Small Guide to BRF Heroic + Mythic Progress

[nightfalls]

Alright, more serious discussion time, since I think this thread can actually be worth it.

Stats: I'd still value versatility lower, per the comments I made in another thread here. Even if you count the damage reduction, it is minimal, and only on yourself (versus the raid). As a druid, with high mobility + Displacer Beast we are (in general) one of the best classes at avoiding damage - which lowers the value of Versatility (versus ability to heal others) even more. While our personal CD isn't the best, it's still a somewhat reliable way to mitigate unavoidable damage.

In 6.1, whenever it launches, Multistrike should catapult above Critical Strike as it will apply to DoC there (it does not on Live, per the OP).

However, already I still place it above Crit. Multistrike doesn't scale with DoC, but scales with everything else. Crit scales with everything except Regrowth, and is "worse" on anything where both it and multistrike apply. The thing is, I'd place a higher value on stronger Regrowths than on DoC - Regrowth is what you use to top low health people off, DoC is what you use as filler when the raid isn't really taking much damage, in between SotF/WG. For the "main engine," SotF + WG, Multistrike blows Crit away, and that's what really matters. Same goes for Tranq.

Not that it matters, because it is difficult to avoid taking a massive amount of multistrike gear anyway. So with that in mind, I would go with:

Haste >= Mastery > Multistrike > Crit = Versatility.

If it is Haste + Crit/Versatility and Mastery + Multistrike, for the most part I went with Haste + C/V versus Mastery + Multistrike per above (too much MS anyway so it begins to actually DR).

Build:

Here I agree that the SotF/WG build works best in general, either with Germination or RG (post 6.1), and using either DoC or possibly HotW (depending) as the 90 talent, for most of the reasons you put.

However, as you put later on yourself, I wouldn't discount the old "standard" build taking ToL/NV and primarily using Rejuv over WG. I believe it may/will have its place on certain fights, and I agreed with you that Blackhand is one of them.


[added] Also, you're correct that Versatility increases your damage, but so do all of the other stats, save Mastery. So Versatility loses even there. As "nitpicked" above, DoC does not double dip off of any stats.

[added, pt 2] Per above comment, actually, if you go with the "standard" build that uses NV and primarily Rejuv, Mastery will increase your DPS from the healing-to-damage component. It does not increase healing from the damage-to-healing component. Also, nothing double dips from NV as well.

[theburned]

No I am not terribly uninformed, there is even a disclaimer at the top stating that these are opinions, and I have all the right to share them whether you take them as right or wrong.

Yes I am well aware how smart heals work nowadays, but how can you not understand the chances of it doing little overhealing in comparison to a targeted hot are a lot higher? The mechanic of smart heals is mostly irrelevant here.

And no where did I say anything about unreliability of crit and multistrike. I only said Versatility isn't RNG and you have taken it on your own road trip. And anyway you didn't even conclude why you actually brought that up but only went into agreeing with me on DoC. (That is why I value crit slightly higher..) Not that it matters we dont want either.

So you've:

Pointed out nothing about our 2 worse stats only said an incredibly blurry sentence.
Disagreed about the tiniest boost (less than a tenth of a %) about versatility possibly double dipping.
Tried to illogically tell me the fact you think you know something about smart heals I don't. A instant smart heal will do less overhealing than a targetted hot in most situations. Fact.

Are you just nitpicking for the sake of ego because I think you've missed 99% of the content of the actual post.

Wheter or not you understand the concept of heals targetting random players does not make it okay to misinform others about it though.
The fact that it doesn't target a lower HP target means that the healing has a good chance to be useless wheter or not it overheals or not.
If versatility actually double dipped it would be almost on par with other skills, assuming DoC is around 10-15% of your healing, and because of the DR of the stat it would be a very valuable stat, but it doesn't so you keep misinforming people who want to read this.
You also specify this as a guide thus you should get your facts straight.
Comparing something which is a flat increase to something which is based on RNG is basically the same as calling something unreliable, especially if you consider it a stronger stat because of it.
Also from pretty much every log I've seen on DoC it has more overhealing than rejuvenation, while this has perfectly logical explanations though, the point is still that the healing has a high probability of being useless.

