Disc's Bubbles out of control

[BigSquirrel]

to the OP, You may want to learn how to play your class a little better.... I am a 664 resto druid and i can absolutely outheal disc priests when shit hits the fan... disc is only good when a majority of the damage is single target.. and even if they blanket the raid in shields, they really need a raid healer to help restore the health to damaged raid members.

All of this being said, why would someone care if a certain class was OP or not?... i have never been aware of a situation in which, outside of mythic competitive raiding, a raid consists of all "disc priests" because they are "op"....?

[Daez]

Not literally, but your raid gets far more out of getting 1 disc than getting 1 holy/paladin/shaman/druid/monk. Even in Foundry you have mechanics like Acid Torrent and Crippling Suplex that basically scream "Get a disc!"

Yes, maybe, but that is one disc. Only one, there is not point to EVER have two. That means, if you are lucky enough to be the only disc in your guild you are majorly in demand. If your guild has more than one disc you better learn how to play holy if there is a disc with more pull.

- - - Updated - - -

If you're "pressing only two buttons" as a Disc priest, you're doing it horribly wrong.

Everything I have read makes it sound like shield and CoW shield are the only things worth pressing on a regular basis.

[Deleted]

Raids specifically bring Disc Priests for raids where CoW can trivialize a mechanic. Do raids bring Holy Priests over Disc for anything in particular?

Disc having access to CoW may not be that big a deal for the other healers, but tell that to the Holy Priest who can't progress on certain fights because they're needed as Disc for CoW.

That's like whining about not beeing able to play frost as a DK because Unholy has more DPS. This particuliar issue only exists when progressing on cutting edge content when you want to squeeze the most out of your raid comp. Fact is, if you really are on a hardcore progressing guild, beeing forced into one spec is happening to almost everyone (It's happening even more for Dpsers). That's how it is most of the time.
Not in a hardcore guild ? Every encounter can be dealt with just fine without a disc assuming people are decent players.

Even in a non hardcore guild, If I was RL having to choose between a priest who's willing to play both spec to help the team on a fight we're stuck on ; and one not wanting to have anything to do with anything related to one specific spec... Well guess who's gonna get benched...

[Daez]

That's not what prevention means... Disc is the only spec that can completely negate 1shot mechanics on a whim. Taking damage and then healing it is COMPLETELY different from not taking it at all.

No, prevention means you cast it before the damage is taken in order to mitigate part or all of it. It is EXACTLY what hots are. I have already posted that shields are better at doing this, but they are still prevention heals. Maybe the solution is to buff hots not nerf shields.

[Thirteen]

Yes, maybe, but that is one disc. Only one, there is not point to EVER have two. That means, if you are lucky enough to be the only disc in your guild you are majorly in demand. If your guild has more than one disc you better learn how to play holy if there is a disc with more pull..

Debatable. You can run 2 discs with 0 problems. And this all means that you, in a mythic raid, have 19 free raid slots, because the 20th will ALWAYS be a discipline priest. In a game with 35 specs, you are guaranteeing one spec a raid slot every single time, because you can't afford not to do it. It also means that you shouldn't ever play holy, unless there's already another disc priest in the group. The current state of discipline makes holy completely unviable, just because a holy priest can always respec to disc and be better off.

Even in a non hardcore guild, If I was RL having to choose between a priest who's willing to play both spec to help the team on a fight we're stuck on ; and one not wanting to have anything to do with anything related to one specific spec... Well guess who's gonna get benched...

He'll never have to choose because there's nothing to choose. Disc is always better.

That's like whining about not beeing able to play frost as a DK because Unholy has more DPS.

It's not the same. There's no encounter where you HAVE TO Death Coil something. But all mythic encounters have mechanics that do everything short of actually saying "You MUST PWS/CoW this person if you want to see this boss die".

[Isheria]

The solution is to make shields behave more similarly. I already made the following suggestion to blizzard but i doubt it will ever happen. It will fix the eternal war of shields vs heals.

- All absorption effects now last 10 sec down from 15 and decay over time at a rate of 10% per sec.

[Daez]

It also means that you shouldn't ever play holy, unless there's already another disc priest in the group. The current state of discipline makes holy completely unviable, just because a holy priest can always respec to disc and be better off.

