using Mythic Highmaul pieces to offset some slots where a mastery piece was unavailable from BRF. That was also forgoing T17 pieces excluding the hands which have mastery on them. If you were to choose to get the T17 4p bonus then you would be at 80% mastery. This means that you cannot guarantee 100% uptime with TeB at 10 stacks at our current gear level. It is possible and you have quite a decent chance of doing so but you are at the mercy of RNGesus. That all being said lets assume that you do maintain a 100% uptime on 10 stack TeB, you would only be gaining realistically 40% or so uptime on TeB depending on the fight. If you are to look through most logs of good WW Monk you will see that they generally are already at 50-60% uptime on this buff. The real question this comes down to is if that 40% increase on an RNG based ability worth more than the equilavent multistrike you are giving up. The only way to answer this is through SimCraft not through napkin math or "logic". I would have the sims done for this but as am I at work I will have to wait until I return home to do so. So please the concept is interesting but when someone asks for evidence do not blow them off by saying "logic says this is better so it is".

[Fiercon]

I WANT BOTTLED FURRY!!!

Is it a rabbit? A unicorn maybe! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD4C...95D69D&index=5

Sorry ... not contributing

[Babylonius]

As it's been said, it makes sense that having 100% uptime would be great but unless you're going to do all the math to determine whether giving up all the other stats to get that much mastery by hand then you need to sim this to check. Chances are it will show to be a dps decrease as it always has. Sims > logic when the math gets as complicated as it is.

[Kwaai]

I just tried simming it, and it seems like a loss. Granted I wasn't terribly thorough, but the difference between mastery and our other stats seems pretty large. Here's the gear setup I used for the mastery build (I just picked the highest ilvl piece with mastery on it in most situations, but I did sacrifice a few pieces for the 4 set):

head=helm_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115556,bonus_id=567
neck=engineers_grounded_gorget,id=113892,bonus_id=567,enchant=75mast
shoulders=mantle_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115559,bonus_id=567
back=cloak_of_delving_secrets,id=113929,bonus_id=567,enchant=100mast
chest=unrendable_wolfhide_robes,id=113951,bonus_id=567
wrists=squires_electroplated_bracers,id=113962,bonus_id=567
hands=handwraps_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115555,bonus_id=567
waist=belt_of_bloody_guts,id=113636,bonus_id=567
legs=legwraps_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115557,bonus_id=567
feet=treads_of_the_dark_hunt,id=113974,bonus_id=567
finger1=unexploded_explosive_shard,id=113877,bonus_id=567,enchant=50mast
finger2=spellbound_solium_band_of_fatal_strikes,id=118302,enchant=50mast
trinket1=meaty_dragonspine_trophy,id=118114,bonus_id=567
trinket2=beating_heart_of_the_mountain,id=113931,bonus_id=567
main_hand=head-lopper_skullscythe,id=119448,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_the_bleeding_hollow

Here's the set I tested it against:

head=helm_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115556,bonus_id=567
neck=darklight_necklace,id=113865,bonus_id=567,enchant=75mult
shoulders=mantle_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115559,bonus_id=567
back=drape_of_the_dark_hunt,id=113971,bonus_id=567,enchant=100mult
chest=vest_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115558,bonus_id=567
wrists=squires_electroplated_bracers,id=113962,bonus_id=567
hands=treacherous_palms,id=113832,bonus_id=567
waist=girdle_of_unconquered_glory,id=113907,bonus_id=567
legs=legwraps_of_the_somber_gaze,id=115557,bonus_id=567
feet=iron-flecked_sandals,id=119340,bonus_id=567
finger1=unexploded_explosive_shard,id=113877,bonus_id=567,enchant=50mult
finger2=spellbound_solium_band_of_fatal_strikes,id=118302,enchant=50mult
trinket1=meaty_dragonspine_trophy,id=118114,bonus_id=567
trinket2=beating_heart_of_the_mountain,id=113931,bonus_id=567
main_hand=talrak_bloody_skull_of_the_thunderlords,id=113939,bonus_id=567,enchant=mark_of_the_frostwolf

I'm not a simulation guru, but the non-mastery set came out about 7% ahead in both ChiX/Ascension and in Serenity/Brew. The mastery build had ~68% uptime on TEB and the normal one had ~58%. I didn't make any rotational changes between the two, but nothing immediately comes to mind to change. If someone else could make sure I'm not doing something really dumb that would be much appreciated.