Also from 6.1 multistrike is our 2nd best stat for this build, as mastery doesn't increase healing from DoC thus its value loses around 10%, it will still stay above crit/versatility, but multistrike will be better, as of now haste is way better than haste also... more regrowth proccs, faster casts, which is very important in a non-mana build, its not even close to mastery.

I am nitpicking because you are using details that are flat out wrong, no discussion, and specified it as a guide rather than "what do you think of my build" thus any misinformation will come back to haunt this forum in the future.

Here comes a personal opinion, seems like I need to specify it since you seem to use it as "everything I say can't be criticized because its a personal opinion"
I don't like rampant growth because on a several fights the damage comes in bursts so you can get away with casting swiftmend 5 seconds before the actual damage, spam wrath until 1 sec before the damage comes in the cast WG. in those cases the talent is a hps loss. It can definitely be utilized on bosses like blast furnace, and probably kromag too, but I prefer germination.
To justify why I prefer germination, it increases your throughput during high damage phases, and in this build its considered a tool for us to convert mana into healing, ofc if you are not mana neutral with the build, the MoC will also be better.
hmm okay with this I can se how rampant growth can be utilized to some extent, it increases your bursty tank healing, and also lets you handle those long lasting damage phases.. it is a lot trickier to play with on the other hand.

[Loganess]

Wheter or not you understand the concept of heals targetting random players does not make it okay to misinform others about it though.
The fact that it doesn't target a lower HP target means that the healing has a good chance to be useless wheter or not it overheals or not.
If versatility actually double dipped it would be almost on par with other skills, assuming DoC is around 10-15% of your healing, and because of the DR of the stat it would be a very valuable stat, but it doesn't so you keep misinforming people who want to read this.
You also specify this as a guide thus you should get your facts straight.
Comparing something which is a flat increase to something which is based on RNG is basically the same as calling something unreliable, especially if you consider it a stronger stat because of it.
Also from pretty much every log I've seen on DoC it has more overhealing than rejuvenation, while this has perfectly logical explanations though, the point is still that the healing has a high probability of being useless.

Also from 6.1 multistrike is our 2nd best stat for this build, as mastery doesn't increase healing from DoC thus its value loses around 10%, it will still stay above crit/versatility, but multistrike will be better, as of now haste is way better than haste also... more regrowth proccs, faster casts, which is very important in a non-mana build, its not even close to mastery.

I am nitpicking because you are using details that are flat out wrong, no discussion, and specified it as a guide rather than "what do you think of my build" thus any misinformation will come back to haunt this forum in the future.

Here comes a personal opinion, seems like I need to specify it since you seem to use it as "everything I say can't be criticized because its a personal opinion"
I don't like rampant growth because on a several fights the damage comes in bursts so you can get away with casting swiftmend 5 seconds before the actual damage, spam wrath until 1 sec before the damage comes in the cast WG. in those cases the talent is a hps loss. It can definitely be utilized on bosses like blast furnace, and probably kromag too, but I prefer germination.
To justify why I prefer germination, it increases your throughput during high damage phases, and in this build its considered a tool for us to convert mana into healing, ofc if you are not mana neutral with the build, the MoC will also be better.
hmm okay with this I can se how rampant growth can be utilized to some extent, it increases your bursty tank healing, and also lets you handle those long lasting damage phases.. it is a lot trickier to play with on the other hand.

You are stupid to believe that an instant smart heal (regardless if its a dumb smart heal) will do more overhealing than a targeted hot. So again, I am not misinforming in anyway. We can agree to disagree on this matter, but stop going around saying someone is wrong if they disagree with you.

You are also stupid in your definition of guide. If a GUIDE dog attempts to take the blind person to the left, the blind person can still go right. A guide is an aid to your own decisions so please stop taking that the wrong way.

And why are you telling me about multistrike in 6.1 when I didn't say otherwise, like you are arguing against me? And effectively reposting what I have said.