I will actually completely agree with this statement.

[Deleted]

Tbh as Disc and priest are right now. They might remove this class from game all together.

[Thirteen]

The solution is to make shields behave more similarly. I already made the following suggestion to blizzard but i doubt it will ever happen. It will fix the eternal war of shields vs heals.

- All absorption effects now last 10 sec down from 15 and decay over time at a rate of 10% per sec.

I'm completely okay with this. But there's no chance it's going to happen whatsoever.

[mag07]

Can we have a discussion on how ridiculous disc priest shielding has become? I thought they were nerfing the shields why does disc still rely on power word shield to do the bulk of it's healing? I think the end level talent in the disc tree where yo cast to shield was a good design move from Blizzard's perspective but I think they still need to do something about power word shield. Adding a cast time to the ability should see it's skill level increased and it's relative OPness decreased?

Next time you decide to flame a spec without knowing anything about it, do some research Bad players randomly spam PWS, usually coupled with Words of Mending for some awesome meter whoring all the while calmly watching the tank go splat, over and over again. Good players time their shields, pick WoM or CoP depending on encounter and raid healer composition, and do the job that's required - timing their shield blankets to minimize incoming damage so other healers don't need to deal with stupid levels of 'hurtiness' across the board.
Disc is a bit on the dull side, yet just as any other spec in game, no matter how dumbed down from previous reincarnations, it requires a certain amount of encounter knowledge and timing to heal with it effectively.

Less pointless staring at Skada, and more at logs will give you a better image of the spec. PWS spam is no different then Rejuv spam yet I don't see many people whining about resto druids. Is it some sort of an obsession? I can competently whore meters on both classes, or I can choose to effectively heal. Tools are but a part of game play, what you do with them is the key.

Sure, would love to see more usage of PoH, PoM (outside of the 100 passive), just as I would love to see a better implementation of Genesis. I'd also love to go back to having to properly manage my mana, given interesting tools to achieve it, even if it means various synergies between different classes. Sadly Blizz is chopping utility in favour of pure oomph. Petition to change that, I'll sign it

And last, but not least, no healer should ever get into another's way with proper UI setup - If you can't see incoming heals/absorbs from other raiders and you pointlessly waste global cds on people that have been hotted/shielded up to their arses, then it really is your own fault. There are tools out there to provide this kind of information. It's been years now that Blizzard designs everything around third party addons, not their own basic UI - time to accept it and adjust. Not too mention elementary things like basic healing assignments which very efficiently put a stop to the unhealthy and rather pointless HPS competition.

[Deleted]

Same thing has been said, over the years of shamans (mana tide, group healing), holy paladins (tank healing), restoration druids (lifebloom) and recently of monks (melee healing). So, in that case, maybe you are better off having one of every healer. The only people that could legitimately make any argument about the suckitude opedness of discipline priest would be holy priests then because if you choose one of each heal class you have more arguable room for disc than you do holy.

This. Seriously, having a spec be able to counter a mechanic on each fight is not an issue!

The only legitimate complaint is that Discipline is, typically, more valuable than Holy - especially if you are the only Priest healer in the raid group. The solution would be to move a substantial amount of Discipline's healing out of absorbs and into direct heals.

That probably isn't going to happen though as Blizzard seem to be sliding with their ability to maintain an interesting game that also has a decent amount of balance. However, ranting at the people that play Discipline, isn't going to fix Blizzard's internal design issues.

Less pointless staring at Skada, and more at logs will give you a better image of the spec. PWS spam is no different then Rejuv spam yet I don't see many people whining about resto druids. Is it some sort of an obsession? I can competently whore meters on both classes, or I can choose to effectively heal. Tools are but a part of game play, what you do with them is the key.

PW:S is worse than Rejuvenation spam. Waaaaaaay worse. Mainly because Blizzard decided that Discipline should be reliant on one ability and that is totally fine, cool and awesome.

[mag07]

The solution is to make shields behave more similarly. I already made the following suggestion to blizzard but i doubt it will ever happen. It will fix the eternal war of shields vs heals.

- All absorption effects now last 10 sec down from 15 and decay over time at a rate of 10% per sec.

