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  1. #41
    In defense of DoC, I feel running a DoC build doesn't really focus on DoC's healing.

    The main healing you would do is 100% from the SotF-WG combo, and possibly a few Rejuv HoTs thrown out if in dire need. The DoC healing is not meant to be a triage heal used on a target sitting at 10%, it's meant to be a "filler" heal that might hit someone sitting at around 80%, just to top him off without any mana needed.

    Without DoC, you would still be casting Wrath a lot anyway with the SotF build, but you would not have the benefit of freely topping off mid-high health players. You would gain either HotW which might be some extra DPS (partially countered by DoC's Wrath buff), and maybe a super-tranq later on, if it's needed that's great, but it might just end up being overkill, or you would gain NV which is useless without heavy Rejuv usage.

    I'm not going to say I know directly whether HotW or DoC is better, that's why I suggested both as possibilities, but really, if DoC saves all of the healers mana early on, then that may just be enough to counter HotW's healing boost at the end.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganess View Post
    You are missing the reality of what progress is and seem to be focusing only on numbers, which is for granted if you spend more time posting on MMO than you do progressing.
    I don't think it's quite fair to take direct shots at people just for disagreeing here. I don't think Sprucelee is as progressed as you are, but he isn't really from a total bottom-barrel guild either.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganess View Post
    You are missing the reality of what progress is and seem to be focusing only on numbers, which is for granted if you spend more time posting on MMO than you do progressing. Remember that the original post was written before BRF mythic even started so you are late for the bus on this one in terms of my ranks. It is not unheard of that many high logs on several fights have favoured the DoC playstyle. The lack of "control" you imply is incredibly biased towards rejuv, having total control. And tell me in the reality of progress, when does it matter if your lack of control is when the raid is 90% anyway. Ah right, because those numbers matter in that situation by your logic.

    You can disagree as much as you want, but i've noticed you around here as all bark and no bite. You are missing the whole concept of what the healing role actually is and focusing on the numbers.

    As I have shown, my recommendations are very versatile in what may be needed on the encounter and I can tell you for a fact that several druids have had success in the DoC build. If you are too stubborn to even change the way you think I feel sorry for your ignorance. Your negative testing on DoC was most likely because you were playing it wrong.
    The reality is you chose a much weaker DPS talent on an admitted DPS check, those numbers do not lie.

    As for the ad hominem, I excuse you for your poor manners

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    The reality is you chose a much weaker DPS talent on an admitted DPS check, those numbers do not lie.

    As for the ad hominem, I excuse you for your poor manners
    Are you in my raid group? Can you see from my point of view how I am to go about my progress? No. Missing the concept once again.

    Again all bark and no bite, in relevance to the argument. I apologise for your misjudgement and I am sorry you took that personally. The contents of your arguments are all air, in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    In defense of DoC, I feel running a DoC build doesn't really focus on DoC's healing.

    The main healing you would do is 100% from the SotF-WG combo, and possibly a few Rejuv HoTs thrown out if in dire need. The DoC healing is not meant to be a triage heal used on a target sitting at 10%, it's meant to be a "filler" heal that might hit someone sitting at around 80%, just to top him off without any mana needed.

    Without DoC, you would still be casting Wrath a lot anyway with the SotF build, but you would not have the benefit of freely topping off mid-high health players. You would gain either HotW which might be some extra DPS (partially countered by DoC's Wrath buff), and maybe a super-tranq later on, if it's needed that's great, but it might just end up being overkill, or you would gain NV which is useless without heavy Rejuv usage.

    I'm not going to say I know directly whether HotW or DoC is better, that's why I suggested both as possibilities, but really, if DoC saves all of the healers mana early on, then that may just be enough to counter HotW's healing boost at the end.

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    I don't think it's quite fair to take direct shots at people just for disagreeing here. I don't think Sprucelee is as progressed as you are, but he isn't really from a total bottom-barrel guild either.
    And indeed a fair point in regards to @Sprucelee. I don't delve into MMO champion too often but I feel there are a few ego's in here who nitpick at those .1% details for the sake of it.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    In defense of DoC, I feel running a DoC build doesn't really focus on DoC's healing.

    The main healing you would do is 100% from the SotF-WG combo, and possibly a few Rejuv HoTs thrown out if in dire need. The DoC healing is not meant to be a triage heal used on a target sitting at 10%, it's meant to be a "filler" heal that might hit someone sitting at around 80%, just to top him off without any mana needed.