[Thadenator]

Hey loganess

I really like your build and I also like your UI on your vod, I know this isn't really related but what are you using to track your lifebloom and its target? I'm assuming weak auras? If that's not the case what are you using? If it is, would you be willing to share your string?

[Loganess]

Hey loganess

I really like your build and I also like your UI on your vod, I know this isn't really related but what are you using to track your lifebloom and its target? I'm assuming weak auras? If that's not the case what are you using? If it is, would you be willing to share your string?

Heya

Yea, it's weak auras. 2 on top of each other in fact

dOt4caGELQQDrb2MsvSpLcMjf0CPKMnj3eqDBLStP0Er7gY(vk0pjOHbs(TKhtQHQuudwPsgov5GkvQdtLJrGZPuKf srTuLQYIPulNO)c0tvTmqQNRyIaKPkvtgetx48uIRQusptPIUoO2ifYwPqTzcTDaQplfxw00aqFhqmskItsvnpLsz8 kvPlPuQUfG0PH6Ekv4BkL41uKghamfWopM3hfPu0PtR(6cnw9Bngey8ObnjL2GgLkBvntT4hEOnakd2KbBHFXdHhc7 8He30Ks25NWPnfeJelEDbJcEzU43jFJSG9a1fmke6Lsxus(nWxabjePSqZ8WiCW3ilypEKBLGyKyX7PCws5W3ilypq DbJcEO4L5sOxkDrj532o4rUvoSZwb8gIftBvvlgm4vLdc78HtLOGD(fSkWSZGbVw5MHD(bJAujpG23w9bedE4jb1k3 m0mVSuj78lyvGzNbdE4jbhVutZ8JxQzNFWOgvYwaYGhEsqDTSDbnZlD6KD(fSkWSZGbdEXcfhV)KTceWdbpEkNLhoT Pd)2r8YSbxOUfVKhRle)eoTPZMlmk4nlS3fcmVdokAZJHWBiwmTvvT24U2ToWao53RqrXjd2cub7ba8wekkozWwGcn uaGhbV6sCttkh2kG3HWlxGle78t4Kb78EYCYGFuyiPDfrTyWGhcE8uol(6cX7JIuk60PvFDHgR(TgdcmE0GMKsBqJs LTQMPw86QuqkGGOzg8o25nelM2QQw8(OiLIoDA1xxOXQFRXGaJhnOjP0g0OuzRQzQfdEaZwbaeAOyqc

dGthdaGEfv1UKuSnH0mjv1CjfMnf3Ku0TvLDQc7fTBs2VkQ(juYFPKFdzOskzWQOmCc9yfoSGJjvohPYcLQwQIQSyf z5smmsPNcwgu1ZvAIqrnvPmzkLPt10iWvvuPNbvUUkTrfLTQIyZQQTdfCAI(oPkFwsMNIkgjuOVjeJwsPgVksNKGUL KQRrP68c1LfnoOuVgkYSJncb2iOV8Ntge6rqOYZYpmsneoqQvdHhNyPPChwymltwZsZKbTl6rNWsaFnARrxnri8iyJ Gn2imqguHnEGNhA5boolk(UOrWHlQwC4JGhFxu(RBpcDcXy9)B6Cw9i46WgNDCrXwNabcWfrl)1fyNqqjFbxIuSr4f Kk2i4XIjbXsUPtqSKB6ecgXAhQ11SjD6e8ISQklSry9Watws1hryGUkNaspfwktm7jCvsNqvbDfjOcVCzJhDe0x(Zj dc9OtOQGUIwd0v5e6iOcV0sQ(icIMqCwwcvf0v0AGUkhlXSeCuHWCOtWGc2yJGhmPYzJW7ACjB0Ptyyc7YgHvQQmjb mpV5keZ0jC30Ayc7YEcLWizJW7ACjB0Pt4UP1kMd2tyfZbBewPQYK8qaDc3nTgO3uWzpHcYKSr4DnUKn60jSY5NSr4 DnUKncIHIhZEcFuXJFbf7j4PI9eC9sLh)LyizpbxVu5XSNW3KNkNmj7PtNobBYv0eIbpmW0s48ZiuYkjs1IftcYbsr iCDeNiiTrqF5pNmi078Z0uURuvr4uS()nDoRUDDDA1f1Uo8A1HTUoSfWFDb2jOUVwrwvLLLhDeSjxrtiw4aPiiu5z5 hgPgchi1QHWJtS0uUdlmMLjRzPzYG2f9Otad8OtaET0jb