That would actually have a completely opposite effect to what I imagine you are trying to achieve. There would be very little point to preemptive shielding, everyone would just go down the mad PWS spam route, not helping to actually heal/prevent raid wide damage at all lol. These are absorbs we are talking about, they need proper timing for full benefit. You need a full GCD to cast one PWS - by the time you'd be on your 5th cast the first shields would be near useless. What would be the point? It would only encourage more bad play making Disc practically useless for anything other then tank healing.

[Deleted]

I was attacked by a priests bubble once! This is serious.

[Deleted]

That would actually have a completely opposite effect to what I imagine you are trying to achieve. There would be very little point to preemptive shielding, everyone would just go down the mad PWS spam route, not helping to actually heal/prevent raid wide damage at all lol. These are absorbs we are talking about, they need proper timing for full benefit. You need a full GCD to cast one PWS - by the time you'd be on your 5th cast the first shields would be near useless. What would be the point? It would only encourage more bad play making Disc practically useless for anything other then tank healing.

Yes. A better solution would be a charge system on PW:S so that pre-shielding is still possible but following that period, Discipline must either rely on other abilities such as FH, PoH, PoM, HN, L90s, CoW and even Atonement. Buff direct healing to compensate and not only is Discipline's terrible play style improved but complaints regarding shields are reduced. Everyone is a winner, cake all round, pop the champagne and kick back and watch the latest episode of Girls.

[Thirteen]

Everyone is a winner, cake all round, pop the champagne and kick back and watch the latest episode of Girls.

Only if there's rimming in it.

This. Seriously, having a spec be able to counter a mechanic on each fight is not an issue!

Well, disc's perspective I guess :x I'm sure if all bosses had a mechanic that says "This spells kills you unless you have Shield Wall up" would make all non-warriors complain.

The only legitimate complaint is that Discipline is, typically, more valuable than Holy - especially if you are the only Priest healer in the raid group. The solution would be to move a substantial amount of Discipline's healing out of absorbs and into direct heals.

That probably isn't going to happen though as Blizzard seem to be sliding with their ability to maintain an interesting game that also has a decent amount of balance. However, ranting at the people that play Discipline, isn't going to fix Blizzard's internal design issues.

So how do you fix a problem like disc? It's an ongoing problem that has existed for half a decade, and the "temporary" fix that's been in effect is having disc just be overpowered. Just plain "We don't know what to do at this point, so just let em be better than everyone else".

[laalipop]

That would actually have a completely opposite effect to what I imagine you are trying to achieve. There would be very little point to preemptive shielding, everyone would just go down the mad PWS spam route, not helping to actually heal/prevent raid wide damage at all lol. These are absorbs we are talking about, they need proper timing for full benefit. You need a full GCD to cast one PWS - by the time you'd be on your 5th cast the first shields would be near useless. What would be the point? It would only encourage more bad play making Disc practically useless for anything other then tank healing.

It would encourage precision with DA and SS (I feel like it would make SS borderline mandatory for raid healing) and it would further define talents deciding our group role. PW:S would take on a more single target/small group role along with CoW. If they did that, and left the potency of absorbs exactly as they are, all it would do is raise the skillcap on Disc.

But then the question becomes...what do we do when we're not spamming? Sit there and regen from more PoH spam?

[Deleted]

Only if there's rimming in it.

Oh god. That episode. Ick. Not cool. Not that I have anything against that! It was just done so tastelessly (YES THAT IS A DELIBERATE CHOICE OF WORDS)

Well, disc's perspective I guess :x I'm sure if all bosses had a mechanic that says "This spells kills you unless you have Shield Wall up" would make all non-warriors complain.

But there isn't a mechanic like that. There isn't something in the game at the moment which hard counters the lack of an item, class or spec. There was in the past but that hasn't been the case for a while. There are mechanics made easier by the presence of certain abilities but that doesn't mean that other solutions are not viable.

So how do you fix a problem like disc? It's an ongoing problem that has existed for half a decade, and the "temporary" fix that's been in effect is having disc just be overpowered. Just plain "We don't know what to do at this point, so just let em be better than everyone else".