Logically there's nothing magical about 100% uptime on TEB. It's not like a haste breakpoint or anything like that. The only relevant number I can think of is 60%, because that means you get a 10 stack for every FoF, but you don't need to stack mastery to get really close to that.

[Callimonk]

It's a loss because, sure, you'll have lots of TeB uptime, but you'll hit like a wet noodle.

No haste to do your rotation with.

No crit for 2x damage from hits.

Multistrike only from Mastery? Still a loss.

And to respond to your "just using logic", all theorycrafting starts out with a proposed hypothesis (ie, using logic). Almost every tier, we take a look at mastery to confirm that yes, it's still a terrible stat. Sadly, that hasn't changed since our last mastery change. No theorycrafter waits for SimC to poop out results - we kind of have to consider all aspects of things and test them.

[Hinalover]

And to respond to your "just using logic", all theorycrafting starts out with a proposed hypothesis (ie, using logic). Almost every tier, we take a look at mastery to confirm that yes, it's still a terrible stat. Sadly, that hasn't changed since our last mastery change. No theorycrafter waits for SimC to poop out results - we kind of have to consider all aspects of things and test them.

Even now, I'm testing Hypothesis after Hypothesis to see what it takes for Mastery to be even or as close as possible to the other stats. I've only just started testing, but as it stands, there is three options to improve the value of mastery

a) Increase the proc chance
b) Lower the number of chi to TeB from 4 -> 3
c) increase the damage from TeB

a) and b) would increase the uptime of TeB while c) would increase the damage from TeB. Increasing a) or b) would adversly affect Chi Explosion. Given that Chi Explosion already has ~70% uptime while Serenity/Hurricane Strike has ~55% uptime. Most likely the devs do not want that option because then it would be a constant buff instead of a powerful buff to use whenever you are ready for it.

So that leaves with option c) You could double or triple the value that TeB gives but then it would mean that we would have to re-evaluate the damage that WW Monks individual abilities do to compensate the damage buff from TeB. Even doing quick tests using an overwrite feature for spells ( See Theck's examples for Prot Pallies: http://www.sacredduty.net/2015/01/13...s-gonna-haste/ ), increasing the 6% bonus from TeB to say 18% per stack, that would bring the value of Mastery to within 5% behind Crit. It's still low but it would not be as big of a loss to use. However, this did increase the overall damage from 41k dps (BiS Mythic gear with Tier sets turned off) to 59k. That means we would have another set of nerfs to the individual abilities to compensate. A general description of what this would be described: "hitting like a wet noodle whenever you are not using TeB." Plus this would affect the other specs since their abilities are also tied.

Granted I'm going to test variations of a) and c) next but that just gives a taste on why evaluating mastery is so hard.

[rijn dael]

a) Increase the proc chance
b) Lower the number of chi to TeB from 4 -> 3
c) increase the damage from TeB

a) and b) would increase the uptime of TeB while c) would increase the damage from TeB. Increasing a) or b) would adversly affect Chi Explosion. Given that Chi Explosion already has ~70% uptime while Serenity/Hurricane Strike has ~55% uptime. Most likely the devs do not want that option because then it would be a constant buff instead of a powerful buff to use whenever you are ready for it.

a) also has the downside of having a very low cap - ie, if you make mastery equal to the others, you are talking about 4x current value? Given that we have 50% or so right now, while trying to dump the stat, we would end up at perma uptime cap pretty quick.

b) Not sure what you mean here?

c) Increasing the damage from TeB would be interesting, but it could get out of hand pretty quick, considering it would need to be 20% increase to just make it equal to other stats.
Napkin math -
-55-70% teb uptime (serenity vs cx)
-mastery is currently 1/3-1/4 of the other stats.
-1-1.5k mastery buffed in current gear

To make it equal, or at least close, we are talking a 3-4x increase in benefit from mastery. If we assume 3x benefit, and 50% uptime on TeB, it would need to be something like 3k-4.5k dps from that 1-1.5k mastery.