Here you go! Sometimes (and I can't for the life of me figure out why) it will say "Unknown" instead of the target it is on. You can fix it by reloading most of the time but obviously that's not viable when you're mid fight. So you just have to live with it

[Deleted]

I feel like you are overstating the overhealing of rejuvenation.When it comes to steady aoe dmg phases rejuvenation does very little overhealing(24% overhealing on my first hc gruul kill) and doc sounds really shit there, since it takes you almost 2 gcds to get out that 25-30k heal.DoC sounds great on longer fights like furnace(I tried it but it's kinda hard to keep wrating when your whole raid is taking dmg like crazy ) but let's not forget that it's mainly a mana conservation tool rather than a throughput one.
I believe DoC should only be used on long fights there's no reason to use it on a 4 min fight.Also when it comes to sotf I think it makes a great combo with DoC , mainly because DoC allows you to get more wild growths in.Anyway, guess since I haven't started mythic progress yet I guess I shouldn't be too absolute on this.
PS:This is a great post for theorycrafting thanks for sharing.

[Deleted]

You really just need to be very considerate of the fight and the rest of your healing team when deciding what to pick. My guild runs with an exceptionally good disc priest who ranks top 10 HPS on most heroic/mythic encounters, as well as 3 other healers who just unload before my Rejuvs tick. So, for me, going with a rejuv blanketing spec means 25% of incoming damage is absorbed before it happens and the bulk of the incoming damage that remains will get sniped by faster heals like Chain Heal and Uplift. As such if I want to have any meaningful contribution to HPS (which would tangibly translate to my healing partners being able to save mana), I will have to rely on WG getting people up quickly.

That situation may however be completely different for other players. If your setup doesn't have a particularly strong Disc player, your setup is stacked with Resto Druids and/or Holy Priests or you're underhealing due to DPS requirements, blanket Rejuving may very well be the only way you can cope with long-term damage encounters. The difference in play style as well as the strengths and weaknesses of a druid healer varies so much based on how you spec. So much so, honestly, that a SotF druid is less comparable to an Incarnation druid comparted to an Incarnation druid to a Holy priest. Really just don't be afraid to experiment with different resto druid specs on various fights.

[Thadenator]

Heya

Yea, it's weak auras. 2 on top of each other in fact

dOt4caGELQQDrb2MsvSpLcMjf0CPKMnj3eqDBLStP0Er7gY(vk0pjOHbs(TKhtQHQuudwPsgov5GkvQdtLJrGZPuKf srTuLQYIPulNO)c0tvTmqQNRyIaKPkvtgetx48uIRQusptPIUoO2ifYwPqTzcTDaQplfxw00aqFhqmskItsvnpLsz8 kvPlPuQUfG0PH6Ekv4BkL41uKghamfWopM3hfPu0PtR(6cnw9Bngey8ObnjL2GgLkBvntT4hEOnakd2KbBHFXdHhc7 8He30Ks25NWPnfeJelEDbJcEzU43jFJSG9a1fmke6Lsxus(nWxabjePSqZ8WiCW3ilypEKBLGyKyX7PCws5W3ilypq DbJcEO4L5sOxkDrj532o4rUvoSZwb8gIftBvvlgm4vLdc78HtLOGD(fSkWSZGbVw5MHD(bJAujpG23w9bedE4jb1k3 m0mVSuj78lyvGzNbdE4jbhVutZ8JxQzNFWOgvYwaYGhEsqDTSDbnZlD6KD(fSkWSZGbdEXcfhV)KTceWdbpEkNLhoT Pd)2r8YSbxOUfVKhRle)eoTPZMlmk4nlS3fcmVdokAZJHWBiwmTvvT24U2ToWao53RqrXjd2cub7ba8wekkozWwGcn uaGhbV6sCttkh2kG3HWlxGle78t4Kb78EYCYGFuyiPDfrTyWGhcE8uol(6cX7JIuk60PvFDHgR(TgdcmE0GMKsBqJs LTQMPw86QuqkGGOzg8o25nelM2QQw8(OiLIoDA1xxOXQFRXGaJhnOjP0g0OuzRQzQfdEaZwbaeAOyqc