    Without DoC, you would still be casting Wrath a lot anyway with the SotF build, but you would not have the benefit of freely topping off mid-high health players. You would gain either HotW which might be some extra DPS (partially countered by DoC's Wrath buff), and maybe a super-tranq later on, if it's needed that's great, but it might just end up being overkill, or you would gain NV which is useless without heavy Rejuv usage.

    I'm not going to say I know directly whether HotW or DoC is better, that's why I suggested both as possibilities, but really, if DoC saves all of the healers mana early on, then that may just be enough to counter HotW's healing boost at the end.

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    I don't think it's quite fair to take direct shots at people just for disagreeing here. I don't think Sprucelee is as progressed as you are, but he isn't really from a total bottom-barrel guild either.
    I still have yet to see a real argument for DoC that I can really put stock in. The OP did lackluster DPS, and still went oom with 40 seconds remaining (on a fairly short fight), so if either of those were the goals, then I still do not see the justification. The amount of healing it did itself, all to support 50% over-healing via SotF+WG (which obviously was forced into inferno slices on CD, one downside of SotF builds) also makes me skeptical.

    Also, wrath and moonfire really amount to miniscule DPS, so I do not agree with it being part of a SotF build (regarldes of DoC).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loganess View Post
    Are you in my raid group? Can you see from my point of view how I am to go about my progress? No. Missing the concept once again.

    Again all bark and no bite, in relevance to the argument. I apologise for your misjudgement and I am sorry you took that personally. The contents of your arguments are all air, in my opinion.

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    And indeed a fair point in regards to @Sprucelee. I don't delve into MMO champion too often but I feel there are a few ego's in here who nitpick at those .1% details for the sake of it.
    If you do not feel like debating topics on forums, I would advise not posting threads/guides? It is only natural for me to dig into logs, and you seemed to invite that by posting armory links and bragging about ranks etc... I am not being hostile at all... relax

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    I still have yet to see a real argument for DoC that I can really put stock in. The OP did lackluster DPS, and still went oom with 40 seconds remaining (on a fairly short fight), so if either of those were the goals, then I still do not see the justification. The amount of healing it did itself, all to support 50% over-healing via SotF+WG (which obviously was forced into inferno slices on CD, one downside of SotF builds) also makes me skeptical.

    Also, wrath and moonfire really amount to miniscule DPS, so I do not agree with it being part of a SotF build (regarldes of DoC).

    - - - Updated - - -



    If you do not feel like debating topics on forums, I would advise not posting threads/guides? It is only natural for me to dig into logs, and you seemed to invite that by posting armory links and bragging about ranks etc... I am not being hostile at all... relax
    You are again missing the concept though, logs do not matter in the reality of progress. If I have to type "missing the concept" one more time I might just go to bed.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganess View Post
    You are again missing the concept though, logs do not matter in the reality of progress. If I have to type "missing the concept" one more time I might just go to bed.
    Going OoM 40 seconds before the end of a fight does not matter the the "reality of progress"?

    Doing less DPS than 80% of most druids on a DPS check your guild barely passed, needing to go into the enrage, does not matter to the "reality of progress"?

    OK

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    Going OoM 40 seconds before the end of a fight does not matter the the "reality of progress"?

    Doing less DPS than 80% of most druids on a DPS check your guild barely passed, needing to go into the enrage, does not matter to the "reality of progress"?

    OK
    Again evaluating logs to draw conclusions on a build. You are a brick wall aren't you, with no consideration for anything else around you.

    I died on Hans'gar and Franzok, did incredibly subpar DPS and HPS because of it. I was using Tree build and so does that make the tree build bad? This is what we like to call an external factor that logs can never evaluate.

    Please close warcraft logs for the sake of your own well-being, because it seems like you worship it as a god.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganess View Post
    Again evaluating logs to draw conclusions on a build. You are a brick wall aren't you, with no consideration for anything else around you.

    I died on Hans'gar and Franzok, did incredibly subpar DPS and HPS because of it. I was using Tree build and so does that make the tree build bad? This is what we like to call an external factor that logs can never evaluate.

    Please close warcraft logs for the sake of your own well-being, because it seems like you worship it as a god.
    "I have fabricated this guide from my own choices that have lead to many 99th percentile ranks during progress"
    Your words!

    Anyway, got to go. May your wraths hit their mark! GL on operator.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    I still have yet to see a real argument for DoC that I can really put stock in. The OP did lackluster DPS, and still went oom with 40 seconds remaining (on a fairly short fight), so if either of those were the goals, then I still do not see the justification. The amount of healing it did itself, all to support 50% over-healing via SotF+WG (which obviously was forced into inferno slices on CD, one downside of SotF builds) also makes me skeptical.
    Right, but generally running OOM means poor usage of SotF and WG, not due to the usage of DoC. So maybe running with a Rejuv build would have helped (and, given conditions, it may well be the correct use for Gruul), but otherwise there's little to say about DoC with the Gruul log.