Given that is about 10% of current dps, and 50% current uptime, we need to come up with a rough breakdown of dps while teb is up vs teb is down, but I am going to say its 70-30 atm (tbh I have no idea where it actually sits, but it wouldn't be too much worse than this).

If its 70-30 damage done with and without teb, we would be talking something just short of 15% additive damage increase while in teb on top of the base to make it equal to other stats? They could nerf teb a bit to be in line with this - eg 50% base, + X% from mastery, so I kinda like it as a neat rework, but still.. by the end of the expac we would practically be worse than demo lock level of meaningless damage outside teb, and not even get a cool demon form?

[Saltycracker]

All this post says is mastery and chi explosion are good.

Op is correct.

[Hinalover]

b) Not sure what you mean here?

It takes 4 chi to generate 1 TeB. What I was suggesting was to bring that down to 3. However, at one point during Beta, it was set to 3 chi. However at the time, people were overflowing with TeB when they specced into Chi Explosion. At points where they were capping at 20 stacks even though they had TeB buff up.

[rijn dael]

It takes 4 chi to generate 1 TeB. What I was suggesting was to bring that down to 3. However, at one point during Beta, it was set to 3 chi. However at the time, people were overflowing with TeB when they specced into Chi Explosion. At points where they were capping at 20 stacks even though they had TeB buff up.

Ah, all I could think of was you meant reduce the requirement based off mastery or something, and that didn't really make sense to me.

Thinking through random crazy idea - make mastery into an 'aoe' stat, similar to how destro locks reduce their FnB penalty through mastery, make mastery reduce the penalty on SEF? It could similarly have a small ratio to straight up damage at the same time, so it wouldn't be a dead stat on single target.

Don't know that I like it as a direction (further pushing us into aoe) - but you could accompany it with a reasonable single target buff, and a fairly significant whack at either SEF ratio's or CX, meaning to perform ideal aoe damage, we have to gear it at the expense of single target damage in the same fight.

I can't see them doing anything major like that either, but since its practically a dead stat as things stand, I also can't see how they can ignore it for the entire expansion... even a flat % damage done placeholder replacement pegging it similar to versatility till they can come back to it would be fine :/

[Kwaai]

I'd like to see mastery interact with our other stats. I think Tiger Strikes is a really cool stat, so maybe have mastery cause a Tiger Strikes-esque buff for all of our other stats?

All this post says is mastery and chi explosion are good.

Op is correct.

Huh? Mastery is still bad for ChiX.

[Saltycracker]

Mastery is not a bad stat. Its far from the best.

Basically the op examined mastery and chex in a vaccum and reported their findings.

[Hinalover]

Mastery is not a bad stat. Its far from the best.

Basically the op examined mastery and chex in a vaccum and reported their findings.

ChiEx does increase the valuing of Mastery due to the interaction of the 4 chi and 3 chi usage. But like you said, the OP didn't take into account talenting outside of ChiEx where Mastery is not as utilized.

To make Mastery good in general, you would basically need to buff the baseline Mastery spell co-efficient from 2.5% to 3.75% and the amount of damage and healing done from TeB to 12% per stack (up from 6%). Downside to this is that you would need to nerf all damage by ~25% to compensate for the changes made to make mastery work. This would force a "hitting like a wet noodle while not having TeB up" situation, which none of us really want.

[Kwaai]

Mastery is not a bad stat. Its far from the best.

Basically the op examined mastery and chex in a vaccum and reported their findings.

I'm unconvinced. I don't think Brew is better than Ascension for a ChiEx spec, and he's arguing that, as well as giving us 30% more mastery than we actually have. Even then, if we do reach 100% TEB uptime, so what? You can already be intelligent about TEB with procs, and 60% is what's required to have a 10 stack for every FoF. Why is 100% special? I actually did sim it, with a mastery build vs a non-mastery one, and the results are pretty clear. If you think otherwise tell us what to sim so we can test it out. I'd be thrilled if mastery wasn't garbage.

I tried simming both Serenity and ChiEx stacking mastery vs not, and not won by a significant margin in both cases.