dGthdaGEfv1UKuSnH0mjv1CjfMnf3Ku0TvLDQc7fTBs2VkQ(juYFPKFdzOskzWQOmCc9yfoSGJjvohPYcLQwQIQSyf z5smmsPNcwgu1ZvAIqrnvPmzkLPt10iWvvuPNbvUUkTrfLTQIyZQQTdfCAI(oPkFwsMNIkgjuOVjeJwsPgVksNKGUL KQRrP68c1LfnoOuVgkYSJncb2iOV8Ntge6rqOYZYpmsneoqQvdHhNyPPChwymltwZsZKbTl6rNWsaFnARrxnri8iyJ Gn2imqguHnEGNhA5boolk(UOrWHlQwC4JGhFxu(RBpcDcXy9)B6Cw9i46WgNDCrXwNabcWfrl)1fyNqqjFbxIuSr4f Kk2i4XIjbXsUPtqSKB6ecgXAhQ11SjD6e8ISQklSry9Watws1hryGUkNaspfwktm7jCvsNqvbDfjOcVCzJhDe0x(Zj dc9OtOQGUIwd0v5e6iOcV0sQ(icIMqCwwcvf0v0AGUkhlXSeCuHWCOtWGc2yJGhmPYzJW7ACjB0Ptyyc7YgHvQQmjb mpV5keZ0jC30Ayc7YEcLWizJW7ACjB0Pt4UP1kMd2tyfZbBewPQYK8qaDc3nTgO3uWzpHcYKSr4DnUKn60jSY5NSr4 DnUKncIHIhZEcFuXJFbf7j4PI9eC9sLh)LyizpbxVu5XSNW3KNkNmj7PtNobBYv0eIbpmW0s48ZiuYkjs1IftcYbsr iCDeNiiTrqF5pNmi078Z0uURuvr4uS()nDoRUDDDA1f1Uo8A1HTUoSfWFDb2jOUVwrwvLLLhDeSjxrtiw4aPiiu5z5 hgPgchi1QHWJtS0uUdlmMLjRzPzYG2f9Otad8OtaET0jb

Here you go! Sometimes (and I can't for the life of me figure out why) it will say "Unknown" instead of the target it is on. You can fix it by reloading most of the time but obviously that's not viable when you're mid fight. So you just have to live with it

Sorry it took me so long to respond! For some reason I wasn't able to import the logs, I think they were partial strings instead of the full strings or am I just failing at copy paste?

[Loganess]

Hmm, yea they aren't actually copyable, sorry for that.

Try these

http://pastebin.com/xnKJercL

http://pastebin.com/FirsdngC

[Thadenator]

Perfect! You're awesome and thank you!

[Loganess]

5/10M as of tonight, updated the original post with how I went about each fight.

Although it is still a my favourite playstyle and I start every fight with the DoC build before experimenting, the reality of progress and the strategies of my own guild have suggested against it 60% of the time (so far).

Watch this space

[Deleted]

I like to play around with the specs for each boss and so far I've only felt DoC being rly useful on furnace, iron maidens, flamebender and beastlord and very few times I've felt HotW was needed I tried it out for blackhand hc, however I came to the conclusion that it wasnt needed unless every1 fucked up with the movement in p1. I could use it but it would only help me to meter whore rather than being useful when needed, therefore i often use NV to bring more usefulness to the raid. However on mythic blackhand it might very well be required to use HotW tranq in p1.