    He just, so to speak, fucked up his WG usage - as you pointed out (I didn't look at the log itself, so I'm just going on what you posted). Given that, he'd have done just as poorly taking HotW or NV with his SotF build that specific pull.

    Due to my guild's incredible slowness, I haven't even pulled Gruul on Mythic yet, but still this looks like more of a debate between WG and Rejuv builds, less between HotW/NV and DoC. Since the fight seems very Butcher-like (with some differences, namely an intermission phase), maybe the Rejuv build is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    Also, wrath and moonfire really amount to miniscule DPS, so I do not agree with it being part of a SotF build (regarldes of DoC).
    The idea of using Wrath is more as an alternative to doing nothing, less for its DPS/HPS (from DoC) alone. Since you'd be doing nothing anyway (to get mana back), why not use a 0 mana ability?

    This is new from the past expansions where even Wrath would cost mana, so back then it was conceivable there's cases where your best option could have been to stand and /dance.
    Last edited by nightfalls; 2015-02-17 at 04:00 AM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Sprucelee View Post
    Your words!

    Anyway, got to go. May your wraths hit their mark! GL on operator.
    I have fabricated this guide from my own choices that have lead to many 99th percentile ranks during progress (not that healer ranks mean anything).
    Hey you missed a bit Tad selective now aren't we?

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by nightfalls View Post
    Right, but generally running OOM means poor usage of SotF and WG, not due to the usage of DoC. So maybe running with a Rejuv build would have helped (and, given conditions, it may well be the correct use for Gruul), but otherwise there's little to say about DoC with the Gruul log.

    He just, so to speak, fucked up his WG usage - as you pointed out (I didn't look at the log itself, so I'm just going on what you posted). Given that, he'd have done just as poorly taking HotW or NV with his SotF build that specific pull.

    Due to my guild's incredible slowness, I haven't even pulled Gruul on Mythic yet, but still this looks like more of a debate between WG and Rejuv builds, less between HotW/NV and DoC. Since the fight seems very Butcher-like (with some differences, namely an intermission phase), maybe the Rejuv build is better.



    The idea of using Wrath is more as an alternative to doing nothing, less for its DPS/HPS (from DoC) alone. Since you'd be doing nothing anyway (to get mana back), why not use a 0 mana ability?

    This is new from the past expansions where even Wrath would cost mana, so back then it was conceivable there's cases where your best option could have been to stand and /dance.
    But then I'd have to ask you this:

    What is the gain from using Wrath with DoC against using wrath Without DoC?

    At the point where you need healing you cannot spam wrath, at a point where you dont need healing but the raid is not topped off you could also just rejuv a few players or let other healers heal them up more effectively while you spam wrath (without DoC). Doc is never gonna have a big impact on a fight, while HOTW will have that.

    The only fight I've seen worth using DoC yet is Mythic Operator, This is only because all dmg is predicatable and can be handled with another CD. Its never long periods if heavy dmg so using HOTW made no sense. NV even less for that matter. There is a lot of downtime where you can just spam wrath, why not take the extra 20% dmg. This accually made me do more than HOTW nuking on pull. (I havent tried mythic maidens,blast furnance, blackhand ofc).



    All the other fights HOTW is better (imo)

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Colix View Post
    But then I'd have to ask you this:

    What is the gain from using Wrath with DoC against using wrath Without DoC?
    Actually DoC has a great syenergy with SoTF because you use wrath top off people sitting at 95% for free before boss casts his aoe spike skills so your wild growth isnt wasted on overhealing them and goes straight to people who actually need it.


    My main argument for playstyle proposed by Loganess is that most bosses in brf have regular 15-20 s aoe spikes which is ideal for sotf. On the other hand on most fights it is hard for me to find a proper time to cast raid cd more often than 1,5mins so that can be easily covered by your tranq and one other healer cd.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by revente View Post
    Actually DoC has a great syenergy with SoTF because you use wrath top off people sitting at 95% for free before boss casts his aoe spike skills so your wild growth isnt wasted on overhealing them and goes straight to people who actually need it.


    My main argument for playstyle proposed by Loganess is that most bosses in brf have regular 15-20 s aoe spikes which is ideal for sotf. On the other hand on most fights it is hard for me to find a proper time to cast raid cd more often than 1,5mins so that can be easily covered by your tranq and one other healer cd.