I outlined something above! Moving more of Discipline's healing into direct heals and adding a charge system to PW:S would be a good start. Actually having a healing and damage model which isn't a pile of spam-fest, spike-ridden, USE COOLDOWNS HERE OR ELSE garbage would also be massively useful. Blizzard talked the talk when discussing WoD - more triage without the mana pains, doubled health pools, decreased absorbs - then put on their favouritest pair of fancy red high heels (with bows cause bows are awesome) without practice and stumbled at the first step. Not good.

Just plain "We don't know what to do at this point, so just let em be better than everyone else".

But that really isn't the situation at the moment. Is Discipline too good occasionally? Yes! Definitely! But WotLK Druid, TBC Shaman or SoO Discipline this is not.

[ceddya]

That's basically what I'm saying.

Sorry, must have quoted the wrong person. I agree with what you're saying.

That's like whining about not beeing able to play frost as a DK because Unholy has more DPS. This particuliar issue only exists when progressing on cutting edge content when you want to squeeze the most out of your raid comp. Fact is, if you really are on a hardcore progressing guild, beeing forced into one spec is happening to almost everyone (It's happening even more for Dpsers). That's how it is most of the time.
Not in a hardcore guild ? Every encounter can be dealt with just fine without a disc assuming people are decent players.

Except Disc has similar numbers (actually, similar upper bound and much better lower bound healing) and better utility. I don't see why we should maintain the status quo of poor balancing. There is a similar issue with H-Pals, in the sense that they fill a niche all by themselves like Disc does. Meanwhile, you have the 4 throughput healers who fill the same 'output niche' competing for the remaining 2-3 slots. If we're discussing good game design, it would be nice if healing utility was a factor for spec balancing.

[Thirteen]

But there isn't a mechanic like that. There isn't something in the game at the moment which hard counters the lack of an item, class or spec. There was in the past but that hasn't been the case for a while. There are mechanics made easier by the presence of certain abilities but that doesn't mean that other solutions are not viable.

It has. And I'm just as appalled as you are (probably/hopefully).

But also, just look at the bosses in BRF. They don't say "You have to have PWS here" but that one spell makes the entire encounter ten times easier. Eg. Oregorger: Having a disc priest throw CoW/PWS every once in a while can literally spare your raid of millions of damage. What other class can do that? And that's just on normal. On mythic it'll probably be impossible to do without a disc. PosPosPos mentioned it was changed, but Crippling Suplex can very literally 1shot your tank unless you have PWS on them, or a major cooldown. A different (and hypothetical) but similar scenario is this: A mob spawns on a boss that has 20X HP. It has to die in 10 seconds, but no raid can ever do more than 1.5X DPS without bloodlust, but the mob takes +2000% spellstorm damage. The solution: Either bring a boomkin, or use bloodlust and be gimped for the rest of the fight. There's no choice here.

edit: Oh, and this hypothetical situation - every boss has this add.

Except Disc has similar numbers (actually, similar upper bound and much better lower bound healing) and better utility. I don't see why we should maintain the status quo of poor balancing. There is a similar issue with H-Pals, in the sense that they fill a niche all by themselves like Disc does. Meanwhile, you have the 4 throughput healers who fill the same 'output niche' competing for the remaining 2-3 slots. If we're discussing good game design, it would be nice if healing utility was a factor for spec balancing.

This is the best way of phrasing it. There exists a niche in raiding that can only be filled by disc priests. And we're supposed to be fine with that.

[PosPosPos]

Sorry, must have quoted the wrong person. I agree with what you're saying.



Except Disc has similar numbers (actually, similar upper bound and much better lower bound healing) and better utility. I don't see why we should maintain the status quo of poor balancing. There is a similar issue with H-Pals, in the sense that they fill a niche all by themselves like Disc does. Meanwhile, you have the 4 throughput healers who fill the same 'output niche' competing for the remaining 2-3 slots. If we're discussing good game design, it would be nice if healing utility was a factor for spec balancing.

Or just officially balance encounters around having a disc and holy pally, then impose a strict diminishing return on stacking more than one of each like with disc and weakened soul - there's nothing wrong with that because as healers you should be competing against the encounter, not each other.

There's really no need for inter-healer balance in raid content.