I must admit i rly enjoy playing with DoC + SotF but sometimes the other alternatives have been working better for me. I have also had greater success with reju and have always liked the heavy hot playstyle of druid but it depends on boss fight and your healing team. Its gonna be fun trying out rampant and MoC keep me updated with your findings when the patch is released.

I also wanna touch upon the choices of glyphs since im currently running with wild growth, rebirth and regrowth and feel like the HT glyph usually feels like a waste and I rather switch the regrowth glyph back and forth with roar for the fights that require it. Usually the regrowth glyph has been working quite well especially when healing the tanks with a good chance of getting a living seed. You lose very little healing from the regrowth hot and it simply feels more reliable for those tough situations.

Have a good day ppl!

[Deleted]

I like to play around with the specs for each boss and so far I've only felt DoC being rly useful on furnace, iron maidens, flamebender and beastlord and very few times I've felt HotW was needed I tried it out for blackhand hc, however I came to the conclusion that it wasnt needed unless every1 fucked up with the movement in p1. I could use it but it would only help me to meter whore rather than being useful when needed, therefore i often use NV to bring more usefulness to the raid. However on mythic blackhand it might very well be required to use HotW tranq in p1.

This does not make a lot of sense.

NV basicly has no value, its just like Ysera's gift having no value at all. The little it heals people is so low that its only padding meters.
And using Heart on last phase of blackhand will always be usefull because of the fact that other healers can chill more then aswell.

[Deleted]

Tranq with HotW in both p1 and p3 is a not needed and the healers can be calm with just a normal tranq unless as I stated the people fuck up with the movement in p1. The tranq in p3 is more than enough to keep every1 topped. What we had issues with was p2 and then the extra 450k + healing was worth taking to keep the raid stable.

[Ctee]

Is it fair enough to then say you should really only be choosing between HotW and DoC? When DoC isn't viable (too much movement), always go with HotW? Youre probably doing more damage with HotW vs NV if you pop it at the start of a fight, then use it in conjunction with your healing CD's (ToL/Tranq) when it's up a second time.

I notice a lot of top druids choose NV, it just seems lackluster. For what it's worth, a lot seem to choose ToL no matter the fight.

And some food for thought, if people entertain the idea of getting buffed MoC, you probably would favor HotW > DoC, possibly.

[nightfalls]

Is it fair enough to then say you should really only be choosing between HotW and DoC? When DoC isn't viable (too much movement), always go with HotW? Youre probably doing more damage with HotW vs NV if you pop it at the start of a fight, then use it in conjunction with your healing CD's (ToL/Tranq) when it's up a second time.

I notice a lot of top druids choose NV, it just seems lackluster. For what it's worth, a lot seem to choose ToL no matter the fight.

You would use NV with a rejuv-using build which also takes ToL. If you do so, NV is all passive damage and almost as much as HotW spam which requires you not to heal for the entire 45 second duration, and give up the 35% healing bonus as well.

[Sprucelee]

I would never go DoC. The only fight I have considered it worthwhile was Imperator, but even then I did not prefer it. That was a unique fight where the first 2 phases became almost meaningless as the healers learned to autopilot through it, and in the end the mana savings (to that degree) were really not needed that bad. Going into the second transition I was full mana after a channel pot either way. Frankly, DoC is the worst form of healing, you have no control if it hits a 99% target or a 50% target.The lack of control is just not worth the mediocre at best DPS, and minimal healing for what really amounts to mana savings. If you are in an environment where you feel DoC is safe to use, you probably have too many healers to begin with.

I personally have been learning towards HoTW, I am just finding that it has more opportunities to really impact progression as a raid CD. Oddly, for DPS checks like Gruul, I am leaning towards NV; the passive DPS while increasing (and not impacting) healing is nice. On a fight with so little overhealing, NV is certainly not a "padding" talent. In practice it does about 80%-100% of the damage as a HotW on a fight of that length. The only fight where it was clearly better for DPS in T17 was Butcher, but that was because of how short the fight was versus NV usages. HoTW may be useful on "spine" like DPS checks as they come, really short fights like Butcher (or challenge modes), but for now I consider it a HPS CD.