    Assuming you're not healing alone, healers like monks or holy priests will top the raid off, for you to "waste" a talent on it is hardly worth if you ask me.

    But then again if you are the only AOE healer, then fair enough I could see that it can work, But in general I dislike SoTF during progression just because it costs so much mana to trigger. The heavy rejuv style with wild growth on demand when you're falling behind feels a lot better for every boss I've encountered on mythic. And what I've seen from Maidens and Blast Furnance it looks the same.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Colix View Post
    Assuming you're not healing alone, healers like monks or holy priests will top the raid off, for you to "waste" a talent on it is hardly worth if you ask me.

    But then again if you are the only AOE healer, then fair enough I could see that it can work, But in general I dislike SoTF during progression just because it costs so much mana to trigger. The heavy rejuv style with wild growth on demand when you're falling behind feels a lot better for every boss I've encountered on mythic. And what I've seen from Maidens and Blast Furnance it looks the same.
    As you can see by my guides to each of the bosses i've downed so far, there is a fair split between whether we are the burst healer or the longevity healer. What i'm trying to achieve by this thread is the introduction to the longevity build that some druids still don't know yet and how exactly to play it. Druid has been the Tree + rejuv + wild growth healer for too long and i'm seeing a lot of druids these days play nothing else because 'that's how it's always been'.

    The mana cost to trigger SoTF should be largely irrelevant as that is the point of DoC, giving you free healing and something to do to fuel all your mana expenditure into that wild growth. And especially if fights are synergising with small 10 second bursts of damage.

    Again the mindset that if the raid is 50% they are in a dangerous position is a bad one. Our job is to keep people alive, rather than simply 'heal people'. You are falling behind if people are dead, not if the raid is low, and in many situations this isn't the case, especially if rejuv takes 18 seconds to give out its full healing.

    And if the raid is topped off you shouldn't even consider any evaluation for that situation. As you are almost as useful as specced into nothing.

  15. #55
    SotF is nothing new and has been a strong talent since it was added....

    You seem to have this preconceived notion that everyone is using ToL "just because", and not because of testing and TC. There is nothing really new or novel about the SotF+WG play-style. As for DoC, I do not consider it "linked" to a SotF build, and just a bad choice period, but we do not need to re-hash that

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Loganess View Post
    As you can see by my guides to each of the bosses i've downed so far, there is a fair split between whether we are the burst healer or the longevity healer. What i'm trying to achieve by this thread is the introduction to the longevity build that some druids still don't know yet and how exactly to play it. Druid has been the Tree + rejuv + wild growth healer for too long and i'm seeing a lot of druids these days play nothing else because 'that's how it's always been'.

    The mana cost to trigger SoTF should be largely irrelevant as that is the point of DoC, giving you free healing and something to do to fuel all your mana expenditure into that wild growth. And especially if fights are synergising with small 10 second bursts of damage.

    Again the mindset that if the raid is 50% they are in a dangerous position is a bad one. Our job is to keep people alive, rather than simply 'heal people'. You are falling behind if people are dead, not if the raid is low, and in many situations this isn't the case, especially if rejuv takes 18 seconds to give out its full healing.

    And if the raid is topped off you shouldn't even consider any evaluation for that situation. As you are almost as useful as specced into nothing.
    Can you explain what you do on certain mythic fights with DoC and SoTF and how your healing team heals up the dmg?

  17. #57
    Check original post

  18. #58
    Can you post some logs to back up your claims? I am interested to see something quantifiable. Until then, there is nothing to see here.

    You can say logs don't tell the whole story all you want, but if you know how to read them, they tell everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Okard View Post
    they took out chill of the throne, if you havent looked. Youre going to do 30% less than youre used to.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Leetbeartank View Post
    Can you post some logs to back up your claims? I am interested to see something quantifiable. Until then, there is nothing to see here.

    You can say logs don't tell the whole story all you want, but if you know how to read them, they tell everything.
    That sounds brilliant, but the reality of progress is that by the time everything can be quantitatively backed up and completely shown/"proved" with logs and ridiculous per-fight theorycrafting the "progress" is already over.

    This OP is a favor to people who are actually trying the fights now and don't want to wait until a full guide is released in weeks/months.

    So yeah, it's going to be limited to discussion and yes, speculation, naturally.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Leetbeartank View Post
    Can you post some logs to back up your claims? I am interested to see something quantifiable. Until then, there is nothing to see here.

    You can say logs don't tell the whole story all you want, but if you know how to read them, they tell everything.
    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../34570/latest/

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