As for ToL versus SotF, that comes down to personal mana regen and the fight mechanics. If there is steady damage to the raid, and you can ensure llittle overhealing, AND you can manage the resources, go SotF. If mana is more of a concern, or there is more "bursty" portions of the fight, then go ToL. ToL can particularly be effective when combined with HoTW if there is a very difficult part of a fight you need to overcome, for instance, the end of Beastlord is one that it can help power through with big instant regrowths, heavy rejuv coverage, and a monster tranq.

As for the final tier, germination is the clear winner. We are just not at a point yet where RG and heavy Swiftmend usage is worth the cost, or that the play-style is really sustainable versus the HPM/HPC that germination adds. Post 6.1 and the SM buff, it may start to get people thinking and trying it more, so we will have to wait and see. And once we have 4PC (and optimal gear/trinkets), it may also make this more of an option, but Rampant Growth as a real progression option is on hold for now IMO.

[Loganess]

I would never go DoC. The only fight I have considered it worthwhile was Imperator, but even then I did not prefer it. That was a unique fight where the first 2 phases became almost meaningless as the healers learned to autopilot through it, and in the end the mana savings (to that degree) were really not needed that bad. Going into the second transition I was full mana after a channel pot either way. Frankly, DoC is the worst form of healing, you have no control if it hits a 99% target or a 50% target.The lack of control is just not worth the mediocre at best DPS, and minimal healing for what really amounts to mana savings. If you are in an environment where you feel DoC is safe to use, you probably have too many healers to begin with.

I personally have been learning towards HoTW, I am just finding that it has more opportunities to really impact progression as a raid CD. Oddly, for DPS checks like Gruul, I am leaning towards NV; the passive DPS while increasing (and not impacting) healing is nice. On a fight with so little overhealing, NV is certainly not a "padding" talent. In practice it does about 80%-100% of the damage as a HotW on a fight of that length. The only fight where it was clearly better for DPS in T17 was Butcher, but that was because of how short the fight was versus NV usages. HoTW may be useful on "spine" like DPS checks as they come, really short fights like Butcher (or challenge modes), but for now I consider it a HPS CD.

As for ToL versus SotF, that comes down to personal mana regen and the fight mechanics. If there is steady damage to the raid, and you can ensure llittle overhealing, AND you can manage the resources, go SotF. If mana is more of a concern, or there is more "bursty" portions of the fight, then go ToL. ToL can particularly be effective when combined with HoTW if there is a very difficult part of a fight you need to overcome, for instance, the end of Beastlord is one that it can help power through with big instant regrowths, heavy rejuv coverage, and a monster tranq.

As for the final tier, germination is the clear winner. We are just not at a point yet where RG and heavy Swiftmend usage is worth the cost, or that the play-style is really sustainable versus the HPM/HPC that germination adds. Post 6.1 and the SM buff, it may start to get people thinking and trying it more, so we will have to wait and see. And once we have 4PC (and optimal gear/trinkets), it may also make this more of an option, but Rampant Growth as a real progression option is on hold for now IMO.

If you have never considered DoC you are still in the old fashioned druid mindset, which probably means you a stubborn to see any different. The fact you refer to it as "unsafe" means you've missed the actual concept of why its a good build.

[Sprucelee]

If you have never considered DoC you are still in the old fashioned druid mindset, which probably means you a stubborn to see any different. The fact you refer to it as "unsafe" means you've missed the actual concept of why its a good build.

I have used all the talents pretty extensively in testing, and have decided that DoC in particular it is not worth it from either a DPS or Healing perspective.

The main flaw with your DoC play-style is lack of CONTROL, and loss of DPS (if needed). Leaning too heavily on WG and DoC, and their "dumb" smart healing, should be done carefully. The scenarios where the new smart healing model generally has low enough over-healing are also ones where raw HPS is also typically needed, and NV or HotW would be better choices. SotF in itself can be a solid choice, but only if you can justify losing the mana reduction from ToL, and over-healing (where 90-99% "bad" targets are uncommon) is not an issue. The latter may be comp specific.

Call me "old fashioned", so be it. I value experience

Lets look at one fight I really question the choice of DoC on, Gruul. Your log is actually exactly as I would expect from my testing, below average DPS and only average HPS. NV would have netted at least 1-2K more DPS, HotW up to 2-3K more, with NV at least equal to your DoC HPS. Additionally, even with all that DoC spam (which still had ~30% overhealing) it appears that you OOMed with 40 seconds left in the fight. I have to disagree with DoC for that fight from both a DPS/HPS perspective, and your log confirms that for me.

On a side note; I would have also used ToL instead of SotF. It would have been nice for the 30 seconds or so leading into the first rampage (started 40 second prior) and for the full 2nd rampage; the mobility of regrowth saves, wider WG coverage, and the rejuv Mana CD would have been nice. As seeing you went OoM at 5:23 (8k mana) and stated that you use rejuv heavily during rampage, it would have fit your spell selection. Also, considering SotF+WG had ~50% over-healing, it feels like SotF was not really benefiting you.

Edit: BTW, the one fight you did get a "99th percentile" rank (GZ BTW), was where you also recommended using: HotW + ToL + Germ (Oregorger); which is what I also recommended as a solid choice for BRF progression

[Loganess]

I have used all the talents pretty extensively in testing, and have decided that DoC in particular it is not worth it from either a DPS or Healing perspective.

The main flaw with your DoC play-style is lack of CONTROL, and loss of DPS (if needed). Leaning too heavily on WG and DoC, and their "dumb" smart healing, should be done carefully. The scenarios where the new smart healing model generally has low enough over-healing are also ones where raw HPS is also typically needed, and NV or HotW would be better choices. SotF in itself can be a solid choice, but only if you can justify losing the mana reduction from ToL, and over-healing (where 90-99% "bad" targets are uncommon) is not an issue. The latter may be comp specific.

Call me "old fashioned", so be it. I value experience

Lets look at one fight I really question the choice of DoC on, Gruul. Your log is actually exactly as I would expect from my testing, below average DPS and only average HPS. NV would have netted at least 1-2K more DPS, HotW up to 2-3K more, with NV at least equal to your DoC HPS. Additionally, even with all that DoC spam (which still had ~30% overhealing) it appears that you OOMed with 40 seconds left in the fight. I have to disagree with DoC for that fight from both a DPS/HPS perspective, and your log confirms that for me.

On a side note; I would have also used ToL instead of SotF. It would have been nice for the 30 seconds or so leading into the first rampage (started 40 second prior) and for the full 2nd rampage; the mobility of regrowth saves, wider WG coverage, and the rejuv Mana CD would have been nice. As seeing you went OoM at 5:23 (8k mana) and stated that you use rejuv heavily during rampage, it would have fit your spell selection. Also, considering SotF+WG had ~50% over-healing, it feels like SotF was not really benefiting you.

Edit: BTW, the one fight you did get a "99th percentile" rank (GZ BTW), was where you also recommended using: HotW + ToL + Germ (Oregorger); which is what I also recommended as a solid choice for BRF progression

You are missing the reality of what progress is and seem to be focusing only on numbers, which is for granted if you spend more time posting on MMO than you do progressing. Remember that the original post was written before BRF mythic even started so you are late for the bus on this one in terms of my ranks. It is not unheard of that many high logs on several fights have favoured the DoC playstyle. The lack of "control" you imply is incredibly biased towards rejuv, having total control. And tell me in the reality of progress, when does it matter if your lack of control is when the raid is 90% anyway. Ah right, because those numbers matter in that situation by your logic.

You can disagree as much as you want, but i've noticed you around here as all bark and no bite. You are missing the whole concept of what the healing role actually is and focusing on the numbers.

As I have shown, my recommendations are very versatile in what may be needed on the encounter and I can tell you for a fact that several druids have had success in the DoC build. If you are too stubborn to even change the way you think I feel sorry for your ignorance. Your negative testing on DoC was most likely because you were playing it wrong.